Roster Building thread - Part X - (TDL edition)

[GoAwayPanarin]

What line were they matched against? Was it the other teams top line or their 3rd line? So, worse case scenario they scored one more they gave up? The horror! On top of that Zib and Kreider led the team in goals.

And I know you think you’re the smartest guy in the room but your act is getting old.

Right, because the PP is a thing. I watched the games and the PP and Igor (which is the only reason why they finished even slightly above even in goal differential. Same applies to the Panarin line too btw but less so) literally almost got us to the finals.

The members of the K-Z-V line collectively scored as much on the PP as they did at ES. Do you want me to show how many minutes they played at ES vs the PP?

Matchups are kind of irrelevant. what ever they were given they got eaten doing so. FWIW, they stopped drawing the tough matchups midway through the Carolina series and things didn't really change. Again, I know this because i watched the games.

LOL if anyone is trying to act like they're the smartest guy in the room its you. You've been presented with a shit ton of data on several players but choose not to believe it because "your eyes' tell you differently.

Heres the truth - You're being purposefully hard headed because you have biases that you don't want to let go of and your eyes suck. You've proven that time and time again with your attempts at actual in game analysis.

You're free to have your opinions, as terrible as they may be but don't cry when they're challenged.

 

[IDvsEGO]

I like arguing

I do too, but arguing has to make sense... At this point we're just playing revisionist.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Right, because the PP is a thing. I watched the games and the PP and Igor (which is the only reason why they finished even slightly above even in goal differential. Same applies to the Panarin line too btw but less so) literally almost got us to the finals.

The members of the K-Z-V line collectively scored as much on the PP as they did at ES. Do you want me to show how many minutes they played at ES vs the PP?

Matchups are kind of irrelevant. what ever they were given they got eaten doing so. FWIW, they stopped drawing the tough matchups midway through the Carolina series and things didn't really change. Again, I know this because i watched the games.

LOL if anyone is trying to act like they're the smartest guy in the room its you. You've been presented with a shit ton of data on several players but choose not to believe it because "your eyes' tell you differently.

Heres the truth - You're being purposefully hard headed because you have biases that you don't want to let go of and your eyes suck. You've proven that time and time again with your attempts at actual in game analysis.

You're free to have your opinions, as terrible as they may be but don't cry when they're challenged.

lol, what are you even talking about? Challenge away my guy, it’s a message board. I come here a few hours a day to read about the rangers not be lectured by some know it all.

I don’t care about your data, I don’t watch hockey for data points, I watch to be entertained. But if your biggest gotcha is that that line scored one more goal than they gave up at ES (while leading the team in goals), you got me, you really got me. Owned. I love how PP production has now become a slight to the players performing well on it. For years fans bitched about the PP and how inept it is. Now they have one of the best in the league for multiple years and it’s a knock. Maybe one day when you become a GM you’ll put a dynasty together. Fingers crossed.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Right, because the PP is a thing. I watched the games and the PP and Igor (which is the only reason why they finished even slightly above even in goal differential. Same applies to the Panarin line too btw but less so) literally almost got us to the finals.

The members of the K-Z-V line collectively scored as much on the PP as they did at ES. Do you want me to show how many minutes they played at ES vs the PP?

Matchups are kind of irrelevant. what ever they were given they got eaten doing so. FWIW, they stopped drawing the tough matchups midway through the Carolina series and things didn't really change. Again, I know this because i watched the games.

LOL if anyone is trying to act like they're the smartest guy in the room its you. You've been presented with a shit ton of data on several players but choose not to believe it because "your eyes' tell you differently.

Heres the truth - You're being purposefully hard headed because you have biases that you don't want to let go of and your eyes suck. You've proven that time and time again with your attempts at actual in game analysis.

You're free to have your opinions, as terrible as they may be but don't cry when they're challenged.

I cant like this enough.

Everyone was screaming give the kids more ice time. We saw that as soon as they got more minutes, their production was going up.

All 3 of them play games that seemed tailor made for the playoffs.

OH and look, Laf got more ice time this year, and look at that. We have a top line winger.
So we have data, and we have eye test.

Mika does not play a playoff game. Something is off with him this year and so my confidence in his game has dropped significantly. Kreider can play a playoff game, he just doesn't consistently.

