Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XLII

[Avery16]

It’s going to be funny if/when Florida signs literally everyone and all this debate was for nothing.

Funny isn’t the word I would have chosen, but it would be very HF.

 

[effen]

One underlooked aspect IMO is the longer the rebuild goes for, the more job certainty Gorton has day-by-day. Not that I think he's in any danger, but if they're determined that he captains the rebuilding ship, and he says when its over, I question why he'd rush it after year 2 instead of waiting until year 4.

Seems like you're just opening yourself up to some very unnecessary risk for YOLO reasons.

 

[aufheben]

Ok, let’s break some fresh ground here. We all know that JD will be installed as President of the Rangers in the coming days and much has been made of the possibility of him helping recruit Panarin. Set that aside for a second. What happens if JD comes in and advises Gorton that he should go after Duchesne (either as a fallback or alternate)? He had a chance to watch Duchesne up close the last two and a half months of the season.

I’ve not been a fan of Duchesne and not advocated his signing no matter what happens with Panarin. I will, of course, not be the President of the Rangers.

Thoughts?

(and Uncle Larry, I want a hat tip if you use this)

Would Brock Nelson be worth considering at 4-5 years? Trotz actually was using him as the Isles’ #1C, not Barzal (similar to Backstrom-Kuznetsov). Could play #2C until one of the kids steps up.

One underlooked aspect IMO is the longer the rebuild goes for, the more job certainty Gorton has day-by-day. Not that I think he's in any danger, but if they're determined that he captains the rebuilding ship, and he says when its over, I question why he'd rush it after year 2 instead of waiting until year 4.

Seems like you're just opening yourself up to some very unnecessary risk for YOLO reasons.

Idk, I would say it’s the opposite. Job security aside, lingering in a rebuild is not a good thing in my opinion. After every losing season, the pressure to get back to winning goes up a notch. You hang around for too long, that’s when the ‘losing culture’ talk surfaces and teams start doing dumb shit like trading Hall and O’Reilly. There’s no pressure on the Rangers to be a playoff team this season (not yet anyway,) but it will definitely start next summer. I think there’s an argument to be made that the best time to start making big moves is right now, under no pressure to do so, and on Gorton’s own terms.

There’s no minimum amount of time required to complete a rebuild. If it takes us 2 years and it takes another team 8 years, good, f*** ‘em. Everyone’s been traded, the coach has been found, the franchise player has been found, the prospect pool is LOADED, and there’s a ton of money coming off the books during the next 2 years. I mean...that is the rebuild. What else is left?

 

[Avery16]

Ok, let’s break some fresh ground here. We all know that JD will be installed as President of the Rangers in the coming days and much has been made of the possibility of him helping recruit Panarin. Set that aside for a second. What happens if JD comes in and advises Gorton that he should go after Duchesne (either as a fallback or alternate)? He had a chance to watch Duchesne up close the last two and a half months of the season.

I’ve not been a fan of Duchesne and not advocated his signing no matter what happens with Panarin. I will, of course, not be the President of the Rangers.

Thoughts?

(and Uncle Larry, I want a hat tip if you use this)

I like that you’re using the spelling for Steve instead of Matt. Steve was a great under-rated D.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Would Brock Nelson be worth considering at 4-5 years? Trotz actually was using him as the Isles’ #1C, not Barzal (similar to Backstrom-Kuznetsov). Could play #2C until one of the kids steps up.

Idk, I would say it’s the opposite. Job security aside, lingering in a rebuild is not a good thing in my opinion. After every losing season, the pressure to get back to winning goes up a notch. You hang around for too long, that’s when the ‘losing culture’ talk surfaces and teams start doing dumb **** like trading Hall and O’Reilly. There’s no pressure on the Rangers to be a playoff team this season (not yet anyway,) but it will definitely start next summer. I think there’s an argument to be made that the best time to start making big moves is right now, under no pressure to do so, and on Gorton’s own terms.

