If you were the GM.....Crosby, Ovechkin, Or McDavid?

[PamBallam]

I think people sometimes forget just how good young Sid was. Dude was putting up 100 points with Chris Kunitz, Pascal Dupuis, Bill Guerin, and Colby Armstrong as wingers.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Crosby is a franchise changer in every way. Sullivan has even said he changes the way the team practices compared to when he's out. I would honestly take him even knowing about his freak long term injuries, let alone imagining a full healthy career. Unparalleled work ethic and a winner through and through.

 

[Midnight Judges]

"Knowing what we know now" excludes McDavid for the time being IMO. He could very well pass Crosby or even Ovechkin by the time all is said and done, but as of this date, his total career value is nowhere near Sidney Crosby's or Ovechkin's. McDavid could get hit by a bus tomorrow, in which case his value to the franchise is not even close to what Ovie and Crosby have contributed.

Ovechkin's contributions are also demonstrably higher than Crosby's. He's the greatest goal scorer of all time and it's contributed to a ton of winning. Crosby is an all time great player but he just can't touch what Ovechkin has achieved.

1. Ovechkin
2. Crosby
3. McDavid

 

[Midnight Judges]

I think people sometimes forget just how good young Sid was. Dude was putting up 100 points with Chris Kunitz, Pascal Dupuis, Bill Guerin, and Colby Armstrong as wingers.

Kunitz was a 25 goal/60 point player before ever putting on a Pens jersey and Dupuis was a 50 point / 20 goal defensive forward in the thick of the DPE before ever playing with Sid. They're not a hinderance. In fact those guys took on the defensive assignments so Sid didn't have to.

Guerin and Armstrong weren't even Pens for very long. Not worth mentioning any more than other notable Crosby teammates Sergei Gonchar (potential hall of famer) or Mark Recchi (hall of famer).

Nevermind that Crosby was playing extensively with the clear cut 3rd best player of the generation (Evgeny Malkin), playing in front of a hall of fame goal tender (MAF), and with a hall of fame defenseman (Letang).

This narrative that Sidney Crosby - whose team has a massively winning record without him on the ice - was hindered by team talent is a wild history revision.

 

[tabness]

I'd just quit if these powderpuff era scrubs were my choices

 

[Canadiens Ghost]

Crosby. The most complete, true leader.
McDavid. Wouldn't blame anyone for preferring him, insane talent.



Ovechkin.

 

[paracord]

"Knowing what we know now" excludes McDavid for the time being IMO. He could very well pass Crosby or even Ovechkin by the time all is said and done, but as of this date, his total career value is nowhere near Sidney Crosby's or Ovechkin's. McDavid could get hit by a bus tomorrow, in which case his value to the franchise is not even close to what Ovie and Crosby have contributed.

Ovechkin's contributions are also demonstrably higher than Crosby's. He's the greatest goal scorer of all time and it's contributed to a ton of winning. Crosby is an all time great player but he just can't touch what Ovechkin has achieved.

1. Ovechkin
2. Crosby
3. McDavid

I don't think he's the greatest goal scorer of all time, but he's up there. He's certainly a better goal scorer than Crosby and McDavid.

But as far as contributions, Crosby scores more points, plays a 200 foot game better, and has won more.

I'm not sure how that could constitute more contributions.

 

[paracord]

Kunitz was a 25 goal/60 point player before ever putting on a Pens jersey and Dupuis was a 50 point / 20 goal defensive forward in the thick of the DPE before ever playing with Sid. They're not a hinderance. In fact those guys took on the defensive assignments so Sid didn't have to.

Guerin and Armstrong weren't even Pens for very long. Not worth mentioning any more than other notable Crosby teammates Sergei Gonchar (potential hall of famer) or Mark Recchi (hall of famer).

Nevermind that Crosby was playing extensively with the clear cut 3rd best player of the generation (Evgeny Malkin), playing in front of a hall of fame goal tender (MAF), and with a hall of fame defenseman (Letang).

This narrative that Sidney Crosby - whose team has a massively winning record without him on the ice - was hindered by team talent is a wild history revision.

Ha. I'd argue MAF kept Crosby from winning MORE.

He was riding the pine when Crosby won 2 of his 3 cups, and was playing when he lost his only cup final. He also contributed to a lot of early exits in some of those earlier years for the Crosby/Malkin/Letang era!

 

[paracord]

Surprising poll. I was expecting it to be fairly even.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

You pretty easily leave Ovechkin out of this. McDavid and Crosby should have been the poll.

Surprised to see Crosby with a lead that big. Figured McDavid would have a slight advantage.

Disservice to Ovechkin to even be put with these two. Wouldn’t expect any sane GM to take him over two much more complete players. Although he is arguably the best at one particular aspect of hockey.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Slight edge for Crosby over McDavid

I feel like McDavid is the more talented of the two but Crosby is, at this point, a living legend, and a certified winner. He's more than just a great hockey player, like, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if/when Crosby will receive some sorts of Order in Canada

Ovechkin at 3 ain't a slight against him, it's just that he's up against impossible competition

 

[Midnight Judges]

I don't think he's the greatest goal scorer of all time, but he's up there. He's certainly a better goal scorer than Crosby and McDavid.

