Roster Building Thread - Part XI (Off-season edition)

[DanielBrassard]

The other thing is Lindgren is almost Trouba like in his inability to defend the blue line. He's a little better once the puck is in deep and he has to go back and retrieve and sorting things out there but for a guy who provides very little offensively he's almost got to be perfect defensively to be playing where he is in the lineup.

 

[MrAlmost]

We already have someone who has a tailor-made skillset to compliment Fox. Just put the Miller-Fox pairing together, play them 24 minutes a night and win games.

The key should be using Lindgren to get a good 2LD with Schneider.

 

[UnSandvich]

So what you are saying is that Lindgren brings balance to the pairing.

 

[LaffyTaffy13]

We already have someone who has a tailor-made skillset to compliment Fox. Just put the Miller-Fox pairing together, play them 24 minutes a night and win games.

The key should be using Lindgren to get a good 2LD with Schneider.

This.
Kandre-Fox should be top pair.

Lindgren’s gotta be moved unless hes willing to take $2-2.5mm.

 

[Machinehead]

These numbers are essentially meaningless without context considering in almost all normal game states they are together. If you're going to actually do this you should only look at the following:

1. Fox with Lindgren
2. Fox without Lindgren in games Lindgren did not play
3. Lindgren without Fox in games Fox did not play

You're going to run into sample size issues though.

The numbers may still be one-sided. I don't know. But just doing it like that you're going to make it look worse by account of Fox being on the ice extra late in games when losing and Lindgren on the ice extra when winning and the like. Lindgren will also have a reasonable amount of time away from Fox on shifts that become 5v5 due to a penalty expiring when they are already stuck in their own zone.

Trouba/Lindgren played 154 mins together this year on the PK. They played 47 mins together at 5v5. They have a 29.6 CF%. But how many of those 47 minutes are right after a PK which is why they were on the ice together in the first place? That is a situation where you cannot gain 0 CF (They'll change when the puck goes out) but you can only get CA.

Contrarianism for the sake of it.

 

[Synergy27]

I don’t know why this is even a conversation.

Trouba has been passed by Schneider on the depth chart. No team can afford to pay a third pairing, PK specialist $8M/year.

Completely disregard any other aspect of this analysis, but if you agree that Schneider is now better than Trouba, there is not a single situation in which NOT moving Trouba makes any sense at all.

Lindgren can be demoted to the third pairing and still fit the cap structure (kinda). Trouba can’t, and there are plenty of teams for whom he is still a serviceable second pairing player.

This isn’t difficult.

Miller - Fox
FA/Trade - Schneider
Lindgren/Jones - FA/Trade

 

[Savant]

People need to ask themselves if they would still like Lindgren if he didn’t bleed/bruise every game. It visually biases his perception so much. The cap going up is a gift. It’s not an excuse to overpay guys that should not be returning. Trouba and Lindgren should both be heading towards the exit door. Both are a waste of limited cap resources

 

[Machinehead]

Lindgren doesn't provide toughness. He just gets hit with bodies and pucks constantly.

He doesn't make forwards think twice at the blueline (he doesn't do anything at the blueline), he isn't beating guys up in front of Igor, he doesn't take hits to make plays because he can't make plays.

He adds nothing.

 

[Synergy27]

I’m not a big proponent of intangibles, but Lindgren absolutely brings those in a way that I am willing to believe makes a tangible difference in the locker room. Watching that guy take the beatings he does and keep on ticking is inspirational as a fan and I guarantee you it’s the same as a teammate.

Should he be playing on the top pair? Definitely not. Should he be getting a long term, $4M+ contract? Definitely not.

Does he bring several qualities to the table that would be a net positive on a bottom pairing making a typical bottom pairing salary? Definitely yes in my opinion.

Lindgren doesn't provide toughness. He just gets hit with bodies and pucks constantly.

He doesn't make forwards think twice at the blueline (he doesn't do anything at the blueline), he isn't beating guys up in front of Igor, he doesn't take hits to make plays because he can't make plays.

He adds nothing.

 

[noncents]

Lindgren doesn't provide toughness. He just gets hit with bodies and pucks constantly.

He doesn't make forwards think twice at the blueline (he doesn't do anything at the blueline), he isn't beating guys up in front of Igor, he doesn't take hits to make plays because he can't make plays.

He adds nothing.

agreed.

lindgren may not be as bad as Trouba at playing 5v5 defense right now, or over the past 3 years, but i actually think Trouba provides more on the whole. he can knock a guy out of the series. He can clear the crease. maybe most importantly, coaches are willing to move him down.

Lindgren will only play with Fox, and that makes him a massive detriment to this team. He needs to go.

 

[Machinehead]

I’m not a big proponent of intangibles, but Lindgren absolutely brings those in a way that I am willing to believe makes a tangible difference in the locker room. Watching that guy take the beatings he does and keep on ticking is inspirational as a fan and I guarantee you it’s the same as a teammate.

Should he be playing on the top pair? Definitely not. Should he be getting a long term, $4M+ contract? Definitely not.

