Speculation: Roster Building Thread II (2022-23): The Puck is Prepared to be Mounted

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This is a very well thought out post and I realize you’re trying to look at it from Gallant’s perspective. But none of these are good reasons.

You start out by saying that you think Kravtsov has been responsible out there. If true, there’s no reason to healthy scratch him.

Scratching Brodzinski is not a big deal. He’s a minor leaguer. He’s only up bc Carpenter sucks. Slide Vesey or Goodrow to the 4th line and scratch him.

Scratch Blais maybe. He hasn’t done a damn thing in 2 years. 0 goals as a Ranger. He’s a decent 4th liner but he’s not beyond the press box.

Although I wouldn’t choose this route, can also scratch Gauthier. He’s played better this year, but he’s faded of late.

“Break up the fourth line” that he just put together 2 games ago….

Benching Kravtsov bc he is “Panarin’s toy” is kind of crazy, if true, that’s a fireable offense in and of itself. Saying Gallant is scratching Kravtsov bc he doesn’t want him to play chaperone for Chytil and Panarin and neuter his game is giving Gallant too much credit. It’s just very unlikely.

Kravtsov should be in the lineup over Vesey, Blais, Gauthier, or Brodzinski. And yes those players’ skill sets are better suited for the bottom 6 than VK’s, but not better suited than Goodrow’s, who would replace any one of them when VK takes Goodrow’s spot.

This whole thing is bananalands to me. The coach doesn’t like the player. There’s no rational basis to justify scratching him. The team needs to see what it has with him, or up his trade value. I’m pretty much starting to accept that they will either trade him soon or fire Gallant, it just isn’t going to work.
I would say the whole Kravtsov debate can and likely should be boiled down to these two options:

1. Play the kids for the long term success of the franchise. Including VK and Zac Jones. (And Laf, Chytil, Kakko, Schneider, Miller)

2. Put your best lineup out there to win on a nightly basis - sometimes that’s the kids, sometimes not.

If Gallant wasn’t fighting to keep his job, if Drury and Dolan weren’t fighting to keep playoff revenue a possibility and if the Vets could understand the big picture then 9 out of 10 times option 1 should be the answer, no debate needed.

Personally, I think this team will not be much more than mediocre under Gallant. I just don’t think he can make the adjustments required to consistently put the team in contention. Not enough structure and seemingly hardly any tweaks to systems. Only line changes.

So I would pick option 1 and ride or die with the kids. If we miss the playoffs, then fine - 2 first round picks. But we need to know what we have and we need these kids to grow more confidence. Don’t even care about them earning anything. Just want them to feel like they can excel at NHL level. Because treading water or being a decent middle of the lineup player isn’t enough. They need to be more. Much much more.
 
I would say the whole Kravtsov debate can and likely should be boiled down to these two options:

1. Play the kids for the long term success of the franchise. Including VK and Zac Jones. (And Laf, Chytil, Kakko, Schneider, Miller)

2. Put your best lineup out there to win on a nightly basis - sometimes that’s the kids, sometimes not.

If Gallant wasn’t fighting to keep his job, if Drury and Dolan weren’t fighting to keep playoff revenue a possibility and if the Vets could understand the big picture then 9 out of 10 times option 1 should be the answer, no debate needed.

Personally, I think this team will not be much more than mediocre under Gallant. I just don’t think he can make the adjustments required to consistently put the team in contention. Not enough structure and seemingly hardly any tweaks to systems. Only line changes.

So I would pick option 1 and ride or die with the kids. If we miss the playoffs, then fine - 2 first round picks. But we need to know what we have and we need these kids to grow more confidence. Don’t even care about them earning anything. Just want them to feel like they can excel at NHL level. Because treading water or bring a decent middle sod the lineup player isn’t enough. They need to be more. Much much more.
Except that the numbers show 1. And 2. Both say play the kids and Kratsov.
 
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As we've all expected, Rongos lead the league in posts hit. However, not in crossbars. What does it mean? Idk.




edit: nvm this is just player leaders, obv Trochek is the leader in posts I would like to see team stats for these too,\
 
This. You can add depth players at a reduced cost for sure, or you can add impact players where the holes are vacant (top 6 RW) to push players that shouldn't be there (Goodrow) to their proper places (bottom 6) to CREATE depth through impact/elite additions.

