Roster Building Thread - Part XI (Off-season edition)

[Levitate]

Cant wait till we trade Lindgren, a decent middle pair defenseman who really shouldnt be on the top pair, only to then overpay a player 2M+ more than his contract and will be same player. All to get a 2nd or 3rd round pick. Then we will trade that pick for toughness at the deadline that we lost from losing him.

Rango logic.

Lindgren doesn’t have any toughness in the way people want. He’s too small for anyone to care what he does to them. His toughness is all about eating a ton of bad hits and playing inured

 

[Chytilmania]

I haven’t kept tabs on him in MTL but in my head Guhle and Schneider would be fun. In his draft year I thought he was a Left handed version of Schneider.

 

[bleedblue94]

Ryan Lindgren away from Fox 5v5 in the playoffs was the equivalent of being on a PK.

It is very, very, very hard not to do better.

because outside of ox we have a bunch of d men that wear oven mitts when they play hockey and cant handle the pill. just because that is true doesn't mean it make sense to trash lindgren. there are other, more finacially responsible and sensible places to open slots in the pairings with trouba (do they have the stones to buy him out, probably not) and gusto not returning.

I would dare say miller was the most disappointing d man as the playoffs continued because others basically gave you what you would expect from them and miller has the raw tools to excel, but he seemed to mentally wear down towards the end of the carolina series and it just got worse for him through the florida series.

Have you looked up the fox trouba pairing xgoals%, corsi, and fenwick?? They were fantastic for the 11.8 mins that they were on the ice together!!! Must be something there!

BTW Fox played a total of 46.7 minutes without lindgren this playoffs. His fancy numbers were the best when he was playing with gustafsson.

If anyone thinks fox/gustafsson or fox/trouba should be pair together in the future then they should stop watching the sport...

This is entirely where stat pages fail.

It’s a 38min sample split randomly across the playoffs compared to their 200+min together. He wasn’t good, but let’s please not use extremely cherrypicked numbers and small samples to make these claims

and most of it was during the pk when he was paired with toruba...

This.
Kandre-Fox should be top pair.

Lindgren’s gotta be moved unless hes willing to take $2-2.5mm.

2 million? are you kidding? my goodness this is getting ridiculous

 

[bleedblue94]

Lindgren doesn't provide toughness. He just gets hit with bodies and pucks constantly.

He doesn't make forwards think twice at the blueline (he doesn't do anything at the blueline), he isn't beating guys up in front of Igor, he doesn't take hits to make plays because he can't make plays.

He adds nothing.

everything that you are criticizing lindgren is not, is actually what trouba is, consider that for a moment...

There's not going to be any interest in moving Zibanejad. The team is just going to see it as a "down year."

We might as well just work on the defense.

Drury pretty much already said this when he said he is looking at options inside and outside the org for a rw "to play with mika and chris."

mika isn't going anywhere

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Lindgren doesn’t have any toughness in the way people want. He’s too small for anyone to care what he does to them. His toughness is all about eating a ton of bad hits and playing inured

It’s ok, he still throws his body around and doesnt shy away, that’s toughness in my book. I dont need Rempe toughness.

 

[IronBloodedLion]

I love Lindgren and his blue collar approach to the game, but when I think of a spot that could use an upgrade Top LHD is one of the first spots that comes to mind.

 

[NYR Viper]

I mean you kind of have to hope that’s Schneider, or they may as well trade him

I think that's the hope, but I'd be signing someone who can fill that role now and playing Schneider on a 3rd pairing to start the season. Injuries happen

If you're asking my opinion, long term, I could see:

24-25
Miller-Fox
Dillon-Roy
Jones-Schneider

Dillon - 2 years @ $2.5m
Roy - 5 years @ $5.5m

25-26
Miller-Fox
Middleton-Roy
Dillon/Jones-Schneider

If Jones takes off, re-sign him. If he doesn't Dillon slides down to the 3rd pairing. Either way, sign Middleton.

 

[Machinehead]

Middleton sucks. Another guy who can't move the puck at all.

Dillon, I'm interested in.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Middleton sucks. Another guy who can't move the puck at all.

Dillon, I'm interested in.

How much are you willing to sign 33 year old Dillion, a 4/5 defensmen for? And he's a UFA so he will be getting 4 year offers at the very least.

 

[Hire Sather]

let's start w/what should be obvious
everyone -- you, me, Messier, etc etc -- all have a right to an opinion

the extent to which one prevails is based on merit
you have to bend, buckle and break and yield to the truth of that fact
or you will remain outside the bounds of reality

Now, what arguments here have merit.?
Messier's opinion, which here I concur, is based on visual evidence confirming value of Rem
You can ignore/dispute that evidence as a matter of free speech, but then recognize that what comes with the territory is you getting called out.