Does he bring several qualities to the table that would be a net positive on a bottom pairing making a typical bottom pairing salary? Definitely yes in my opinion.

Lindgren's qualifying offer is $3.6m. The idea that we can just keep him around for super cheap is a fantasy.

 

[Machinehead]

agreed.

lindgren may not be as bad as Trouba at playing 5v5 defense right now, or over the past 3 years, but i actually think Trouba provides more on the whole. he can knock a guy out of the series. He can clear the crease. maybe most importantly, coaches are willing to move him down.

Lindgren will only play with Fox, and that makes him a massive detriment to this team. He needs to go.

Trouba is also just better.

He puts up slightly better numbers not playing with the best defenseman in the world.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Does Mika have a NTC or NMC?

He has a full NMC.

 

[Machinehead]

There's not going to be any interest in moving Zibanejad. The team is just going to see it as a "down year."

We might as well just work on the defense.

 

[Fitzy]

This.
Kandre-Fox should be top pair.

Lindgren’s gotta be moved unless hes willing to take $2-2.5mm.

Miller and Fox can work, it will just take a minute for them each to get adjusted, and Miller will have to be a little more willing to
clear the crease.

The only way to lowball Lindgren is to offer him just the QO and say take it or sit out. I’d rather trade him for a return than ride him and lose him a year later as a UFA.

He was measurably worse last year. I’ve compared him to Kevin Klein a lot favorably? Last season reminded me of Kleins last season here before retiring to Europe. I think it’s time

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I’m not a big proponent of intangibles, but Lindgren absolutely brings those in a way that I am willing to believe makes a tangible difference in the locker room. Watching that guy take the beatings he does and keep on ticking is inspirational as a fan and I guarantee you it’s the same as a teammate.

Should he be playing on the top pair? Definitely not. Should he be getting a long term, $4M+ contract? Definitely not.

Does he bring several qualities to the table that would be a net positive on a bottom pairing making a typical bottom pairing salary? Definitely yes in my opinion.

The good news is that you can add this guy for way less than Lindgren is going to make for your bottom pair if this is the direction you want to go in.

These guys are always available and can be had for league minimum on July 1st.

I'd rather a guy who doesn't need to take a beating though. Being the hammer can be inspirational too.

 

[NYR Viper]

There's not going to be any interest in moving Zibanejad. The team is just going to see it as a "down year."

We might as well just work on the defense.

And in fairness, improving the defense likely provides an improvement to the offense because they can, you know, move the puck

The good news is that you can add this guy for way less than Lindgren is going to make for your bottom pair if this is the direction you want to go in.

These guys are always available and can be had for league minimum on July 1st.

I'd rather a guy who doesn't need to take a beating though. Being the hammer can be inspirational too.

THIS!!!!

I can see Drury and his team looking at their left side of Miller and Jones and thinking it would be nice to have someone on that side who is bigger and can bang bodies. They will also need to be able to PK pretty well. But paying that guy $4.5m to do that is asinine in a cap league. Especially when the tradeoff is not just paying that guy $4.5m, it's paying him $4.5m and losing, say, a 2nd + 3rd + 4th for which you could recoup for his services.

In no world is:
Lindgren @ $4.5m for 3 years > Dillon for 2 years @ $2.5m + 2nd + 3rd + 4th

Sub whoever for Dillon (maybe Cole, maybe OEL)

 

[jerseyjinx94]

And in fairness, improving the defense likely provides an improvement to the offense because they can, you know, move the puck



THIS!!!!

I can see Drury and his team looking at their left side of Miller and Jones and thinking it would be nice to have someone on that side who is bigger and can bang bodies. They will also need to be able to PK pretty well. But paying that guy $4.5m to do that is asinine in a cap league. Especially when the tradeoff is not just paying that guy $4.5m, it's paying him $4.5m and losing, say, a 2nd + 3rd + 4th for which you could recoup for his services.

In no world is:
Lindgren @ $4.5m for 3 years > Dillon for 2 years @ $2.5m + 2nd + 3rd + 4th

Sub whoever for Dillon (maybe Cole, maybe OEL)

Dillon is probably going to get overpaid.

 

[bleedblue94]

Man this is a bad post with bad player analysis

Just bad all around.

please, expand...

I would also appreciate someone showing me top d pairings that are successful (especially in the playoffs) with a small elite offensive defenseman that is paired with another pmd that does not focus on the d side or do the dirty work?

If you start having to shelter your #1d and his pairing from matchups in the d zone then you shift that to not being a top pairing situation. This is why I kept suggesting a hanafin pursuit bc he WOULD have satisfied the proper partner for fox.

Additionally if you org decides to commit to miller and fox together if they trade lindgren then you are essentially going into next year with a new second pairing bc Schneider will now be the #2 RD and we do not have an internal option in this org to be the #2 LD if lindgren is gone. Are you actually going to pursue Brady Skjei as a ufa?

 

[B17 Apricots]

Previously had made a little list of LHD I think could be realistic targets to upgrade over Lindgren

Matheson (MTL)
Skjei (UFA)
Provorov (CBJ)

Theodore would be a great add, I just don't see Vegas trading him. The cap is projected to go up again next summer, they look to have plenty of money available by then anyway. Unless he tells them he's walking they're probably not going to trade him.

