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Speculation: Roster Building Thread LXI - We are in The End Game now.

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Blueshirts777 said:
They were 6th last year before the lottery. With the additions they made this offseason and another year for the young kids, they should be alot better than a few more points.
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They were 6th but could have been much worse, were it not for the looser points. Also look at their record after the TDL. Do you really expect the K boys to replace the production of Hayes and a rejuvenated Zucc as early as next year?

Then factor in one of Krieder or Buch being traded. Sorry, but Panarin + K boys do not equal a Kreider/Buch + Hayes + Zucc.

Yes, it is another year for the kids but look at how young they are. We should certainly expect steps forward but only by viewing them through blue tinted glasses can one reasonably expect for ALL of them to take material steps forward.

Adding Trouba and Panarin was very nice, but that does not compensate for the production of what was lost and will still be lost.
 
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True Blue said:
Agreed. The non-goalie elder statesman. He has value in the locker room and Quinn believes he brings something for the kids. Forget about personal views, he is going nowhere.
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Yep. Look, coaches, GMs, etc... they're not infallible. They do make mistakes. But no one in those jobs is stupid or idiotic, and all decisions do have logic to them.

Maybe buying out someone other than Staal is a mistake, but it's the decision they're probably going to make if someone gets bought out. Given that they're not stupid or idiots, I'd rather spend my time trying to figure out why, rather than assigning each move a positive or a negative. What happens a lot is that, if I can understand the decision, it seems like I agree with it, but that isn't always the case. I just don't need to agree or disagree with everything that happens and I don't find my own judgments very interesting. I'm more interested in the thought process.
 
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If we're so convinced this is a transition year I fail to see the harm in re-distributing Staal's minutes to kids/less experienced D while someone like SKjeikhandles the boatload. It's not as if Staal is insulating them from the team getting destroyed. They're either gonna get crushed with Staal on the ice (guaranteed), or perform in a wide range of bad to good with the less experienced players on the ice. You would take the guaranteed loss over a situation that, at absolute worst, is just as bad as the guaranteed loss?
 
Tawnos said:
Players and people improve most by being put in the right environment for them to learn. Sometimes it'll be because they're successful and other times, it's because they failed. On the ice, the most important thing is experience, but it isn't required for that experience to be one where the other players are good. The environment is more important than anything. Staal does nothing to hurt that and, it seems, does a lot to make that environment better. People absolutely perform their best when put in a position to succeed, but for rookies and other green players, performance is a secondary consideration to learning and gaining experience. There is certainly a balance that needs to be struck in regards to a player's confidence, though.

On the experience thing, what if I told you that being hemmed in their own end isn't the worst thing in the world for a young defenseman? The more experience D get in their own zone, good OR bad, the more they'll develop positively if they have the talent and the right mindset (if they don't have the talent and the right mindset, they won't develop in any situation, regardless). The more they're hemmed in, the more opportunity they're going to have to learn from the mistakes in the D they're going to inevitably make. It's not the black & white bad thing you're making it out to be.
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Completely honestly, and not in a flaming way, this is one of the worst takes I've read in my life.
 
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Machinehead said:
Completely honestly, and not in a flaming way, this is one of the worst takes I've read in my life.
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We can agree to disagree, as I feel that way about the views of the person I was responding to about 90% of the time when talking about this topic.

That being said, I feel like I'm a lot closer to reality with that take than not.
 
Raspewtin said:
If we're so convinced this is a transition year I fail to see the harm in re-distributing Staal's minutes to kids/less experienced D while someone like SKjeikhandles the boatload. It's not as if Staal is insulating them from the team getting destroyed. They're either gonna get crushed with Staal on the ice (guaranteed), or perform in a wide range of bad to good with the less experienced players on the ice. You would take the guaranteed loss over a situation that, at absolute worst, is just as bad as the guaranteed loss?
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It depends on what the goal is. If the only standard of good or bad is related to wins/losses, then I'd agree with you 100%. In fact, if/when Staal doesn't get bought out this year, I'll likely be for a buy out next year if they're in a situation where they need to clear space. But I think for this season, he's more valuable on the roster providing the intangibles he does than the value of the savings we'd get from a buy out.
 
ZuccsFluffierFluffer said:
You aren't.
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How so? The reality of the situation is that Staal is highly likely to be on the roster. What would be your reasoning for why the front office would make this decision?

And if you agree with what I'm saying being the reason they make this decision, explain how I'm not close to the reality of it.

Your opinion of such a move isn't the reality of the situation. My opinion of whether I think the move is good or bad isn't the reality of the situation. The actual events and the actual reason for them are the reality of the situation.
 
