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Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XLVI

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Tawnos said:
I don’t want him in Hartford either.
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Why?

He can be used in a similar fashion to the way he was used last season in Hartford to prevent him to blocking someone who should be getting regular minutes. I doubt we're going to have crazy ass forward depth down there anyway.

Smith isn't really the problem contract on this team. Not only is there versatility in the way he can be used, we're not forced to keep him with the NHL club.
 
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ZuccsFluffierFluffer said:
Why?

He can be used in a similar fashion to the way he was used last season in Hartford to prevent him to blocking someone who should be getting regular minutes. I doubt we're going to have crazy ass forward depth down there anyway.

Smith isn't really the problem contract on this team. Not only is there versatility in the way he can be used, we're not forced to keep him with the NHL club.
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As long as he’s on either team, he’s taking a roster spot that would better serve the organization, long-term, by going to literally anyone else. Whether that’s on D or at F.
 
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SA16 said:
We disagree on Smith. I think he's a good versatile player and not a bad influence. You do not.

I definitely do not want to lock up cap space 2-3 seasons for now for reasons like getting him off the team.
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We don’t actually disagree about Smith at all.
 
Tawnos said:
As long as he’s on either team, he’s taking a roster spot that would better serve the organization, long-term, by going to literally anyone else. Whether that’s on D or at F.
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Who is he blocking in Hartford? Their roster is going to be a few prospects and then like 13 non prospects or something. He can play wing or defense. Does it really matter if he takes a roster spot that was previously going to Bobby Butler, Matt Beleskey, Shawn O'Donnell, Connoro Brickley, Rob O'Gara, Shawn St. Amant, or Josh Wesley?
 
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I would definitely rather line up the kids next to Derrick Brassard than Ryan Strome.

It’s annoying, we have some many guys that just aren’t good fits. Don’t think Strome makes sense when we have Chytil/Howden/ Lias and even Boo, he doesn’t lift his linemates. Smith? We have a LD log-jam. Shatty, worst possible fit. Three kids playing the same position and all 4 having the same flaws... Names? Plays with his head under his arm, don’t provide any structure, it’s the opposite. Not what you want on a young team from a ‘vet’

Like 1/3 of the roster are misfits who don’t do any good. Would much rather see us dump all those 5 and like sign Brassard on a 1y deal and McQuiad as a 6/7 D on a 1 year deal. Deal Kreider for a pick.

Kravy-Ziba-Buch
Howden-Brassard-Kakko
Lemieux-Chytil-Vesey
Belesky-Boo-Fast
Staal-TDA
Skjei-Fox/Pionk
Hajak-McQ/Pionk
Claesson

Lias in HFD.
 
Tawnos said:
Buying out a player now isn’t about cap space.
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And we’d all likely agree... IF it weren’t for the fact that cap space IS likely to matter in ‘21 and ‘22, when hopefully we’ll a) be competing for the Cup and b) have young players in need of major raises.

I don’t want to be where Toronto is now then.
 
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SA16 said:
Who is he blocking in Hartford? Their roster is going to be a few prospects and then like 13 non prospects or something. He can play wing or defense. Does it really matter if he takes a roster spot that was previously going to Bobby Butler, Matt Beleskey, Shawn O'Donnell, Connoro Brickley, Rob O'Gara, Shawn St. Amant, or Josh Wesley?
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I don’t think you have the numbers right there. There is likely to be at least 13 prospects on our AHL squad next year.

On top of those guys, you want to bring in legit AHL vets for which there is no concern about how they will respond to being in the minors. And despite liking Smith as a player, I definitely have that concern. I also have concerns with putting a guy who has discipline problems in a mentorship type of role. Again, this despite me liking the player.
 
Tawnos said:
As long as he’s on either team, he’s taking a roster spot that would better serve the organization, long-term, by going to literally anyone else. Whether that’s on D or at F.
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I think that applies to more than just Smith then.

There is someone else on the D at the current moment who is worse than Smith and is blocking a spot from more deserving players.
 