There’s no minimum amount of time required to complete a rebuild. If it takes us 2 years and it takes another team 8 years, good, **** ‘em. Everyone’s been traded, the coach has been found, the franchise player has been found, the prospect pool is LOADED, and there’s a ton of money coming off the books during the next 2 years. I mean...that is the rebuild. What else is left?

Pass on Brock Nelson, if that's the move just re-sign Hayes. He's better and we know what he's all about.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

I would rather stick needles in my eyes than sign Brock Nelson to a multi year contract.

 

[Cag29]

One underlooked aspect IMO is the longer the rebuild goes for, the more job certainty Gorton has day-by-day. Not that I think he's in any danger, but if they're determined that he captains the rebuilding ship, and he says when its over, I question why he'd rush it after year 2 instead of waiting until year 4.

Seems like you're just opening yourself up to some very unnecessary risk for YOLO reasons.

I’d like it to go thru the 2020 draft so we get a shot at one more top 5 pick. We can see how exciting and beneficial it is picking so high this year. One more would be awesome.

 

[Ola]

I was thinking about taking on Tyler Johnson as a cap dump, but he has a bit too many years left.

 

[Calad]

I’d like it to go thru the 2020 draft so we get a shot at one more top 5 pick. We can see how exciting and beneficial it is picking so high this year. One more would be awesome.

Barring any major roster shakeups, the rebuild will continue for another season or two

 

[DutchShamrock]

10. What is Vancouver planning on the blue line? Derrick Pouliot out, Luke Schenn expected to get an extension. It’s possible only one of Alex Edler, Ben Hutton and/or Chris Tanev is back next season. The Canucks are going to investigate countless possibilities.

From the most recent 31 Thoughts.

For the sake of conversation, because deep down I know I'm connecting more dots than reality would allow, I just wonder if Skjei for the #10 pick is possible (as a base).

On one hand you have our strong desire to get into the top 10, Vancouver's desire to take the next step, cap space, and a potential fit for a seasoned top 4 player.

However I don't know if Gorton is shopping Skjei or if he would entertain moving a guy like that without a plan in place. I don't think we gut the team beyond Kreider and I don't think another willful tank in the plans.

 

[aufheben]

Pass on Brock Nelson, if that's the move just re-sign Hayes. He's better and we know what he's all about.

Seems farfetched. Not really interested in bringing back any of the old gang.

I would rather stick needles in my eyes than sign Brock Nelson to a multi year contract.

Why? Is it the career-year?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

From the most recent 31 Thoughts.

For the sake of conversation, because deep down I know I'm connecting more dots than reality would allow, I just wonder if Skjei for the #10 pick is possible (as a base).

On one hand you have our strong desire to get into the top 10, Vancouver's desire to take the next step, cap space, and a potential fit for a seasoned top 4 player.

However I don't know if Gorton is shopping Skjei or if he would entertain moving a guy like that without a plan in place. I don't think we gut the team beyond Kreider and I don't think another willful tank in the plans.

Skjei for Horvat

 

[NYR Viper]

If the Rangers were looking for depth scoring I’d look at Marcus Johansson. Cap dump like Zack Smith would be intriguing if something went back.

 

[Ola]

Barring any major roster shakeups, the rebuild will continue for another season or two

A rebuild has at least two major stages. First a tear down, then a building a phase. Hopefully Gorton can accelerate the tear down a bit by getting rid of Shatty and Smith.

After that phase is done, the tear down, I definitely expect Gorton to take an approach and stay to that for the foreseeable future. It is just the right thing to do. It is also simple to describe it, make moves that are likely to add value to the franchise and do not make moves that deduct value from the franchise.

From a rebuild perspective, the only thing that should change -- if it even is a change -- is that you don't try to stink on purpose to get high picks.

*You don't make any MSL trades, that is an obvious example. Way to short term, why should we do it in 2 years or 5 years or 8 years? You will never get a 50+% shot at the Cup any given year anyway.

