Speculation: Roster Building Thread LXI - We are in The End Game now.

[JimmyG89]

When does the second buyout window end? Weds at what time again?

It will end for the Rangers on Wednesday at 5pm.

It opens today at 5pm. It's in part why they haven't done any buying out yet, they cannot do it for another few hours.

 

[Machinehead]

How so? The reality of the situation is that Staal is highly likely to be on the roster. What would be your reasoning for why the front office would make this decision?

And if you agree with what I'm saying being the reason they make this decision, explain how I'm not close to the reality of it.

Your opinion of such a move isn't the reality of the situation. My opinion of whether I think the move is good or bad isn't the reality of the situation. The actual events and the actual reason for them are the reality of the situation.

What you said is not about the reality that Staal is and will be on the roster.

What you said, unless I'm reading it wrong, is that being stuck with Staal is good for a partner's development, not because of anything Staal adds, but specifically because Staal is bad and the partner would get experience being hemmed in his own end.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

My biggest concern with Smith is his discipline, which also plays into the helping with development of kids. Smith took 80% more minor penalties per game last season than Staal. No stats on this, but Staal almost never takes an undisciplined penalty, where Smith takes them often.

That’s one way.

Also this is disingenuous as hell.

Staal had a penalty differential of -7. Smith was -4

 

[Tawnos]

What you said is not about the reality that Staal is and will be on the roster.

What you said, unless I'm reading it wrong, is that being stuck with Staal is good for a partner's development, not because of anything Staal adds, but specifically because Staal is bad and the partner would get experience being hemmed in his own end.

Close. What I was saying is that the coaching staff might not look at it as being a bad thing. I called it "not the worst thing"... I never said it was good, but that good things could come out of it.

And this is by way of explaining why the reality is that Staal will be on the roster.

 

[Tawnos]

Also this is disingenuous as hell.

Staal had a penalty differential of -7. Smith was -4

What in the world does penalty differential have to do with discipline?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

What in the world does penalty differential have to do with discipline?

It’s important to note since well, it kinda matters.

Staal drew all of 4 penalties last year which is incredible but not hard to understand as he was always lagging behind the play. Can’t draw penalties If you never have the puck and can’t take very many of them if you’re never around the guy with it.

 

[Machinehead]

Close. What I was saying is that the coaching staff might not look at it as being a bad thing.

Well then they'd be wrong because that's f***ing bananas.

Kids can develop through their own growing pains and asking them to work through things can certainly be a positive. Giving them a bad partner to teach them to play with a bad teammate does nothing for them. The whole point of roster building is not having to play straight up bad players.

If our staff is sitting there saying "yeah Staal is bad but we should keep him around to sabotage young players and teach them about development" then they can all get fired right now. There's no way back from a take like that.

I would much, much, much rather them just think Staal adds something.

 

[BringBackLibertys]

Also this is disingenuous as hell.

Staal had a penalty differential of -7. Smith was -4

I dont know what your fancy numbers mean, but in less games Smith took more than double the PIMS as Staal, and even if all things were equal (about bad penalties, which I don't think they are), that would make Smith a bigger liability on the ice in that way. Hows is that disingenuous?

 

[Alluckks]

Well then they'd be wrong because that's ****ing bananas.

Kids can develop through their own growing pains and asking them to work through things can certainly be a positive. Giving them a bad partner to teach them to play with a bad teammate does nothing for them. The whole point of roster building is not having to play straight up bad players.

If our staff is sitting there saying "yeah Staal is bad but we should keep him around to sabotage young players and teach them about development" then they can all get fired right now. There's no way back from a take like that.

I would much, much, much rather them just think Staal adds something.

Agreed... I’d rather learn how to do pushups normally before someone puts a cement block on my back

 

[Tawnos]

Well then they'd be wrong because that's ****ing bananas.

Kids can develop through their own growing pains and asking them to work through things can certainly be a positive. Giving them a bad partner to teach them to play with a bad teammate does nothing for them. The whole point of roster building is not having to play straight up bad players.

If our staff is sitting there saying "yeah Staal is bad but we should help him around to sabotage young players and teach them about development" then they can all get fired right now. There's no way back from a take like that.

I would much, much, much rather them just think Staal adds something.

I edited to explain what I meant better. What I'm saying is that it isn't necessarily the out-and-out bad thing for the young players to be in that situation, because it can give them some valuable experience. In no way am I saying that this would be better than them playing with a better player, just that it's not the end of the world for them to play with a bad partner. It's not necessarily something to avoid at all costs. Mostly, it was an illustration on how the quality of the partner is independent of the young player getting experience... how a poor quality partner does NOT equal poor quality experience.