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Tawnos said:
I don’t think you have the numbers right there. There is likely to be at least 13 prospects on our AHL squad next year.

On top of those guys, you want to bring in legit AHL vets for which there is no concern about how they will respond to being in the minors. And despite liking Smith as a player, I definitely have that concern. I also have concerns with putting a guy who has discipline problems in a mentorship type of role. Again, this despite me liking the player.
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13 legit prospects? On the team that was 4th worst in the AHL last year? Outside of the defenseman there is basically nothing. There's not really a single impact forward prospect on the roster. If he's blocking a guy who may eventually just become a 4th line wing who cares. Defense has some good prospects but Smith can play wing so that's fine. And we already saw him play in the AHL two years ago and there weren't those concerns (he did get into a fight with Lettieri there but I don't think that's a big deal you see teammate fights in nfl training camps all the time for example).
 
ZuccsFluffierFluffer said:
I think that applies to more than just Smith then.

There is someone else on the D at the current moment who is worse than Smith and is blocking a spot from more deserving players.
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It’s about the whole picture, not single statements. Weighing the cap pain of a buyout versus the potential contribution of the player to the long-term of the rebuild. So if you’re implying Staal here, he makes an intangible contribution that outweighs the value of simply losing him from the organization. That intangible contribution outweighs the value of opening up the spot. If you’re implying Shattenkirk, the extent of the cap pain looms larger because of the prohibitive size of the year 2 cap hit. There would be benefit to getting him out of the org, but it doesn’t outweigh how big that dead cap hit would be.

Smith, on the other hand, doesn’t contribute anything to the long-term of the rebuild, doesn’t have prohibitive costs attached to his buy out, and losing him from the org would be a positive. To me, it’s pretty clearly a good move and the only one of these that is.

He’s a good player and a versatile one, but he has negative value to the Rangers right now that can be addressed with minimal pain.
 
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SA16 said:
13 legit prospects? On the team that was 4th worst in the AHL last year? Outside of the defenseman there is basically nothing. There's not really a single impact forward prospect on the roster. If he's blocking a guy who may eventually just become a 4th line wing who cares. Defense has some good prospects but Smith can play wing so that's fine. And we already saw him play in the AHL two years ago and there weren't those concerns (he did get into a fight with Lettieri there but I don't think that's a big deal you see teammate fights in nfl training camps all the time for example).
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Uh, there were absolutely those concerns when he was down there. Watching him play in the AHL (which I did) was awful.

The AHL roster will have Elmer, Meskanen, Gettinger, Fontaine, Newell, Ronning, Gropp, and Jones vying for forward spots. Are those top prospects? No, but the organization would still be better served by giving those guys playing time over Smith.
 
Tawnos said:
I don’t think you have the numbers right there. There is likely to be at least 13 prospects on our AHL squad next year.

On top of those guys, you want to bring in legit AHL vets for which there is no concern about how they will respond to being in the minors. And despite liking Smith as a player, I definitely have that concern. I also have concerns with putting a guy who has discipline problems in a mentorship type of role. Again, this despite me liking the player.
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Good ones though? Ones with an actual future in the NHL?

Let's go through the list of HFD players signed by the Rangers:
Meskanen - Maybe
Elmer - Unknown/rookie pro
Gropp - No
Newell - Unknown/rookie pro
Ronning - Probably not
Leedahl - No
Fontaine - Bottom 6 maybe
Gettinger - Bottom 6 maybe
Fogarty - No
Lettieri - 4A AHL guy and nothing more

Lindgren - Maybe
Keane - Unknown/rookie pro
Crawley - No
Day - No
Raddysh - No
Bergman - No
Bigras - Maybe

Kravstov/Rykov/One of Kakko or Hughes are either going to be in the NHL or down in the AHL for a short time. Smith wouldn't even be blocking them because they'd slot higher in the lineup than Smith anyway. If anything, they'd push Smith out.