Lavi, who does not and is not entitled to any further gravitas simply b'c he is the coach. He was wrong to reject both the fact that Rs won WAAAYYY mo w/Rem than without him, AND that his physical play WAS part of what was needed to deal w/Panthers.

You apparently need more outside objective review on this, so here:

How should the Rangers utilize their top enforcer next season?

The New York Rangers had one of the most exciting rookies join their roster late this season in the form of enforcer Matt Rempe. He quickly became a cult favorite, as his big hits and frequent fights brought the Blueshirts some much-needed spotlight.

www.yardbarker.com

I may disagree with an odd statement or 2, but basically that article is spot on.

Move over Dorothy
surrender

You are one delusional dude.

Spouting a bunch of nonsense as usual.

 

[Savant]

I think that's the hope, but I'd be signing someone who can fill that role now and playing Schneider on a 3rd pairing to start the season. Injuries happen

If you're asking my opinion, long term, I could see:

24-25
Miller-Fox
Dillon-Roy
Jones-Schneider

Dillon - 2 years @ $2.5m
Roy - 5 years @ $5.5m

25-26
Miller-Fox
Middleton-Roy
Dillon/Jones-Schneider

If Jones takes off, re-sign him. If he doesn't Dillon slides down to the 3rd pairing. Either way, sign Middleton.

I guess, but if Rangers are going big game hunting in the trade market, Schneider is going to be a name people want, and frankly I’d rather not tank his value by dumping him on the third pairing (assuming there is an open spot in top four).

Like for (bad) example, to say this another way, if Ottawa says we will put Tkachuk on the table for Schneider, I’m not going to say no and then put Schneider on the third pair.

Also probably wouldn’t trade Schneider unless I was getting a Dman back (Theodore? Maybe Hronek?), but that’s another story, just kind of picked Tkachuk name out of a hat here

 

[NYR Viper]

How much are you willing to sign 33 year old Dillion, a 4/5 defensmen for? And he's a UFA so he will be getting 4 year offers at the very least.

AFP has him projected for 2 years @ $2.5m

 

[Savant]

How much are you willing to sign 33 year old Dillion, a 4/5 defensmen for? And he's a UFA so he will be getting 4 year offers at the very least.

I think if you can get Dillon on a decent term length, he makes a ton of sense. Would rather give some extra salary than extra years. And that’s obviously on Dillon to accept or not; I think Dillon and Roy are both really good targets. I’m not re-opening the Skjei door though

 

[Machinehead]

How much are you willing to sign 33 year old Dillion, a 4/5 defensmen for? And he's a UFA so he will be getting 4 year offers at the very least.

I don't really care if it doesn't have a clause in it. You can get out of contracts.

We're contending now and he fills a major need for this team.

 

[bernmeister]

You are one delusional dude.

Spouting a bunch of nonsense as usual.

The dismissive brush off is not effective b'c I contest it.
What I said, which is independently verified, applies.
bern was right, Lav wrong,
Rempe should have played from earlier in the season and DEF in POs

 

[haohmaru]

What’s Martinook going to get? That’s a playoff guy.

What I said, which is independently verified, applies.
bern was right, Lav wrong,
Rempe should have played from earlier in the season and DEF in POs

Can’t be proven, “right or wrong” because you don’t know what Rempe would’ve done, or not done, in those third periods. You haven’t “proven” ANYTHING.

 

[MrAlmost]

Trouba coming back for at least 1 more year is inevitable and likely a smart choice since we will have to eat something else to move him for little to no benefit. He will be moved next off-season at much less cost to the Rangers.

If Lindgren isn't moved for a LD, cause it does seem like there isn't a huge trade market for a good replacement, package him with Kakko and get a real RW for Kreider and Z.

Brenden Dillion is the value play to be had. 2.75ish for 2 or 3 years gets it done. Pair him with Schneider.

Let Edstrom, Berard and Othmann fill out the forwards. Get the young legs in there. And all 3 are no stranger to fighting it out in the tough areas.

It isn't about getting rid of Kreider, Z, Panarin etc.. It's about making a whole team of guys that go to the right areas consistenly so that the 2 or 3 that don't either have more room or don't hurt you as much.

Tro, Laf, Kreider, Berard, Othmann, Cuylle, Edstrom, Rempe, Goodrow(if kept), Dillion, Schneider, Trouba. That enough. That makes the less physical guys the minority, but not in a bad way where we don't have talent.

