Proposal: Roster Building Thread Part IV: High Hopes
- Thread starter Gardner McKay
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Revisit? The Rangers kept their core group together and they lost in the Cup final. Lost in the conference finals. Lost in the first round. Lost in the second round. It could have been much worse if Callahan was re-signed. Girardi and Staal. The Rangers have G on their cap for the next six years. He didn't retire. Gorton has to deal with the fallout. Staal is still here.
You're comparing the Rangers to Nashville. Last year at this time it was SJ. What's the point? San Jose lost in the first round last season. I don't think Nashville is guaranteed a spot back to the finals. SJ kept their core together and they went to the final. We can do the same thing. The Rangers lost to Ottawa. San Jose lost in the first round. Nashville could lose in the first round this coming season. The Rangers have a big hole at center and they want to play more young D. Gorton is discussing rebuild on the fly, trading away his top center for #1 pick and there does not seem to be a trade coming to replace Stepan. You guys are talking about the Rangers winning the Cup. There seems to be a big disconnect there.
NYR Viper
Registered User
Gorton has done a magnificent job of rebuilding a defense that needed a complete overhaul. Leaving last season, the Rangers had (2) guys signed who most people wanted to stick around. McDonagh and Skjei.
He bought our Girardi.
He re-signed Smith at a reasonable contract and term.
He signed Shattenkirk at a very reasonable term.
He and his scouts snagged Bereglazov AND Pionk for no assets.
He and his scouts targetted DeAngelo in the Stepan trade.
This organization now has a depth on the back end that it hasn't seen in many years.
McDonagh
Skjei
Shattenkirk
Smith
Bereglazov
DeAngelo
Pionk
Graves
Day
Staal
Holden
It's pretty remarkable.
Seeing how he has been able to rebuild that group on the fly in a single off-season, I have all the faith in the world that he is scouring to find another center.
He bought our Girardi.
He re-signed Smith at a reasonable contract and term.
He signed Shattenkirk at a very reasonable term.
He and his scouts snagged Bereglazov AND Pionk for no assets.
He and his scouts targetted DeAngelo in the Stepan trade.
This organization now has a depth on the back end that it hasn't seen in many years.
McDonagh
Skjei
Shattenkirk
Smith
Bereglazov
DeAngelo
Pionk
Graves
Day
Staal
Holden
It's pretty remarkable.
Seeing how he has been able to rebuild that group on the fly in a single off-season, I have all the faith in the world that he is scouring to find another center.
Play the season. See where you stand at the deadline (which I very much believe will be in a playoff spot). Look at the trade market for that top 6 veteran center and go to war in the playoffs.
It doesnt always have to be all doom and gloom.
It doesnt always have to be all doom and gloom.
silverfish
got perma'd
In one post, you complain about the core. In the next post, you say the Rangers would be stupid to buyout Staal.
Just like last off-season with Girardi, when people wanted to buy him out then. Can't do it then. Stupid.
Hello cake, you are delicious, I will eat you now.
Just like last off-season with Girardi, when people wanted to buy him out then. Can't do it then. Stupid.
Hello cake, you are delicious, I will eat you now.
Ah, nothing like the summer to breed optimism. And, why not? We still have not lost a game and we have all these shiny new toys to think about.
But, I also try to be realistic, all the while knowing that each season is unique, things happen both positively and in the negative, that impact the team and can't be foreseen. Last summer I felt that the team would scramble to make the playoffs. I was pleasantly surprised by the progress our young players made, essentially during the first half and the quality of our depth up front: in the final analysis, the team did better than I expected and predicted, making for a quite enjoyable season.
Looking at this team as now constituted, I see some major red flags that now, as of August 2, lead me to think again that this is a team that will scramble to, but ultimately make, the playoffs. I hope I'm wrong (again).