Feel free to throw out a name, but nobody has a case against Ovechkin for the greatest goal scorer. Peak, prime, longevity - Ovie is top 1 or 2 of all 3 categories.

Here's a bunch of data from 4 years ago, and Ovie has only added to it since then:

 

[Midnight Judges]

But as far as contributions, Crosby scores more points, plays a 200 foot game better, and has won more.

Crosby's defense is not even a net good, let alone a discriminator against one of the most physical players in hockey history. Nobody claimed Crosby was great at defense until he was no longer in contention for the Art Ross. It's a media narrative designed to compensate for his decline. Nothing more.

Crosby does not penalty kill in any substantial way. He takes the vast majority of his starts in the offensive zone and he's never shut anyone down. Opposing elite players have no problem scoring with Crosby on the ice.

Here in real life, Crosby's career on-ice defensive results are nearly identical to Ovechkin's, and nowhere near the actual great defensive players (like Datsyuk, Bergeron, etc.).

 

[paracord]

You pretty easily leave Ovechkin out of this. McDavid and Crosby should have been the poll.

Surprised to see Crosby with a lead that big. Figured McDavid would have a slight advantage.

Disservice to Ovechkin to even be put with these two. Wouldn’t expect any sane GM to take him over two much more complete players. Although he is arguably the best at one particular aspect of hockey.

He's the most often compared player to Crosby and is about to break a MAJOR record. Interesting to see the community thoughts. I think it would have been dismissive to leave him out. Lots of people swear he's the best player ever outside of Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, and Orr.

 

[paracord]

Feel free to throw out a name, but nobody has a case against Ovechkin for the greatest goal scorer. Peak, prime, longevity - Ovie is top 1 or 2 of all 3 categories.

Here's a bunch of data from 4 years ago, and Ovie has only added to it since then:

View attachment 985545

Sorry, but I disagree. Ovi is fantastic, but Lemieux is the best goal scorer ever. He scored at a way higher clip than Ovi, and could score goals in many more ways than Ovi.

No one would choose Ovi over Lemieux if you needed a breakaway to save your life.

But, I give Ovi tons of credit. He's an iron horse way more durable than Lemieux and he's been very consistent.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ha. I'd argue MAF kept Crosby from winning MORE.

He was riding the pine when Crosby won 2 of his 3 cups,

More like 1.5.

MAF played a solid 2 rounds in '16-17.

 

[MoneyManny]

You pretty easily leave Ovechkin out of this. McDavid and Crosby should have been the poll.

Surprised to see Crosby with a lead that big. Figured McDavid would have a slight advantage.

Disservice to Ovechkin to even be put with these two. Wouldn’t expect any sane GM to take him over two much more complete players. Although he is arguably the best at one particular aspect of hockey.

Prime Ovie was a wrecking ball, he influenced the game a lot more than just by his goals.

 

[paracord]

Crosby's defense is not even a net good, let alone a discriminator against one of the most physical players in hockey history. Nobody claimed Crosby was great at defense until he was no longer in contention for the Art Ross. It's a media narrative designed to compensate for his decline. Nothing more.

Crosby does not penalty kill in any substantial way. He takes the vast majority of his starts in the offensive zone and he's never shut anyone down. Opposing elite players have no problem scoring with Crosby on the ice.

Here in real life, Crosby's career on-ice defensive results are nearly identical to Ovechkin's, and nowhere near the actual great defensive players (like Datsyuk, Bergeron, etc.).

I mean, you have the right to your opinion. But, look at the poll.

Ovi is a very one-dimensional player. He's fantastic at that one dimension, but if he's not scoring goals, he's pretty non-existant. Crosby is a centerman that influences the game more than Ovi.

And he scores more. I'm not sure how accouting for more scoring, winning 3x as many cups, etc would count against Crosby.

But, this is why I included Ovi in this poll. A lot of people feel the way you do. I admit, the guy who scores the most goals in history is a very valuable asset on a team!

More like 1.5.

MAF played a solid 2 rounds in '16-17.

Fair. He contributed. But he was cuckoo in 10-12, and was benched as soon as possible in 15, 16 and 17.

MAF gets very over-inflated by people who didn't watch him play every night.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Sorry, but I disagree. Ovi is fantastic, but Lemieux is the best goal scorer ever. He scored at a way higher clip than Ovi, and could score goals in many more ways than Ovi.

You didn't even read the stats I provided. You responded way too quickly. Take a minute and look at them. Ovie is pretty clearly above everyone else in goal scoring - which is why he's on the verge of setting the all time record despite playing almost entirely in a lower scoring era (which is nuts and shouldn't be possible).

Lemieux led the NHL in goals a paltry 3 times. Ovie did it 9 times. It takes some real mental gymnastics to try and elevate 3 to be above 9.