 

[bernmeister]

What’s Martinook going to get? That’s a playoff guy.



Can’t be proven, “right or wrong” because you don’t know what Rempe would’ve done, or not done, in those third periods. You haven’t “proven” ANYTHING.

No, that is pure bs on yr part, and I will call you out too if nec.

If you say "Panarin has been ineffective vs FL, let's call up Berard" THAT is an illustration that makes yr point.

Rempe played 20 something games and they lost 2 when he was in the lineup.
THAT is valid objective basis to say he should have been played.
AND
In addition to that track record, is the fact that while we were not creampuffs and mostly in good shape, overall Panthers had better stamina, even when exerting lots of energy to take a toll on us.
As I explained, IN ADVANCE IN REAL TIME not after the fact, playing Rempe mo mins and all the [other] lines a bit less meant they would each have more energy rest of the game.
THAT is irrefutable logic.

Every year, bern warns and every year Rs braintrust screws it up
And I will mouth off about it until they get it correct

that is my right as a fan, and I will not be denied

 

[haohmaru]

No, that is pure bs on yr part, and I will call you out too if nec.

If you say "Panarin has been ineffective vs FL, let's call up Berard" THAT is an illustration that makes yr point.

Rempe played 20 something games and they lost 2 when he was in the lineup.
THAT is valid objective basis to say he should have been played.
AND
In addition to that track record, is the fact that while we were not creampuffs and mostly in good shape, overall Panthers had better stamina, even when exerting lots of energy to take a toll on us.
As I explained, IN ADVANCE IN REAL TIME not after the fact, playing Rempe mo mins and all the [other] lines a bit less meant they would each have more energy rest of the game.
THAT is irrefutable logic.

Every year, bern warns and every year Rs braintrust screws it up
And I will mouth off about it until they get it correct

that is my right as a fan, and I will not be denied

They won those games with him playing 6 or less minutes every night. It does nothing to “prove” that more minutes would’ve resulted in more success no matter how much word salad you’re throwing at it.

Defending a lead, trying to get the tying goal, etc… are all completely unknown commodities when it comes to Rempe and that, too, is a fact and “irrefutable logic”.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Dillon is fine if you get him for under 3 million and for 2 or fewer years. I'm not really all that interested in locking up a bottom pair guy for any longer than that. I'd be fine with bumping the money up a bit if it meant you could lock him in for just 1.

@bleedblue94 instead of quoting a bunch of messages I'll just respond to a few points here.

Ryan Lindgren absolutely regressed this year and did so drastically. This was a guy who had 3 straight seasons where he was either #1 or #2 on the defense in HDCA/60... This year? 6th out of 6, and he was 6th by quite a bit. As as team, they gave up fewer than they had the previous 2 seasons so it's not like there was an uptick in overall volume here, but a large one with him on the ice. Rangers as a team gave up about 11 per 60 (Lindgren averaged 12.5, first time he's been above 11 in his career, let alone 12.)

This was the first year since they were paired together that they finished below the 50% mark in xGF% and it wasn't Fox who brought the pair down, it was the guy who bled quality chances against for the first time in his career (which is the reddest of flags) and has never contributed positively to chances for even when he was at his best.

His sub 10% number in the playoffs can't be pinned solely on his non Fox partners, he's the only guy on the defense who performed that poorly. If you're going to get on other D for having "oven mitts" for hands, then you need to acknowledge that he is more oven mitty than all of them. Just for reference, the Rangers PK for the regular season was at 16%, Lindgren was doing this away from Fox at 5v5 during the playoffs and no, not all of it was him defending a lead or getting caught out there with Trouba at the end of a PK (this happened, but it wasn't nearly 40 min worth of it.)


As I mentoned with someone else, thats just another point on top of better points. Main problem with him is that he drags down a top 2-3 player in the league. It wasn't really justifiable when he was nuking his offense while still at least holding things down in his own end and its even less justifiable now that his defensive game has gone in the toilet as well. Even if you feel like a defense first player is necessary to play with Fox, Ryan Lindgren doesn't fit that description anymore.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

AFP has him projected for 2 years @ $2.5m

Well that's just completely unrealistic to the contract he will sign.

I don't really care if it doesn't have a clause in it. You can get out of contracts.

We're contending now and he fills a major need for this team.

Ok, well I'm sure a team will give him a clause, so I guess we are out of the running for him. Might as well keep our own 4/5 defenseman who is 7 years younger that we don't need to give a clause to.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Well that's just completely unrealistic to the contract he will sign.


Ok, well I'm sure a team will give him a clause, so I guess we are out of the running for him. Might as well keep our own 4/5 defenseman who is 7 years younger that we don't need to give a clause to.