First off is Hank. There can be little doubt that he has slid from elite status and we are beginning to see the inevitable influence of age. All we can hope is that he is on a stable plateau that will last a few years. Coming in with "a chip on his shoulder" or more dedicated that usual (I don't see how that is even possible) is of little consequence. That is the stuff that fans and players say during the off season. There is also the fact that aging players are injured more. So as much as I love Hank, I no longer see him as the defining edge that he was for a decade. Not a criticism of Hank who is a future HOFer, an honor much deserved when the time comes, but a realistic assessment.
Second is our D. Yes, on paper it is much improved and more in line with the current thinking of what a modern D should be. It is easy to salivate about a McD/Shatty first pair. But Shatty's defensive shortcomings are well known. It, in some ways, strikes me as Yandle redux. Yandle was first pair offensively but 2nd or even 3rd pair defensively. As such, he was always somewhat out of place and it was difficult to decide where exactly he should play. In a perverse way, Yandle destabilized our entire D. I'm not sure where Shattenkirk should play 5X5 but am somewhat concerned with his "placement" in the defensive rotation. As for Smith: we shouldn't forget that, even though he impressed during his time here, he had played himself down the defensive pairings in Detroit and never quite lived up to expectations. Is this a case where we were taken in (happens frequently in all sports) by a limited sample size? I liked his resigning, but still need to see more. As for ADA and Bereglazov; time will tell. As for Staal: he will only get significant ice time if others fail. All coaches fall back on veterans when others do not do the job. AV is no fool, in fact, contrary to what most here feel, I think he is a top 6 coach in the league. Does he do everything that I would do as coach? Of course not. Does he play young players as much as I would? No. Does he leave me scratching my head sometimes? Yes. But that goes for every coach or manager for every team I have ever rooted for. On whole, and knowing that coaching is as much off-ice team dynamics management as on-ice strategy and tactics, I think AV is a fine coach (and I've seen every Ranger coach since Red Sullivan, if not earlier). Staal will only get significant ice time if others falter.
Third and perhaps foremost is our lack of depth at forward especially at center. We are an injury or two away from a major collapse. We don't have the depth to handle injuries of any kind. There is little in the way of long-term replacements at Hartford. Short-term, yes: career AHLers can always be counted on to supply short term help but falter over the long run. As of now, and with Fast out for a bit, we barely have enough players for 4 lines (and that includes Puempl, who I am not impressed with). Injuries are inevitable. They will happen. If more than one happens at a time: we are in big trouble. The strength of last year's team was our inordinate depth up front. Now we are deep on D, but severely lacking in depth at forward. This to me is a major red flag that I am not sure can be addressed before camp opens. I would like to think that we could trade Holden for a forward but with so many D seemingly out there for trades (Vegas seems to hold a lot of cards here), the market does not, at least now, seem conducive, for trading him. Hope I'm wrong....but.
So, it's summer. I'm missing hockey as much as anyone (and missing the sound of Sam Rosen's voice). I counting down to training camp as much as anyone. I'm hopeful and optimistic that this will be a fine season, just like everyone. But, I'm also trying to be realistic in accessing the team.
But, I also try to be realistic, all the while knowing that each season is unique, things happen both positively and in the negative, that impact the team and can't be foreseen. Last summer I felt that the team would scramble to make the playoffs. I was pleasantly surprised by the progress our young players made, essentially during the first half and the quality of our depth up front: in the final analysis, the team did better than I expected and predicted, making for a quite enjoyable season.
Looking at this team as now constituted, I see some major red flags that now, as of August 2, lead me to think again that this is a team that will scramble to, but ultimately make, the playoffs. I hope I'm wrong (again).
First off is Hank. There can be little doubt that he has slid from elite status and we are beginning to see the inevitable influence of age. All we can hope is that he is on a stable plateau that will last a few years. Coming in with "a chip on his shoulder" or more dedicated that usual (I don't see how that is even possible) is of little consequence. That is the stuff that fans and players say during the off season. There is also the fact that aging players are injured more. So as much as I love Hank, I no longer see him as the defining edge that he was for a decade. Not a criticism of Hank who is a future HOFer, an honor much deserved when the time comes, but a realistic assessment.