*Why go after rentals, ever? They suck and aren't difference makers. Hockey is a team sport and it takes time for an acquisition to get going. Sometimes maybe you can get someone to try out, but like, nah, just schedule a holiday for the Bahamas over the deadline if we become a contender. Seriously.

*The UFA market will very seldom provide an opportunity for making a value positive deal, but sure, its not like there aren't examples of great UFA signings. Chara is the most obvious one. Pittsburgh has brought on many half-suspects that have turned it around and been valuable for them.

*Make sure that you get a steady stream of kids into the system through a good farm system that also has picks to make on draft day. That way you can keep the players you have on the roster that you want to keep. Do not look for short term gains by taking big risks with contracts that has a considerable downside.

*There is no self-fulfilling purpose with constantly having the deepest team and farm out there. The UDFAs, the KHL, college kids not signing etc, they will come to you if you can give them a spot and they can be pretty big difference makers. If Gorton does well, we will become very attractive. But its important that we also have some mobility on the roster. If we like look at LD -- we haven't had a spot for which two vets haven't competed since like the 90s, more or less.

*Gorton must start to make the right calls regarding our homegrown kids when resigning them. Some will say, well how do we know that a kid will sign a long-term deal with us? That question isn't hard to answer, we hold all the leverage up until a point they hold all the leverage. Just look around the league, its as likely that some GMs will offer a player a 16m per year deal as it is that they will offer the same young kid a bridge deal. Is like TDA someone that should get a long-term deal? I don't know, I don't get paid a ton to run the NYR, I can't speak with the coaches and players to get a complete picture. But Gorton cannot again end up in a situation were he strong arms a kid into taking a bridge deal only to sit there in 2 years when its extremely obvious that the kid should have been locked up long-term instead. Right?

*Gorton should also keep flexibility under the cap. He has been way to keen in the past to give long-term deals to iffy vets. Hopefully he has learned a lesson. Opportunities will present themselves. Look at the Karlsson trade, SJ is a contender right now because they more or less got Karlsson for free. Teams have no flexibility and GMs are extremely flat. If you have ammo and assets you can make good moves.

 

[Ola]

Its a bit annoying, because I think we could do a lot better in terms of getting a vet forward or two to help the kids we have -- but whenever a move requires that you first get rid of someone before you go out and get someone else, it basically never materialize. If I was betting on this, I wonder if I wouldn't put my money on Vesey and Names staying put...

I am a bit back and forth on Vesey. Who knows, maybe he wants out? He has limited upside given his contract situation. Like lets say he does surprise us and play well for an entire season and it seems like he took a step, whoho, he is an UFA next summer and we will have to outbid everyone just to keep him. But OTOH, I think he is a good part of the core group. I don't think the coaches mind him. Names annoys me more. 4m per for someone playing with his head under his arm most of the time. Also seem to be pretty immature. Gorton was of course referring to him as one of the guys he was going to have a word with after last season when he was annoyed with the lack of effort at the end.

But would anyone be interested in him if Gorton tried to trade him? Maybe if we took someone else like him back...

 

[FIRE DRURY]

Zibanejad, Namestnikov, Fast, Staal, Smith, Shattenkirk, Lundqvist.

Gorton, 2006:


ESPN, 2006:


Boston Globe, 2006:


Chara, 2006:


Chara was also 29 at the time. He was named captain before the season began.
~

Kreider is the only player left to trade. They can trade him at the draft in a month, or re-sign him; either way. The Rangers are going into the 2019-20 season with the best prospect pool in the NHL. They still have 9 picks in the 2020 draft, probably 2x 1st rounders, even without trading Kreider (or whatever minor assets may return at the TDL).

Avg forward age 24.3, with a fresh new batch of kids coming over this summer. Panarin would shoulder a huge load for our wingers in terms of role, responsibility, attention, and expectations. Who better a mentor for Chytil, Kakko, Kravtsov, and even Andersson, than Artemi Panarin? I trust completely in whatever Gorton does here.