Why would you assume that a soon to be 34 year old player would get a clause?

I’d rather take the better player at lesser money even with the clause if the choice is one or the other though.

 

[Mac n Gs]

This is what happens when you have a heavily regressed Lindgren and Trouba in your top 4. Do you remember how much better the defense looked when they were both out and replaced by bascially replacement level players? Because I do.

Also Schneider took a step forward this year and Gus was clearly a better bottom pair option than anything we've run out there so this is just factually incorrect.

Lastly, why are those minutes insignificant?

You're better than this. Not all of those minutes can be situationally driven, its just not possible and the common 'OH LINDGREN IS OUT THERE PROTECTING A LEAD" (this isn't coming from you btw) shit is just BS, as if Fox isn't eating minutes in those situations as well lol. But even if they were, rocking a sub 10% xGF% is never good when you're 5v5. It's really not even that good 4v5. I don't think he's THAT bad (sub 10% that is) either, but it's clear that he isn't good and it's not about painting a narrative, we have loads of data that already support that independent of it, all we have to do is look at what he did with Fox, they're just extra logs that exist on that fire.



What makes you think this was just a one off and not the beginning of a sharp decline? Because everything points to it being the latter.

There were plenty of people who have been asking for a better partner for Fox even before this year because even at his best, he was a one dimensional defensive defenseman who killed offense. I think prior to this year, most of us would have been okay with that playing out and Lindgren moving down in the lineup.

He's going to make too much money to play lower and his regression is five alarm fire that should be extinguished, not extended.

I think blaming Lindgren and Trouba is over-simplifying it. The entire unit changed a lot of their basic approach to defending, and I think it's specifically related to coaching from Housley. One very obvious issue was the guys going into snow angels all year to try to block passing lanes. That's just nitpicking one thing, but it was frustrating to watch. There were some good things, but again, the majority of it resulted in a downturn for everyone sans Fox. I'd say Jones too in his stint when Trouba was hurt. I thought Schneider had good moments, but again, his decision-making with and without the puck down the stretch was brutal, and it got overlooked a lot. He still has a lot of potential, but he needs some very noticeable bad habits coached out of his game. Gus fell off a cliff at the end of the year after a great first half. Again, we're not even arguing about Lindgren because like I said I'd move him for an upgrade. We even agree that Theodore would be a great fit, even if it means having to shift around role deployment since you're losing a top PKer.

To the minutes thing, they're insignificant because I scanned through all of the game logs, and I know you're not seriously going to tell me that a few cumulative minutes between each game with random partners are anything other than just noise. It's randomly distributed across the entire playoffs to a total of 13:37 with Trouba, 11:13 with Schneider, 8:43 with Gustafsson, and 8:16 with Miller. There's no coherent pattern to it either. I could dive deeper to see how many of these followed a PK ending, but I'm not gonna waste the time right now. The comment on Fox's minutes being situational isn't some crazy idea either. Basically half of Fox's time apart at 5v5 came when the Rangers were trailing. That's not factoring for any games that Fox played where Lindgren didn't.

Like I said, this is all moot either way since we both agree that upgrading on Lindgren is probably the best move. The 38 minute thing irked me, and the actual data showed I was right.

Now get on with the fun stuff like suggesting Panarin back to Chicago for Nazar+

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Why would you assume that a soon to be 34 year old player would get a clause?

I’d rather take the better player at lesser money even with the clause if the choice is one or the other though.

Because teams hand those things out like candy now. Especially for a player that will get a lot of calls on July 1st.

 

[DolansKazoo]

No, that is pure bs on yr part, and I will call you out too if nec.

If you say "Panarin has been ineffective vs FL, let's call up Berard" THAT is an illustration that makes yr point.

Rempe played 20 something games and they lost 2 when he was in the lineup.
THAT is valid objective basis to say he should have been played.
AND
In addition to that track record, is the fact that while we were not creampuffs and mostly in good shape, overall Panthers had better stamina, even when exerting lots of energy to take a toll on us.
As I explained, IN ADVANCE IN REAL TIME not after the fact, playing Rempe mo mins and all the [other] lines a bit less meant they would each have more energy rest of the game.
THAT is irrefutable logic.

Every year, bern warns and every year Rs braintrust screws it up
And I will mouth off about it until they get it correct

that is my right as a fan, and I will not be denied

I agree with this. I thought Laviolette did a great job during the regular season with a new team. Not unleashing Rempe during the Florida series and putting some some fear into them was a big mistake. Would have also gave our own guys a little more jam which as we all saw was nearly non-existent.