Second is our D. Yes, on paper it is much improved and more in line with the current thinking of what a modern D should be. It is easy to salivate about a McD/Shatty first pair. But Shatty's defensive shortcomings are well known. It, in some ways, strikes me as Yandle redux. Yandle was first pair offensively but 2nd or even 3rd pair defensively. As such, he was always somewhat out of place and it was difficult to decide where exactly he should play. In a perverse way, Yandle destabilized our entire D. I'm not sure where Shattenkirk should play 5X5 but am somewhat concerned with his "placement" in the defensive rotation. As for Smith: we shouldn't forget that, even though he impressed during his time here, he had played himself down the defensive pairings in Detroit and never quite lived up to expectations. Is this a case where we were taken in (happens frequently in all sports) by a limited sample size? I liked his resigning, but still need to see more. As for ADA and Bereglazov; time will tell. As for Staal: he will only get significant ice time if others fail. All coaches fall back on veterans when others do not do the job. AV is no fool, in fact, contrary to what most here feel, I think he is a top 6 coach in the league. Does he do everything that I would do as coach? Of course not. Does he play young players as much as I would? No. Does he leave me scratching my head sometimes? Yes. But that goes for every coach or manager for every team I have ever rooted for. On whole, and knowing that coaching is as much off-ice team dynamics management as on-ice strategy and tactics, I think AV is a fine coach (and I've seen every Ranger coach since Red Sullivan, if not earlier). Staal will only get significant ice time if others falter.
Third and perhaps foremost is our lack of depth at forward especially at center. We are an injury or two away from a major collapse. We don't have the depth to handle injuries of any kind. There is little in the way of long-term replacements at Hartford. Short-term, yes: career AHLers can always be counted on to supply short term help but falter over the long run. As of now, and with Fast out for a bit, we barely have enough players for 4 lines (and that includes Puempl, who I am not impressed with). Injuries are inevitable. They will happen. If more than one happens at a time: we are in big trouble. The strength of last year's team was our inordinate depth up front. Now we are deep on D, but severely lacking in depth at forward. This to me is a major red flag that I am not sure can be addressed before camp opens. I would like to think that we could trade Holden for a forward but with so many D seemingly out there for trades (Vegas seems to hold a lot of cards here), the market does not, at least now, seem conducive, for trading him. Hope I'm wrong....but.
So, it's summer. I'm missing hockey as much as anyone (and missing the sound of Sam Rosen's voice). I counting down to training camp as much as anyone. I'm hopeful and optimistic that this will be a fine season, just like everyone. But, I'm also trying to be realistic in accessing the team.
NYR Viper
Registered User
I think people need to realize that when a defense can properly move the puck consistently, offense can be generated from the back-end even without a stellar forward group. Hopefully DeAngelo makes the team and can provide some added offensive punch from the back-end along with a top-4 who should be able to properly move the puck quickly and get pucks through to the net.
NickyFotiu
NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
- Sep 29, 2011
- 17,385
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In early 2013-14 you were implying the Rangers wouldnt make the playoffs. They went to the 2013-14 finals. You were complaining that Zooks was making 1.15 mill he ended up leading the team in points. Go peddle your nonense to your sheep. I have too good a memory to buy any.
Off Sides
Registered User
- Sep 8, 2008
- 9,755
- 5,585
I'll preface this by saying I am at the point were I'd like to see them win a cup or build towards that goal and falling short just is not doing it for me personally.
The playoffs are a small sample size, but they are also against other teams who made the playoffs, in a series format, and the officiating level is just different. I'd call it a different sample all together.
Recent teams that have won cups have at least 1 skater who puts up near a point per game or more in their run, sometimes more than one skater, and have other skaters who also get put up like 3/4th a point per game
Unless the Rangers have those players I just don't see any Championships. Having an elite skater or 2, sometimes 3 allows every other player to play behind them in lesser roles while not facing the other teams best defenders as often.