Fitzy, I agree with this. The PP is the part of Kane that makes it almost unworkable. I mean you're not paying a high cost to get him to put him on a 2PP that plays 30 seconds.
So you either have to split time more evenly or put a square peg in a round hole and put Kane/Panarin in the bumper. Just doesn't work.
The fit is clear as 2RW with Chytil and Panarin though at ES.

Panarin will not be traded. This isn't even a possibility. People don't just waive NMC's unless they request trade or are an aging vet on a bottom feeder. Panarin won't request trade (and we aren't going to force him to) and as currently constructed with longterm contracts and youth, we won't be a bottom feeder anytime soon.

I feel like this is a negative comment towards me, when the whole post was about how I haven't mentioned it for weeks or made it a topic of convo until someone else did, then I added and contributed.
Or its positive and you're sick of people on here trying to contort themselves into not getting Kane. I can't tell.

What I do know is this team is going to add at the deadline at the expense of some picks. Contenders always add, and we aren't accruing significant cap space for the fun of it. I could either see 2 middle 6 forwards and a 3rd pair D, or big forward + 3rd pair D.

Also, you can count on Panarin, Zibanejad, Fox, Kreider, Trocheck, and Trouba being here until their NMC's expire. They aren't waiving prior. The fantasies of their trades before that are just that - fantasies. Players and agents construct their contracts a certain way for a reason.
No sorry, I wasn’t taking a shot at you. I find it funny that people are giving you shit but revel in the Kravtsov love story
 
No sorry, I wasn’t taking a shot at you. I find it funny that people are giving you shit but revel in the Kravtsov love story
Hahaha just couldn't tell, no worries.

Kravtsov looked real good when he was back in the lineup, and I'm not sure why he was taken out, because it wasn't really warranted.

But facts are that he was taken out, the team played its best game since the opener against Tampa without him in Vegas, and hung in there against Colorado for the win.

I think we can all agree, while Goodrow does alot of things defensively and intangibles better than Kravstov, he is not better suited for the top 6 RW slot. That said, while it is not the best choice and it is frustrating, its not like Kravtsov moves the needle that much.

We're not sitting the second coming of Sidney Crosby, we're sitting a guy who is 4 years removed from being a 9th overall pick who - while he looked good in his last stint, showed improved play both sides of the puck, and stayed healthy - still wasn't changing the game or taking it over the way some act like he does.

The answer for the top 6/middle 6 scoring winger is outside the organization. Its why we got the 2nd 1st for Lundkvist, and its why we are accruing cap space, knowing this roster has a couple holes to fill (1 top 6 winger or 1-2 middle 6 wingers, 3LD).

Yes, I've heard it all about how some on the board want to keep the 1st rounders because its the "deepest draft" in x amount of years. But We have big money guys locked in long term, young players and another one coming Othmann, and contending teams rarely, if ever, pick twice in first round or actively hold onto draft capital.

The likelyhood of us picking two times in the first round is about 10% if you ask me. Those picks would either be retained and one would be dealt at draft for something or they'd be packaged together to move up, or, more realistically, 1 will be getting moved at this deadline.

You don't have a perfect storm of a need for a top 6 winger, two 1st rounders, ample cap space and a contending team with an elite goalie, defenseman, winger and centre just to sit on your hands at the TDL because its a deep draft or want to punt on this year to potentially use the pick at the draft for a trade or draft a guy the org won't see for 5 years because we're already seeing the logjam of talented youngsters and high $$ NMC stars.
 
High end rentals rarely go for anything less than a guaranteed first, unless its an overtly weak year.

Kane, ROR, Tarasenko while almost certainly garner a 1st.

The 2nd rounders will likely be allocated to guys such as Monahan, JVR, Toews, etc.

If these moves with are really going to give us close to 7 million in cap space at deadline...that gives us room for Kane @ 50% + a defenseman @ around $1M for 3rd pair veteran option.

I believe this is the likely route.