Raspewtin said:
If we're so convinced this is a transition year I fail to see the harm in re-distributing Staal's minutes to kids/less experienced D while someone like SKjeikhandles the boatload. It's not as if Staal is insulating them from the team getting destroyed. They're either gonna get crushed with Staal on the ice (guaranteed), or perform in a wide range of bad to good with the less experienced players on the ice. You would take the guaranteed loss over a situation that, at absolute worst, is just as bad as the guaranteed loss?
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I would rather not rush kids into spots they are not ready for thus becoming the next Edmonton Oilers. We lose with Staal but at least we don't ruin a guy in the head that is not ready for a lot of NHL minutes.
 
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I fail to see a world where Staal does not get minutes. I dont see the reason to get worked up over it.

I also think Staal was not incredibly terrible last year. Its hard to gauge any defenseman with how bad the overall team system was. With Ruff still here its fair to say it may not be much different unless the talent of Trouba and youngsters take over, along with the need for Skjei to be better and ADA to continue to trend upward.
 
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Tawnos said:
That being said, I feel like I'm a lot closer to reality with that take than not.
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And that's what I mean about putting personal feelings aside. Your view on Staal is the realistic take on his future. Forget about what could happpen or what should happen. To me debating how best to buy him out is just not realistic, IMO. Like you, I do not believe that he is being bought out so might as well debate the future (at least for next year and probably the year after) with him in it as opposed to making lineups with him missing.
 
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If you were asking me to make the decision I’d buyout Staal but I think he’s the least likely of the three to go in actuality

Smith
Shattenkirk
Staal

would be my guess on how likely they are to be bought out with Staal being the least
 
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The only concern I have is that the organization owes itself the ability to play 1-2 kids this season. Lindgren, Hajek, Rykov and Fox. 2 of those kids should get legit minutes this year. Next year, they could conceivably add Reunanen, Miller and Lundqvist to that group. Steadily add kids, 1-2 a year.
 
RGY said:
In before Rangers are busy hiring their AHL Coach, so they wont be buying out anyone today.

:)
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If if there is one thing that Gorton is, it is methodical. He likes to have final say on each thing, and do his own due diligence before approval. AHL is done, now on to the next thing.
 
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Tawnos said:
It depends on what the goal is. If the only standard of good or bad is related to wins/losses, then I'd agree with you 100%. In fact, if/when Staal doesn't get bought out this year, I'll likely be for a buy out next year if they're in a situation where they need to clear space. But I think for this season, he's more valuable on the roster providing the intangibles he does than the value of the savings we'd get from a buy out.
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I want us to either be a good team or have a Maple Leafs in 2016 season where they were "unlucky" in the standings but performed pretty well with what they had. I don't think there's much sense in accumulation anymore, I think this is the year we need to start seeing progression, especially because despite having a great prospect pool, we can still confidently say we don't know what we have with a big handful of our players.
 
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BringBackLibertys said:
I would rather not rush kids into spots they are not ready for thus becoming the next Edmonton Oilers. We lose with Staal but at least we don't ruin a guy in the head that is not ready for a lot of NHL minutes.
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who said anything about rushing?

we are miles and miles of bad decisions from becoming Edmonton.
 
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RGY said:
I fail to see a world where Staal does not get minutes. I dont see the reason to get worked up over it.

I also think Staal was not incredibly terrible last year. Its hard to gauge any defenseman with how bad the overall team system was. With Ruff still here its fair to say it may not be much different unless the talent of Trouba and youngsters take over, along with the need for Skjei to be better and ADA to continue to trend upward.
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There are plenty of ways to gauge how bad he was and he was incredibly terrible last year.

All of the measurable statistics say that he was by far the worst amongst a bad group. Eye test backs those metrics up.

Staal has sucked under 2 different systems and multiple coaches. This isn't a brand new development, hes been bad for years. What should be even more alarming is that his game really tanked during the 2nd half of the season in a system that should be more friendly to him than AV's.
 
NYR Viper said:
The only concern I have is that the organization owes itself the ability to play 1-2 kids this season.
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As do I. And a way to deal with that would be to him not to dress in around 50 percent of the games. If Henke could be talked into having a job split for the last 40 games or so, why not Staal? This way both Hajek and Lindgren can get more time playing. I also think that Hajek enters camp as a presumptive top-6 favorite. He was playing that role at the time of his injury.
 
BringBackLibertys said:
OK, let me ask this a different way. You bought out Staal, who are your three left D on the NYR regular season roster? If two of them have less then a year of experience, then you are rushing things.
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Unless those guys are ready for NHL minutes?

IF they aren't, it's not hard to sign a guy at league minimum who is better than Staal.
 
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