Those are the F/D signed by the Rangers who will probably be on the HFD roster this upcoming season (except the last 3 and Lettieri/Bigras/Bergman who are RFAs)

You cannot pick 13 of those names and say they are legit prospects. You realistically have 2 forwards and no defensemen that Smith would be "blocking" and those forwards aren't even A) knocking socks off in the AHL and B) not knocking socks off even in sheltered NHL minutes.

No one named above are going to be better than Smith is for the Rangers as a forward or defenseman. So he's not blocking anyone.
 
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My biggest reason for buying out smith is not having to read about how we should buy him lol. He isn’t blocking anyone. He isn’t going to play and you aren’t keeping one if the young LHD in the press box..

If you want to talk about removing Staal or Shattenkirk that’s a different story cause they will play and could block someone. But buying out smith is just for the sake of buying him out.

If you wait till next year the dead space is only for 1 year not 2
 
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Tawnos said:
Uh, there were absolutely those concerns when he was down there. Watching him play in the AHL (which I did) was awful.

The AHL roster will have Elmer, Meskanen, Gettinger, Fontaine, Newell, Ronning, Gropp, and Jones vying for forward spots. Are those top prospects? No, but the organization would still be better served by giving those guys playing time over Smith.
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These guys are not really prospects. That's four undrafted players, one 2nd round pick who is a bust, and a few late round picks. Even if Smith wasn't there it is very unlikely all of those guys are in the lineup together. The most likely scenario is none of those guys ever turn into anything valuable. They are young players who play in the AHL not really guys with a significant NHL future. Every AHL team has guys like that. I would argue the opposite that Smith has more value to the organization playing and establishing some semblance of trade value at some point this year or next.
 
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Why do we want Corey Perry and his 8.625 cap hit for 2 more years? 10 points in 31 games this season.
 
SA16 said:
These guys are not really prospects. That's four undrafted players, one 2nd round pick who is a bust, and a few late round picks. Even if Smith wasn't there it is very unlikely all of those guys are in the lineup together. The most likely scenario is none of those guys ever turn into anything valuable. They are young players who play in the AHL not really guys with a significant NHL future.
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Long shot prospects are still prospects. No disagreement that they’re unlikely to manifest into NHL players, but that’s entirely beside the point.
 
Tawnos said:
Uh, there were absolutely those concerns when he was down there. Watching him play in the AHL (which I did) was awful.

The AHL roster will have Elmer, Meskanen, Gettinger, Fontaine, Newell, Ronning, Gropp, and Jones vying for forward spots. Are those top prospects? No, but the organization would still be better served by giving those guys playing time over Smith.
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This feels as bad of as reason for buying out Smith as the cap hits in years 3 and 4 being the reason to not buy him out
 
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I’d be happy to be wrong but I think people waiting for us to clear out all these vets are going to be disappointed. I don’t see them clearing spots so kids are handed spots. The kids need to come into camp and win spots. If they can’t beat out the crappy vets we have they shouldn’t be here...

We as fans just need to have faith that when the kids show they are ready the team will find ways to move guys
 
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Tawnos said:
Long shot prospects are still prospects. No disagreement that they’re unlikely to manifest into NHL players, but that’s entirely beside the point.
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He also doesn't really even block them. On a team with 12 younger AHL players and one veteran if you had a different healthy scratch every game and nobody ever got injured they all would end up with 70 or 71 games played out of a 76 game season.
 
Leetch3 said:
I’d be happy to be wrong but I think people waiting for us to clear out all these vets are going to be disappointed. I don’t see them clearing spots so kids are handed spots. The kids need to come into camp and win spots. If they can’t beat out the crappy vets we have they shouldn’t be here...

We as fans just need to have faith that when the kids show they are ready the team will find ways to move guys
Click to expand...

Smith is really the only one I feel this way about. He’s entirely useless to the team and buying him out is such low impact that it makes sense to me. It’s also not like I’m going to be upset if they don’t.

Also, I don’t consider it handing a spot to kids if the kids have to beat each other out for said spots, which is what the situation would be if the only 2 LHD vets we had in the organization were Skjei and Staal.
 
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