Depth is nice and all, but those team who have skater who perform at an elite level in the playoffs also have depth.
I'm not sure why there is so much adversity to that, it's just the recent history.
PPG including PP
2017 Crosby 1.13, Malkin 1.12, Kessel .92, Guentzel .84
2016 Kessel .92, Crosby .79, Malkin .78, Bonino .75
2015 Kane 1.0, Keith .91, Toews .91, Hossa .74
2014 Kopitar 1.0, Carter .96, Williams .96, Gaborik .85
The Rangers, Which skaters are going to put up those sort of PPG in a playoff run? Brassard was the closest over that time period. Kreider in one run put up .87 in 2014. Zibanejad .75 last year. Nash .75 in 2015. Yet as a group, all in the same year, or any of them doing it over the course of a whole run, it seems unlikely to me especially after last year where only Zibanejad was above .58
Some of that is the weak PP, so perhaps Shattenkirk can help there, but also notice on that list how many are centers.
Rangers seem to have noticed some of this, Stepan was not putting up the points needed in the playoffs. They now have a couple defenders that can put up points, if they end up in the good graces of coaching, but I really am not sure I'd expect any of them to get near to a point per game for a whole run.
Can 4 of Zibanejad, Kreider, Zucc, Nash, McD, Shattenkirk add in Miller or Hayes if one wants, but can they compare to those listed above in a run? Can they do it if they face another team who has skaters who are putting up those numbers? I don't know, It seems plausible, yet to this point they have not, and the last two playoffs sure did not seem to indicate they were improving in that area.
Call me a pessimist or whatever but it's just how I see it. Even if some group of skaters were able to do it, I'm not totally sure the team would not just end up giving up more goals to the point where it nullified it. Hockey is a game of give and take. Last year was the Rangers best goals per game in any of their recent runs, yet they also gave up more goals per game than they had in any recent runs except the playoffs prior where they got waxed.
Overall I relate the Rangers to an anything can happen team, I just do not really subscribe to that theory. I think the team who has the best skater or two on the ice just has an overwhelming advantage should that team also have depth. I think the Rangers will always ultimately run into a team who has that advantage, and really every time they have been eliminated they did run into a team who had a better skater or two, or three.
The playoffs are a small sample size, but they are also against other teams who made the playoffs, in a series format, and the officiating level is just different. I'd call it a different sample all together.
Recent teams that have won cups have at least 1 skater who puts up near a point per game or more in their run, sometimes more than one skater, and have other skaters who also get put up like 3/4th a point per game
Unless the Rangers have those players I just don't see any Championships. Having an elite skater or 2, sometimes 3 allows every other player to play behind them in lesser roles while not facing the other teams best defenders as often.
Depth is nice and all, but those team who have skater who perform at an elite level in the playoffs also have depth.
I'm not sure why there is so much adversity to that, it's just the recent history.
PPG including PP
2017 Crosby 1.13, Malkin 1.12, Kessel .92, Guentzel .84
2016 Kessel .92, Crosby .79, Malkin .78, Bonino .75
2015 Kane 1.0, Keith .91, Toews .91, Hossa .74
2014 Kopitar 1.0, Carter .96, Williams .96, Gaborik .85
The Rangers, Which skaters are going to put up those sort of PPG in a playoff run? Brassard was the closest over that time period. Kreider in one run put up .87 in 2014. Zibanejad .75 last year. Nash .75 in 2015. Yet as a group, all in the same year, or any of them doing it over the course of a whole run, it seems unlikely to me especially after last year where only Zibanejad was above .58
Some of that is the weak PP, so perhaps Shattenkirk can help there, but also notice on that list how many are centers.
Rangers seem to have noticed some of this, Stepan was not putting up the points needed in the playoffs. They now have a couple defenders that can put up points, if they end up in the good graces of coaching, but I really am not sure I'd expect any of them to get near to a point per game for a whole run.