Chychrun is a giant wild card because of his durability, high risk/high reward.

Marcus Pettersson might be in the same category as Theodore but you never know... Pittsburgh traded Guentzel and said they'd like to get younger. Pettersson only has 1 year left... he's another dark horse candidate. Became a big minute muncher over there playing with Letang and Karlsson. Essentially he plays Lindgren's role but better. If Pittsburgh starts selling that's a guy you want.

Fowler and Krug are a bit on the older side but they could be a fit.

 

[NYR Viper]

Previously had made a little list of LHD I think could be realistic targets to upgrade over Lindgren

Matheson (MTL)
Skjei (UFA)
Provorov (CBJ)

Theodore would be a great add, I just don't see Vegas trading him. The cap is projected to go up again next summer, they look to have plenty of money available by then anyway. Unless he tells them he's walking they're probably not going to trade him.

Chychrun is a giant wild card because of his durability, high risk/high reward.

Marcus Pettersson might be in the same category as Theodore but you never know... Pittsburgh traded Guentzel and said they'd like to get younger. Pettersson only has 1 year left... he's another dark horse candidate. Became a big minute muncher over there playing with Letang and Karlsson. Essentially he plays Lindgren's role but better. If Pittsburgh starts selling that's a guy you want.

Fowler and Krug are a bit on the older side but they could be a fit.

Low key, if they want to go with someone as a stop-gap for 2 years, OEL, Kylington, Dillon, Cole. Buy yourself a year or two to see what surfaces.

The key will be to find a very good 2nd pairing RD.

 

[Savant]

The key will be to find a very good 2nd pairing RD.

I mean you kind of have to hope that’s Schneider, or they may as well trade him

 

[Guyute]

Lindgren's qualifying offer is $3.6m. The idea that we can just keep him around for super cheap is a fantasy.

Yeeesh you're talking Barclay Goodrow money!

 

[bleedblue94]

Dude this is how they've been attacked as a pair since the beginning of time lol. This isn't brand new tactical stuff or something that was deployed in the playoffs only after Fox got hurt. It was more magnified this year because Lindgren himself regressed heavily.

Even if it was related to Fox's knee, Lindgren wasn't capable of picking up the slack and thats kind of the point. Someone playing that high in the lineup should be able to do it a hell of a lot better than he can. Plus lets not act like we didn't watch Lindgren beef easy exits all season.

And no the situational stuff doesn't really hold. Lindgren played a half an hour away from Fox in these playoffs 5v5 and got murdered unlike I've seen anyone get murdered at this level. Not all of those came protecting a lead late with Trouba (those were usually 5v6 and don't get factored in.) Yeah, occasional extended shifts at the end of a PK with Trouba sure, but not half an hour+ worth. Sorry.

I dont think lindgren regressed this year. he didnt get better but i dont think he regressed. I think in the playoffs what you saw was lindgren being asked to do more with fox limited and as expected there wasn't/isn't more to lindgren's offensive or puck game that he has to offer. He is what he is.

I maintain that I dont have an issue considering an upgrade to lindgren, but what I do stress is pause to the grass is greener nonsense. I keep asking who the player is that people have picked to take lindgren's spot if you move him out and so far I have Theodore and Brady f***ing Skjei mixed with something something "they will figure it out" something. 1st pairing d men are not readily available and I would argue harder to find then top line forwards. Playing 20+ mins a night for a d man really is something that not a lot of them can do for an extended period. There is a long list of players league wide that people slotted for top pair roles or futures that just couldn't maintain the level with increased minutes. That's why someone like Chris Tanev was so desired at the deadline, he was one of the super rare players that could manage that load and was actually available (pending ufa, what a shocker). There just are not top pair players that are available. Find some and make suggestions and I am all for it, I am not a blind lindy fan boy here, I just know that filling his current role is not as easy as people on this board want to believe...

If lindgren played 90 mins worth of hockey in the playoffs away from fox like you say then it should be easy to reference the games that they did that for extended periods. 90 mins is the equivalent of 4.5 games for these guys based on 20mins a night. hyperbole isnt really a help in this debate...

Lindgren's qualifying offer is $3.6m. The idea that we can just keep him around for super cheap is a fantasy.

you're talking 4% of the cap. people need to stop pretending that this is the 2007 cap, everyone is getting paid more. If you can sign a d man to play in your top 4 at under 4m that is a bargain, hell even established bottom pair guys are making big money.

 

[bleedblue94]

Also Trouba and Lindgren usually started together on the PK.

Yup, I brought that up in another post and people are referencing lindgren's time on ice away from fox as abysmal play, apparently the concept of situational deployment is nonexistent to them and they think he should have good numbers on a pk. They also ignore the fact that fox has been removed from the pk, yes in part to limit his minutes but also in LARGE part because he was repeatedly outmuscled in from of the net in battles that would cost goals against. This isn't the reason the pk got better, but it absolutely contributes when your d men cant be pushed out of the way in those net front battles on the pk.