In terms of adjusting for era, Ovechkin sustained a higher GPG for hundreds more games than Lemieux.

Even if we grant Lemieux the fantasy of extrapolating GPG, Ovechkin led the NHL in GPG 9 times to Lemieux's 6.

Ovechkin's peak season also adjusts higher than Lemieux's peak.

So no, there is no case for Mario Lemieux. Not even close.

 

[jaywills1020]

Crosby is the more complete player and a proven winner at every F’n level. As a rangers fan who hates him, I take him 10 times out of 10.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ovi is a very one-dimensional player.

No. He isn't.

Ovechkin is top 4 all time in hits. Top 3 of his generation. He might actually end his career #1 all time.

Ovechkin is also to 56th all time in raw assists, 41st all time in era-adjusted assists, and top 10 in his own generation in assists.

Also, Ovechkin is the greatest goal scorer of all time.

^^^That's 3 undeniable dimensions right there.

Ovechkin is nearing top 10 all time in raw points. He is currently 5th all time in era adjusted points.

Calling that "one dimensional" is demonstrably false. In fact it is downright absurd.

 

[jaywills1020]

I mean, you have the right to your opinion. But, look at the poll.

Ovi is a very one-dimensional player. He's fantastic at that one dimension, but if he's not scoring goals, he's pretty non-existant. Crosby is a centerman that influences the game more than Ovi.

And he scores more. I'm not sure how accouting for more scoring, winning 3x as many cups, etc would count against Crosby.

But, this is why I included Ovi in this poll. A lot of people feel the way you do. I admit, the guy who scores the most goals in history is a very valuable asset on a team!


Fair. He contributed. But he was cuckoo in 10-12, and was benched as soon as possible in 15, 16 and 17.

MAF gets very over-inflated by people who didn't watch him play every night.

You can’t say if he isn’t scoring goals he’s non existent. He plays physical and if he’s not scoring he’s still a threat every time he’s in the ice. That right there makes him existent.

 

[paracord]

You didn't even read the stats I provided. You responded way too quickly. Take a minute and look at them. Ovie is pretty clearly above everyone else in goal scoring - which is why he's on the verge of setting the all time record despite playing almost entirely in a lower scoring era (which is nuts and shouldn't be possible).

Lemieux led the NHL in goals a paltry 3 times. Ovie did it 9 times. It takes some real mental gymnastics to try and elevate 3 to be above 9.

In terms of adjusting for era, Ovechkin sustained a higher GPG for hundreds more games than Lemieux.

Even if we grant Lemieux the fantasy of extrapolating GPG, Ovechkin led the NHL in GPG 9 times to Lemieux's 6.

Ovechkin's peak season also adjusts higher than Lemieux's peak.

So no, there is no case for Mario Lemieux. Not even close.

This isn't just about stats. Lemieux was going against some guys named Gretzky, Hull, etc.

Also a guy named cancer. He missed lots of games in his prime. But WHEN HE PLAYED, he simply scored more than Ovi, and could score in many more ways than Ovi.

If your question was "who is the most consistent goal scorer of all time over many years," then yes, it's Ovi. If it was who is the "Best" goal scorer of all time, then it's Mario.

Kind of like Jim Brown being better than Emmitt Smith, even though Emmitt has a lot more yards.

You can’t say if he isn’t scoring goals he’s non existent. He plays physical and if he’s not scoring he’s still a threat every time he’s in the ice. That right there makes him existent.

i remember him being relegated to the 3rd line in the 17 playoffs against Crosby and the pens. I'm just saying he was less visible when he wasn't putting it in the net.

 

[Midnight Judges]

But WHEN HE PLAYED, he simply scored more than Ovi...

No. He didn't.

Again, Ovechkin sustained a higher adjusted GPG for hundreds more games than Lemieux.

Kind of like Jim Brown being better than Emmitt Smith, even though Emmitt has a lot more yards.

Jim Brown led the NFL in rushing 8 times.

Emmitt Smith led the NFL in rushing 4 times.

Ovechkin led the NHL in goals 9 times.

Lemieux led the NHL in goals 3 times.

Your analogy is not good.

 

[paracord]

No. He didn't.

Again, Ovechkin sustained a higher adjusted GPG for hundreds more games than Lemieux.

oh this is "adjusted" stats....in other words, made up stats.

I was just going by career per game averages. Lemieux scored 690 in 915. That's a faster pace than Ovi. Then he scored another 76 in 107 playoff games. Ovi scored 72 in 151 playoff games.

This is no slight on Ovi. You're just trying to compare him against very tough competition!

No. He didn't.

Again, Ovechkin sustained a higher adjusted GPG for hundreds more games than Lemieux.



Jim Brown led the NFL in rushing 8 times.

Emmitt Smith led the NFL in rushing 4 times.

Ovechkin led the NHL in goals 9 times.

Lemieux led the NHL in goals 3 times.

Your analogy is not good.

I think this is more good material for another poll.