The point isn't to re-add vatrano. The point is to find a "new" vatrano.
Someone who
1. isnt overpriced or having a career season right before UFA
2. Fills a positional need
3. Has been blocked from higher opportunities and has an opportunity to excel in the playoffs in a good fit.

Vatrano is not blocked any longer and is now over valued.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I do too, but arguing has to make sense... At this point we're just playing revisionist.

That's not arguing -- that's a debate.

 

[IDvsEGO]

lol, what are you even talking about? Challenge away my guy, it’s a message board. I come here a few hours a day to read about the rangers not be lectured by some know it all.

I don’t care about your data, I don’t watch hockey for data points, I watch to be entertained. But if your biggest gotcha is that that line scored one more goal than they gave up at ES (while leading the team in goals), you got me, you really got me. Owned. I love how PP production has now become a slight to the players performing well on it. For years fans bitched about the PP and how inept it is. Now they have one of the best in the league for multiple years and it’s a knock. Maybe one day when you become a GM you’ll put a dynasty together. Fingers crossed.

JFC
No one is saying you have to watch hockey for the data points.
Theyre still gonna exist.

NO ONE IS CALLING PP GOALS BAD. But theres a reason teams are awarded a pp in the first place. Because its easier to score. 5v5 is where the majority of hockey is played in every single game. You can count on a game having 5v5 ice time. You cannot count on Power plays occuring in a game.
We have a great powerplay, and im not upset about it.

 

[bernmeister]

Why is Othmann so off limits? I haven't noticed him at all over the last 15 Pack games at ES.
Not saying he should go for a rental but I feel like the kid gets a bit overrated on here.

To be clear he should be off limits UNLESS
exception to the rule, youth for youth + we get acceptable profit out of it

I agree with this. I’m not sold on him. For a core piece I would move him.

He was a Drury pick though. That might make him less likely to go.

I'm relatively sold, but I stand by above comment.
Core/foundation piece preferred, but don't cut nose to spite face.
If enuf profit on the table, go there.

we don't have enuf horses and need shrewd deals to add more here + there

Vatrano is on a heater. I think Drury gets him no matters what it takes, and we need to prepare to lose a piece we don't really want to lose.

no pls
I was all for Vatrano last time. Rs effed it up by not listening to bern and extending him for what he got from ANA.

We have to live with that, and unless there is a larger deal where he is a side piece at reasonable cost, the answer is no, give it up

I have a real problem giving up good prospects for Vatrano. He's seriously gonna be way overpriced given what's available

Concur
Open mind to listen but not expecting a fit even if price come down

The Rangers actually have quite a few guys who play with an edge at forward coming up through the pipeline. Sykora and Berard are PIA player types. Edstrom and Rempe obviously. Cuylle is a 3rd liner as a rookie and a guy like Chmelar play a big heavy game.

I like Othmann a lot and would prefer to keep him but if you’re getting a top-6 23 year old center like Zegras it makes some sense

Welcome to the club
have been pitching Oth + Ber ++ for Zeg + for better part of a yr now

Zegras is the type that would suck on the 3rd line. Not good defensively. i want centers to be defensively responsible, not ones that when arent scoring is kinda useless on the ice.

Yeah, eventually we hope everybody fully develops but meantime you work w/what you have warts + all.
Zeg IMO can learn to play better defensively.

He'd def be top 6 and before using betw Cuylle + KK on what looks like 3rd line, would see if there is chem as pivot betw Kreid + Zib

NYR: 1st, conditional 3rd (becomes 2nd with SCF appearance), Sykora, Jones, BMB
SEA: Gourde 50%, Eberle 50%

Or

NYR: 4th
OTT: Tarasenko

NYR: 3rd, Jones
SEA: Wennberg 50%

The former should allow them to add a defenseman of quality. The latter likely ties up the rest of their cap space. Maybe they could get a depth D with 50% retention. I love Vlad but I prefer the former. And yes Kane still would have been my pick over Eberle and Tarasenko. I don’t think we can get Guentzel. I doubt Crosby is moved although he would be my target #1 if he was open to a trade. Zucc is someone who has crossed my mind with 50% retention. I think Toffoli would be an interesting add. Buch ain’t happening.