1st, Kravtsov and another pick or B level prospect to Chicago for Kane @ 50%

2023 COL 3rd or 2024 NYR 4th to a team for a veteran defenseman

Laf-Zib-Kakko
Panarin-Chytil-Kane
Kreider-Trocheck-Vesey
Blais-Goodrow-Gauthier

Lindgren-Fox
Miller-Trouba
??-Schneider
Hajek
At best a second round exit...if not the first....I fail to see the rush to toss away first rounders and prospects for old man rentals. The amount of luck we would need to win 8-9 games is unfathomable . Patience folks....build from within and and we will be better off in the long run ....we might even get lucky before then. Do NOT trade away Kravs or any kids at this time . Give them more ice and chances to play themselves out of here or to become maybe a Tage Thompson ....nobody wants to see an Amonte like kid or a Doug Weight type shipped out for an 8 game rental.
 
The Kravtsov debate on here seems to be neglecting the main point for Gallant. Coach’s number 1 objective right now is getting the four lines to continuously play the right way e.g. manage the puck well, play more north/south, win more battles in the blue paint, etc. all season we’ve done a terrible job of playing a full 60 with all the Is dotted and Ts crossed.

I think Kravtsov has been very responsible on the ice but if you put him in top 9 role. You are likely moving Goody down and scratching brodzinski, only because the two top nine spots that make the most sense for Kravtsov belong to Goody and Vesey. Both of them PK. So both are staying in the lineup. They would just be moved down to the 4th line for VK to play. So then one of the 4th liners would have to sit. Brodzinski is the most likely candidate, followed by Gauth or Blais. TBH gauth and Blais provide a ton of size and unexpected skill for a fourth line and I think Gallant prefers to play them as their effectiveness increases the rest of the lineups effectiveness. Unfortunately, none of those guys on our 4th line PK either. So again, to get Kravtsov in, you have to break up the 4th line. Finally I think Galkant prefers to take away Panarin toys at 5v5. Chytil is very N/S as is Goody. And Panarin has been the worst at forcing passes and turning pucks over. I thino Gallant is trying to minimize that issue. In addition, Chytil is only meh in his own zone. Playing him with Bread is a big risk. Having Goody play chaperone makes more sense than Kravtsov. Kravtsov should not be asked to babysit as it neuters his game just like it neutered Kakko to play with Bread and Strome. Goody also takes draws and can spot in at times for Chytil if nec.

So there are a lot of legit reasons why Kravtsov is odd man out right now. Team is still needing to solidify identity, d coverage and playing style. So yeah, are Kravtsov’s underlying numbers strong, yup. Are they stronger than others, yes. Do they need to play him? Yup!! But while the ship is still being righted I get why Goody and Vesey are where they are. Now if any one of Kravtsov, Gauthier, Blais or laffy could start PKing, it might help VK get more time. Honestly I’d love to see VK PK. I think he’d be great at it. That would solve a bunch of problems.
This is a very well thought out post and I realize you’re trying to look at it from Gallant’s perspective. But none of these are good reasons.

You start out by saying that you think Kravtsov has been responsible out there. If true, there’s no reason to healthy scratch him.

Scratching Brodzinski is not a big deal. He’s a minor leaguer. He’s only up bc Carpenter sucks. Slide Vesey or Goodrow to the 4th line and scratch him.

Scratch Blais maybe. He hasn’t done a damn thing in 2 years. 0 goals as a Ranger. He’s a decent 4th liner but he’s not beyond the press box.

Although I wouldn’t choose this route, can also scratch Gauthier. He’s played better this year, but he’s faded of late.

“Break up the fourth line” that he just put together 2 games ago….

Benching Kravtsov bc he is “Panarin’s toy” is kind of crazy, if true, that’s a fireable offense in and of itself. Saying Gallant is scratching Kravtsov bc he doesn’t want him to play chaperone for Chytil and Panarin and neuter his game is giving Gallant too much credit. It’s just very unlikely.

Kravtsov should be in the lineup over Vesey, Blais, Gauthier, or Brodzinski. And yes those players’ skill sets are better suited for the bottom 6 than VK’s, but not better suited than Goodrow’s, who would replace any one of them when VK takes Goodrow’s spot.

This whole thing is bananalands to me. The coach doesn’t like the player. There’s no rational basis to justify scratching him. The team needs to see what it has with him, or up his trade value. I’m pretty much starting to accept that they will either trade him soon or fire Gallant, it just isn’t going to work.
Both these posts are rooted in logic, very well thought out, and very well said. Both make convicning arguments for either side of the coin.