Can 4 of Zibanejad, Kreider, Zucc, Nash, McD, Shattenkirk add in Miller or Hayes if one wants, but can they compare to those listed above in a run? Can they do it if they face another team who has skaters who are putting up those numbers? I don't know, It seems plausible, yet to this point they have not, and the last two playoffs sure did not seem to indicate they were improving in that area.
Call me a pessimist or whatever but it's just how I see it. Even if some group of skaters were able to do it, I'm not totally sure the team would not just end up giving up more goals to the point where it nullified it. Hockey is a game of give and take. Last year was the Rangers best goals per game in any of their recent runs, yet they also gave up more goals per game than they had in any recent runs except the playoffs prior where they got waxed.
Overall I relate the Rangers to an anything can happen team, I just do not really subscribe to that theory. I think the team who has the best skater or two on the ice just has an overwhelming advantage should that team also have depth. I think the Rangers will always ultimately run into a team who has that advantage, and really every time they have been eliminated they did run into a team who had a better skater or two, or three.
Some of us really liked Pesce in his draft year and were hopeful the Rangers would take him. Another poster went off when someone suggested they missed out on Pesce when they took Tambellini and said something to the effect of "you don't take guys like that in the 3rd round."
Generally like the off season moves, yes center depth is an issue. Barring some mega trade for a 1C, we definitely need a 3C type. I think JG made a mistake in not buying out Staal. But my name is Fred and I'm just a man.
Raspewtin
Stay at home defenseman hater
- May 30, 2013
- 44,388
- 22,194
Every team in hockey is an "anything can happen" team because the cup is so damn hard to win.
Pittsburgh got their teeth kicked in 3/4 series they played and won. They needed NSH's forward depth to get decimated by injury and Rinne to have an epic collapse for them to even have a chance.
Because they have 3 "elite" skaters that doesn't count?
Pittsburgh got their teeth kicked in 3/4 series they played and won. They needed NSH's forward depth to get decimated by injury and Rinne to have an epic collapse for them to even have a chance.
Because they have 3 "elite" skaters that doesn't count?
silverfish
got perma'd
Needed 7 games against Washington and 7 games + 2OT against Ottawa.
What's the narrative this summer if Ottawa gets a bounce in game 7 OT? Bet you we're having a lot more discussions about how we lost the Brassard/Zibanejad trade because Brassard is a 'winner', and that we need a d-man "like" Karlsson if we expect to win anything ever.
GordonGecko
First Ping Pong Ball
By now the difference maker should be obvious for Pittsburgh, You need an elite 1C to be favored, and they have two of them/
Doesn't mean other teams can't win, but that's how you put the odds in your favor. Teams tank to get that elite player but then don't get the #1 seed or the #1 seed isn't all that special and you've gutted your team.
Rangers are doing everything right in terms of planning for what they can control. This offseason was all about solidifying the defense which was badly needed. Now hopefully zibs blossoms into that 1C or Gorts can find someone to fill the void
silverfish
got perma'd
Breaking news: Elite players make your team better, but guarantee nothing.
I'm not trying to be a dick specifically to you, but this narrative is so obvious, and so tired.
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
Stepan as an individual player isn't the point.
Keep in mind, this is as currently constructed. The Rangers don't have a top-of-the-league forward on the team, which means they need to rely on depth more than, say, Pittsburgh. And this is despite the argument that, although they got great performances from their elite Cs, Pittsburgh couldn't win anything until they solved their depth problems at forward with the acquisitions of Kessel, Bonino, and Hagelin plus the emergence of Sheary and Rust in 2016 and Guentzel in 2017. Not to mention the changes they made to their defensive depth.
The Rangers made the 13-14 finals on the strength of their depth at forward. They had 10 forwards with 10 or more points in the playoffs. Even a 4th liner put up 10 points in Boyle. Compare that to 5 for the Pens last year or 8 in 2016. My point is not that the Rangers need an elite forward or bust. It's that they need to have that depth in place moreso than a team with a different type of construction.