Then there is a plethora of middle 6 wingers who would be in a 2nd tier. MoJo, Duclair, Okposo, Mantha. Brock Nelson — he produces. Kapanen. Tolvanen. Labanc. Texier. Tuch. Gurianov. Beauvilier

For me Vatrano is Fool’s Gold. He won’t get PP1 time here. Then what? You are going to pay for a stock that is at an all time high on the market. This is an outlier.

If Drury has the stones to move Goodrow it changes a lot. Gus could be moved as well to negotiate the cap space and capitalize on his strong 1st half that may be still at the forefront of GM minds.

NO
that is still younger assets for vets
no more win now rentals = epic fail
no

Duclair for 4/Lamb
Wenneberg for 3/Laba
Walker/6 for 2/Robertson

also
no
pls insert Ringo Starr singing NO NO Song
I'd type the lyrics but don't want to get tagged for spam

If there is room left after the first two moves to address the top line RW and the 3C, i would be for Okposo at 50% if he comes cheap. Add him to the 4th line. If he gets hurt then boom you got Eddy to jump back in. Or Brodzinski.

Kreider-Zib-Eberle
Panarin-Troch-Laf
Cuylle-Gourde-Kakko
Vesey-Goodrow-Okposo

Black Aces; Edstrom, Rempe, Brodzinski, Othmann, Berard/Sykora.

That is a heckuva lineup. Has the bite to compete for a cup too. Total money being brought in with 50% retention would be roughly just over $6. The Rangers can make that work sending out Jones salary and sending down Belzille + Rempe/Edstrom.

NO do not want doc Ok
no on sending down Rempe or Ed

why must we break what does not need fixing?????

Zegres + Vatrano at 75%

2024 1st, Othmann, Kakko, Goodrow

Panarin Trocheck Laf
Kreider Zib Vesey
Cuylle Zegres Vatrano
Edstrom Brodz Rempe

NO
keep Kakko, do not dump Good on them

Oth + Berrard + as a base for Zeg +

He's not a complete black hole offensively but pretty much limits himself to the most simple game possible, I don't doubt that there's a better overall option for your top line out there somewhere. Though a contender should pick up Silfverberg for next to nothing, just for the sheer level headed dependability he's shown he can bring in the chaos of playoff hockey.

Slifv = vet not a fit generally and 111% not a fit for youth

Tell me what you think is fair

Good retained down to 2.0/+
for Silf/+

that is basically coke for pepsi
Rs consider it b'c outside chance VERY OUTSIDE, Slif = chem w/Kreid + Zib, but so SO outside, I would not pay to find out

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

JFC
No one is saying you have to watch hockey for the data points.
Theyre still gonna exist.

NO ONE IS CALLING PP GOALS BAD. But theres a reason teams are awarded a pp in the first place. Because its easier to score. 5v5 is where the majority of hockey is played in every single game. You can count on a game having 5v5 ice time. You cannot count on Power plays occuring in a game.
We have a great powerplay, and im not upset about it.

what are you trying to argue? That line wasn’t even negative 5v5 that year. What’s the issue? Were kreider and zib the reason they lost that series? The other team had good players too. And I don’t even care if they trade for Vetrano or not. Stats guys are like LIV golf fans, constantly screaming out into the abyss, aggrieved and wronged by the entire world out to get them. Classic.

 

[Kendo]

IMO, our best asset that we can afford to dangle is the '24 2nd. If the cost is a 1st and/or a prospect (even Berard/Syky are worth more to us than a 2nd each), then we need to look elsewhere.

Vatrano two years ago for a 4th was great because it was only a 4th. We should NOT spend a 1st on him now. Foegele's name is batted around, and he's basically "Vatrano from two years ago."

There are guys worth a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th that we should be looking at. Jones can be added as a kicker, maaaybe Robertson, but NOT both. We can't leave that big of a hole in "the system."

Best case scenario would be an expiring 3C/W that is normally worth a 3rd or 4th from a team that would take Goodrow and a 2nd or 3rd instead.

We aren't "one player away," but the difference between us being an absolute wagon and where we are now is entirely based on Mika playing up to his usual level, Kakko adding some quantitative offense to his already solid play, and 1/3 of our D not playing like absolute plugs. So we can and should target complimentary players instead of a "huge get" that ends up playing like a complimentary player anyway. If our difference makers actually play like difference makers, we only need a slight tweak.