Bonus – PP units:
PP1
Chytil
Zibanejad-Strome-Kakko
Fox

PP2
Andersson
Panarin-Howden-Kravtsov
DeAngelo

The credits are ready to roll on this rebuild.

Boston had over a dozen players 27 years or older when they signed Chara and Savard. I get what you’re saying, but this specific team is not structured the same way.

20 year old Bergeron and 23 year old Boyes coming off 70 point seasons.

There wasn’t a complete tear down there like there was here. That group was further along than us. Especially defensively.

Let’s not forget the term Savard + Chara signed for. 4+5 years. Not sure if they had NMC’s. Panarin definitely will.

Even if our group was a year or two ahead of where were at, I still wouldn’t want Panarin at the contract he’ll command. I don’t think he’ll be worth it. Not short term and especially not long term.

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

From the most recent 31 Thoughts.

For the sake of conversation, because deep down I know I'm connecting more dots than reality would allow, I just wonder if Skjei for the #10 pick is possible (as a base).

On one hand you have our strong desire to get into the top 10, Vancouver's desire to take the next step, cap space, and a potential fit for a seasoned top 4 player.

However I don't know if Gorton is shopping Skjei or if he would entertain moving a guy like that without a plan in place. I don't think we gut the team beyond Kreider and I don't think another willful tank in the plans.

They can have Staal and Smith

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

What would it take for a team to take Marc Staal off our hands? Maybe flip them a second rounder and Sean Day?


Or better yet, since we basically have to trade him because Henrik's not going anywhere, how about a package deal of Georgiev and Staal? What could we get for that package?

 

[FIRE DRURY]

What would it take for a team to take Marc Staal off our hands? Maybe flip them a second rounder and Sean Day?


Or better yet, since we basically have to trade him because Henrik's not going anywhere, how about a package deal of Georgiev and Staal? What could we get for that package?

If rather see Staal finish his contract than package him with Georgiev for a mediocre return.

I don’t think we can afford to move Georgiev yet.

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

If rather see Staal finish his contract than package him with Georgiev for a mediocre return.

I don’t think we can afford to move Georgiev yet.

I think we kind of have to, no? I mean Henrik won't waive his NMC and Shesterkin's deal is only for two years. Granted we have no idea how he'll play in the NHL, but it'd be a waste to burn off those two years and remain in limbo.

 

[Avery16]

What would it take for a team to take Marc Staal off our hands? Maybe flip them a second rounder and Sean Day?


Or better yet, since we basically have to trade him because Henrik's not going anywhere, how about a package deal of Georgiev and Staal? What could we get for that package?

laughed out of the league for moving futures to get out of a contract during a rebuild. We should be looking into doing the EXACT OPPOSITE. Take on more Staals for futures.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

I think we kind of have to, no? I mean Henrik won't waive his NMC and Shesterkin's deal is only for two years. Granted we have no idea how he'll play in the NHL, but it'd be a waste to burn off those two years and remain in limbo.

We definitely don’t have to.

Shesty said he’ll play in the AHL if need be. Henrik saw how Georgiev played last year. He knows Shesty just came here. He knows we’re rebuilding. His best friend was traded just a few month ago.

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

We definitely don’t have to.

Shesty said he’ll play in the AHL if need be. Henrik saw how Georgiev played last year. He knows Shesty just came here. He knows we’re rebuilding. His best friend was traded just a few month ago.

I thought Shesty has an out if he gets sent to the AHL

 

[FIRE DRURY]

laughed out of the league for moving futures to get out of a contract during a rebuild. We should be looking into doing the EXACT OPPOSITE. Take on more Staals for futures.

I wouldn’t mind this one bit, just as long as the contract is expiring this or next season.

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

laughed out of the league for moving futures to get out of a contract during a rebuild. We should be looking into doing the EXACT OPPOSITE. Take on more Staals for futures.

We have a top-3 prospect system. How many more futures do you want?