I did mention that this is my opinion until something changes with the roster, which I expect to happen at some point.
I said the Rangers missing the playoffs is not the end of the world. I wasn't calling for AV like some people were. It happens. Very competitive league. His name is Zuccarello. I seem to remember people here thought Zuccarello was worth $2M per. Why the hostility? Do I talk to you that way?
Gloom and doom. The Rangers have some really good young roster players. I really like Andersson and Chytil. The Rangers will need their young players to take that next step for them. The Rangers players improve. Gorton adds more youth to the organization by next summer. The team can build with their young players and they become core players. Which center are you acquiring and at what cost?
What are everyone's expectations this year for the Rangers? I'll be surprised if they pass the first round in their current state - and I'm fine with that.
Zibanejad, Hayes man, Zibanejad and Hayes... I guess the games will be fun to watch from a growth perspective.
Zibanejad, Hayes man, Zibanejad and Hayes... I guess the games will be fun to watch from a growth perspective.
NickyFotiu
NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
- Sep 29, 2011
- 17,385
- 9,498
I should speak to everyone respectfully even if I do not like how you sometimes portray things. I sincerely apologize. I should not take the low road. With that said last week you called posters stupid and imbeciles so you should consider that as well.
I know what Zuccarellos name is. Some people prefer Zuc. Some people prefer Zooks. Many people do not type up many peoples full names.
Back in 2013 you were happy Zooks was benched after 6 games. He got off to a bad start but it was 6 games. You did complain that he made 1.15 mill after not playing a full season yet he led our team in points that season so maybe our team made a good signing?
You just said if we re-signed Cally it would have been worse but back in 2013 you said Cally was a must sign.
Back in 2013 you repeatedly made posts implying it was unlikely we would make the playoffs. It was only October. We made the cup finals.
Now I do not want to make you eat crow but you should realize we all make mistakes. I do, you do, Slats does, Gorton does.....etc. None of us is perfect or infallible.
Raspewtin
Stay at home defenseman hater
- May 30, 2013
- 44,388
- 22,194
This is so oversimplified oh my goodness.
You know there are 17 other skaters yeah?
Whoa, having good players means you're more favored. Could have fooled me.
The narrative here is that one player changes needs on the rest of the team. This is false. There are many ways to win and there always have been. Chicago won the cup in 2013 AND 2015 with horrible forward depth and Toews going ghost all playoffs. What's the narrative here? They're the Blackhawks so they're fine?
What about LA? Carter, Kopitar, Doughty, and.........? Where's muh elite talent on that team that won two cups?
Boston?
The narrative changes depending on the team but with Pitts it has to be the worst. No doubt. They got laughed out of the playoffs in varying levels of hilarity over 5 straight years with Crosby and Malkin front and center.
If we lose in the 2nd round it doesn't matter what Gorton would have done because all this board would do is ***** and moan about some other fairy tale like "no heart" or "no desire". Once one story book is closed, another opens. Unless you win the cup (which requires laughable levels of luck, whether we'd like to acknowledge that or not) it's always something.
I hate quoting RB but when we lost in g7 to Tampa he posted "This team was one period away from the SCF and now the whole team sucks", which nails this entire board and its mentality beautifully.
Well since the season hasnt started yet, and like seemingly every year, I dont know what team will be the team that surprises and isnt going to be a playoff team as expected (Stars are one example last year).
But I have my eyes set on Stastny and Henrik Sedin at the moment.
Raspewtin
Stay at home defenseman hater
- May 30, 2013
- 44,388
- 22,194
I can't wait until Andersson and Chytil become Stepan and Kreider and then you start whining to trade them after their 2nd contract to "get younger". Because that's what your "vision" seems to be.
GordonGecko
First Ping Pong Ball
And yet completely accurate. It's like that wheel of fortune at the casino, there are 1's, 2's, 5's, 20's, 40's. Sure that 2 hits many times, sometimes you get the 40, but it's usually the 1 that comes up.
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