 

[Kendo]

an idea would be to find this years 2022 Frank Vatrano and get him for a 3rd rather than give up a shitload for 2024 Frank Vatrano

I was JUST sayin'....

Is that Foegele?

 

[GAGLine]

Zegres + Vatrano at 75%

2024 1st, Othmann, Kakko, Goodrow

Panarin Trocheck Laf
Kreider Zib Vesey
Cuylle Zegres Vatrano
Edstrom Brodz Rempe

So, you trade all of that for 2 guys who will play on the 3rd line and get little PP time?

Sounds like a winning formula.

 

[bernmeister]

IMO, our best asset that we can afford to dangle is the '24 2nd. If the cost is a 1st and/or a prospect (even Berard/Syky are worth more to us than a 2nd each), then we need to look elsewhere.

Vatrano two years ago for a 4th was great because it was only a 4th. We should NOT spend a 1st on him now. Foegele's name is batted around, and he's basically "Vatrano from two years ago."

There are guys worth a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th that we should be looking at. Jones can be added as a kicker, maaaybe Robertson, but NOT both. We can't leave that big of a hole in "the system."

Best case scenario would be an expiring 3C/W that is normally worth a 3rd or 4th from a team that would take Goodrow and a 2nd or 3rd instead.

We aren't "one player away," but the difference between us being an absolute wagon and where we are now is entirely based on Mika playing up to his usual level, Kakko adding some quantitative offense to his already solid play, and 1/3 of our D not playing like absolute plugs. So we can and should target complimentary players instead of a "huge get" that ends up playing like a complimentary player anyway. If our difference makers actually play like difference makers, we only need a slight tweak.

Best case scenario is we call up Oth + Ber and basically do not dress Good

They contribute, helps us now, ups their value if/when we do sell them

 

[WhatTheDuck]

Ducks fans on the main boards are delusional thinking they will get Kakko for Vatrano and Henrique. It’s like when we thought we would get Sergachev for McDonagh.

That thread was started by a Rangers fan...

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Kuznetsov on waivers

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

lol, what are you even talking about? Challenge away my guy, it’s a message board. I come here a few hours a day to read about the rangers not be lectured by some know it all.

I don’t care about your data, I don’t watch hockey for data points, I watch to be entertained. But if your biggest gotcha is that that line scored one more goal than they gave up at ES (while leading the team in goals), you got me, you really got me. Owned. I love how PP production has now become a slight to the players performing well on it. For years fans bitched about the PP and how inept it is. Now they have one of the best in the league for multiple years and it’s a knock. Maybe one day when you become a GM you’ll put a dynasty together. Fingers crossed.

No one said that PP goals were bad.

the combo of K-Z-V had nothing to do with the PP goals though since Vatrano didn't play on that unit. You're trying to attribute the "success" that they had in the playoffs to them playing with one another while ignoring that the large amount of their success came when up on the man advantage. Thats the only reason it was brought up.

The Panarin line sucked ass too. They just sucked less than the bromance+Vatrano. Panarin isn't playing with either player that he played with in those playoffs. I don't think that putting together a trio that wasn't good for us in the playoffs when Kreider and Zibanejad were playing better is the answer there either.


If you don't want to be lectured, stop speaking nonsense. You're free to back out of this conversation too, I'm not forcing you to answer and at this point I'd probably you rather do that because you don't have anything meaningful to say.

 

[Kendo]

Best case scenario is we call up Oth + Ber and basically do not dress Good

They contribute, helps us now, ups their value if/when we do sell them

We aren't a world-beater, but there aren't any this season. We're in a position to compete, so handing our hopes to Ott and Beebs could be a big mistake. Let them fight for the AHL playoffs and then next season, I'm into the idea of going younger than usual with adding both of them. But this season, just grab a bargain bin F or 2, maybe a 7D upgrade, and see what the group can do. They've been around the top of the league almost all season, yet with obvious flaws. Igor got his poop together, Mika March has started, and maybe Trouba turns a corner soon.