Also, it wasn't about how to teaching them how to play with a bad player. It was about exposing them to as many things as possible.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I dont know what your fancy numbers mean, but in less games Smith took more than double the PIMS as Staal, and even if all things were equal (about bad penalties, which I don't think they are), that would make Smith a bigger liability on the ice in that way. Hows is that disingenuous?

He also drew more in fewer games.

The ratio probably stays about the same.

It’s disingenuous because the Op likely ignored that part to make his point.

Funny thing is, staal is so bad on the PK that him being in the box would actually be better than him on the ice.

 

[Tawnos]

It’s important to note since well, it kinda matters.

Staal drew all of 4 penalties last year which is incredible but not hard to understand as he was always lagging behind the play. Can’t draw penalties If you never have the puck and can’t take very many of them if you’re never around the guy with it.

It's not important to note for questions about discipline, since by and large, drawing penalties has nothing to do with taking penalties of your own (outside of the occasional scrum where you draw an opponent into taking a penalty and refrain from retaliating and taking one of your own).

So while Smith might have a marginally better penalty differential, which is a better net result for the team on the scoreboard, that doesn't tell us anything at all about his discipline level. Discipline is entirely about how he controls himself and nothing else.

 

[BringBackLibertys]

He also drew more in fewer games.

The ratio probably stays about the same.

It’s disingenuous because the Op likely ignored that part to make his point.

Funny thing is, staal is so bad on the PK that him being in the box would actually be better than him on the ice.

I don't care which one of these guys drew more, that is not important for the position we need them to play. A solid D-Dman is not drawing penalties, that is more an offensive players job. That is why these fancy stats sometimes are bad in my opinion. They don't understand D-Dmen, and have no really good way to measure them.

 

[SA16]

I don't care which one of these guys drew more, that is not important for the position we need them to play. A solid D-Dman is not drawing penalties, that is more an offensive players job. That is why these fancy stats sometimes are bad in my opinion. They don't understand D-Dmen, and have no really good way to measure them.

The amount of penalties drawn is a fancy stat?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I don't care which one of these guys drew more, that is not important for the position we need them to play. A solid D-Dman is not drawing penalties, that is more an offensive players job. That is why these fancy stats sometimes are bad in my opinion. They don't understand D-Dmen, and have no really good way to measure them.

This just isn’t true.

 

[BringBackLibertys]

The amount of penalties drawn is a fancy stat?

No, that stat he pulled out -7 or -4 was. Penalties drawn is not an important stat for a D-Dmen, that is what I said. That should be more important with your offensive players who drive possession. The D-Dmens job is to break up plays, block shots, and clear the puck.

 

[NYR Viper]

 

[Thirty One]

When Robinson Cano came up, I liked to talk about the A-Rod effect. No matter what Cano was struggling with in his early years, A-Rod was, for whatever reason, attracting all the negative attention from press and fans, shielding Cano from that one aspect of playing baseball in New York. For that reason, I kinda hope Staal and Shattenkirk are both here to shield our youngins' from the two segments of the fanbase.

 

[SA16]

No, that stat he pulled out -7 or -4 was. Penalties drawn is not an important stat for a D-Dmen, that is what I said. That should be more important with your offensive players who drive possession. The D-Dmens job is to break up plays, block shots, and clear the puck.

Penalties drawn minus penalties taken is a fancy stat?

 

[Vitto79]

Argh good move Devils if so

 

[BringBackLibertys]

Penalties drawn minus penalties taken is a fancy stat?

Sure, and also not important for a D-Dman. They are not on the ice to draw penalties.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Argh good move Devils if so

Blah

 

[SA16]

Sure, and also not important for a D-Dman. They are not on the ice to draw penalties.

Never realized subtraction was so fancy. +/- must be a fancy stat too then.

 

[nyr2k2]

I dont know what your fancy numbers mean, but in less games Smith took more than double the PIMS as Staal, and even if all things were equal (about bad penalties, which I don't think they are), that would make Smith a bigger liability on the ice in that way. Hows is that disingenuous?

It's nothing fancy. It's the difference between penalties drawn by a player and penalties taken by a player.

Smith took 20 penalties and drew 16.
Staal took 11 penalties and drew 4.

That would make Staal more of a liability in the sense that he takes substantially more penalties than he draws. Smith is closer to breaking even.

It's like Sean Avery. So many people complained about his penalties. 10-11, he took 27 and drew 26. The year before he took a staggering 31 but drew 34! You gotta look at it from both perspectives. PIM doesn't tell you anything, really.

 

[NYR Viper]