 

[IronBloodedLion]

Big weekend. I think teams that are on the bubble are going to decide whether they’re going to try to get into the playoffs or not.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

No one said that PP goals were bad.

the combo of K-Z-V had nothing to do with the PP goals though since Vatrano didn't play on that unit. You're trying to attribute the "success" that they had in the playoffs to them playing with one another while ignoring that the large amount of their success came when up on the man advantage. Thats the only reason it was brought up.

lol, what?? I never claimed their success was because the three of then played together. I said the two guys that led THE ENTIRE TEAM IN GOALS in the playoffs that year were the reason for their success. Goals were kind of important the last time I checked.

And next time, feel free not to respond to a post that had zero to do with you. Nice ego though.

 

[NYR Viper]

Anyone that is going to play with Zibanejad and Kreider needs to have speed. That line is a rush line. It would be great if they could find someone with speed and who’s solid at retrieving pucks. Keeps the game simple. This is where someone like Zucker may be a fit.

I don’t hate the idea of Olofsson or Kubalik here either.

 

[RGY]

Kuznetsov on waivers

Good thing he hates Lavy because that guy is shot.

 

[hardnosed]

I was JUST sayin'....

Is that Foegele?

Haven't done any research but I seem to recall that this guy kills us every time we play against him.

 

[smoneil]

I'm all about another option if the cost is too high but lets not downplay his 29 goals this year. This is annoying. He's been good and potted 2 ES goals tonight. The 11 goals on the PP means he has 18 ES goals. That's pretty damn good.

I'm not downplaying Vatrano as a player. The Ducks are going to set the price for him as that of a 30 goal scorer. On this team, he ain't that. I'd love to pick up Vatrano at his actual value to this team (particularly as he has a good playoff track record). But I do NOT want the team to pay top prices for an inflated asset, and as good as Vatrano is, his value is WAY inflated due to how they've deployed him in Anaheim. Sometimes the right player costs too much. Reilly Smith (or someone else along those lines) would give us AS much as Vatrano for a much lower cost IMO.

 

[bobbop]

Last time we acquired Vatrano (for a fourth round draft choice), no one really campaigned for him and he was in some ways an unknown commodity. We fell into a sewer and found a gold watch. It happens.

We will not be trading the 10-12 core guys at the heart of this team. Those are summer trades. And it is almost impossible to cobble together a three-way trade right other than salary retention deals. This is not NHL 24. Some of the proposals here are laughable. (Yes, I am pointing at you)

I'll go back to something I said a few weeks ago. Drury has enough cap money available for one big splash and one extra body. I'm sure he has a shopping list with players his staff feels will add to the roster and fit the economics. While there are no untouchables, that conversation can always shift. I'm old enough to remember when Duclair was an untouchable.

Check the standings Monday morning and you will have a better idea of who might be available. You may also get an idea how reasonable some of acquisition these costs will be.

 

[bhamill]

Easy to say as the keyboard warriors eating chips off their chest. Hard to say what I would do if I was a 20 year old in a foreign country behind Michael Haley in the pecking order and had the option to go make way more money elsewhere.

Just because you don’t know what you would do, does not change the facts. He quit on his team. For his own benefit. He had it coming, and if it was me, I’d just accept the consequences of my actions. As I was raised to do and have always done. At a well younger age than 20.
Also, I do not eat chips off of my chest, I prefer pretzels, and one does not need to be a “warrior,” keyboard or otherwise, to have a basic sense of honor or commitment. The fact that you needed to resort to insults says more about you than anyone saying Krav quit on his teammates.

Pettersson re-signed 8 years $11.6M AAV

THAT is a hometown discount.

 

[bernmeister]

We aren't a world-beater, but there aren't any this season. We're in a position to compete, so handing our hopes to Ott and Beebs could be a big mistake. Let them fight for the AHL playoffs and then next season, I'm into the idea of going younger than usual with adding both of them. But this season, just grab a bargain bin F or 2, maybe a 7D upgrade, and see what the group can do. They've been around the top of the league almost all season, yet with obvious flaws. Igor got his poop together, Mika March has started, and maybe Trouba turns a corner soon.

I acknowledge you saying 'bargain bin"
Howev
barg bin = unlikely to be signif improvement
most adds ditto unikely and also thus not worth to pay for
as to be expected, dif makers added, if available = way too expensive

so the only strategy, process of elimination is see if Oth/Ber catch lightning in a bottle and add something
even if it is short term

we can always disconnect/slow down if they are overwhelmed/need mo seasoning