Have we considered another thing? Aside from Panarin, maybe theres a large portion of the dressing room upset that he abandoned the organization after being sent down and left for Russia. If leadership doesn't respect the kid, the coaching staff doesn't respect him, and he's only there because the organization is forcing it trying to save face, wouldn't it hurt morale to play him?

The example of players who endured trying times with the org is long:

Gauthier, while he did reportedly request a trade, took his demotion to the minors and played his way back up and is now a contributing member of the 4th line bringing a good mix of speed and physicality with a hint of scoring touch.
Chytil was demoted to the minors at one point, but put his head down and went to work.
Lafreniere and Kakko are now on the top line, but neither gets alot of PP time like many top picks and Kakko was scratched in Game 6. Did he request a trade? No. He said it was on himself to use the disappointment to prove that he should be in lineup every night.
Schneider lost the 3RD job to Nils Lundkvist, but went down to AHL and ended up winning the spot over.

Vitali Kravtsov lost a job to Julien Gauthier and neglected to report to the AHL, get accustomed to the organization, the fellow young players, and NHL ice and held out until Drury allowed him to play in KHL. He didn't have an agreement with org before he left, he just left and forced the orgs hand.

If I was any player in that room, sure I'd be happy he reported and worked harder this year, but I would still be quite sour about how many guys in that same dressing room endured the same fate as Krav, but never went about it the way he did.

Brodzinski is a career minor league. But the guy works his bag off, and his feed fits in with Gauthiers and his willingness to grind fits in with Blais. In my opinion, Goodrow, while the ideal 4C, now is rendered slow when compared to the pace of that line. And we started scratching Reaves because his with Blais and Goodrow was too slow to maintain pace.
In my opinion, we could add a 4C at deadline that is a Bodzinski style player, but who is an upgrade.
 
At best a second round exit...if not the first....I fail to see the rush to toss away first rounders and prospects for old man rentals. The amount of luck we would need to win 8-9 games is unfathomable . Patience folks....build from within and and we will be better off in the long run ....we might even get lucky before then. Do NOT trade away Kravs or any kids at this time . Give them more ice and chances to play themselves out of here or to become maybe a Tage Thompson ....nobody wants to see an Amonte like kid or a Doug Weight type shipped out for an 8 game rental.
Tage Thompson was acquired O'Reilly trade and is not a homegrown Sabres talent. If we trade Krav and he ever has a 5 goal game I will delete my account on here and never watch hockey again.

Krav will never be anything near Tage, and certainly won't be for us.

If we are at best a 2nd round exit with luck, we have bigger worries than saving the kids and draft pics. We have Panarin, Zibanejad, Kreider, Trocheck, Trouba, Fox and Igor here for atleast July 1st, 2024. Kreiders NMC converts then, and for 2024-2025 Troubas converts.

The earliest we clear significant cap space is then. So we would waste this years and next years youth on low $$ deals and this years and next years cores prime for "patience". That is a horrible plan.

The oldest skaters on our roster as 31 (Panarin, Kreider). Right now is the PERFECT storm of youth on cheap deals and vets still in prime to use our assets for runs. We wait 2 years and Panarin is 34. Kreider and Trouba likely become cap casualties like Goodrow and/or Lindgren will likely need to be this summer.

Like last year, this year may be the perfect time to add a rental before we lose our ability too in the future. We've got the core all at good ages in place, and the youth have not made it through their bridge contracts yet, the first that will are Chytil this offseason and Kakko next. Miller and Laf can be bridged this offseason (although NYR prefer to sign D long term so maybe Miller gets a McDonagh-esque ext.).

I don't see the reason to wait. We have 2 first rounders, use one.
 
I do think there's a problem regarding the vets and the kids in the room. Panarin has taken Kravtsov under his wing because he's Russian, but has anyone really done that for Kakko, Laffy and Chytil? Mika and Kreider certainly don't seem like the types to do so.

Technically, Gallant should've been the perfect coach to fix this, bring the room together. But is he really?
 
As we've all expected, Rongos lead the league in posts hit. However, not in crossbars. What does it mean? Idk.




edit: nvm this is just player leaders, obv Trochek is the leader in posts I would like to see team stats for these too,\


NHL.com has player stats on posts:

A little excel magic confirms the NYR are in fact #1 in the league in posts hit this season:


TeamPosts Hit
NYR
28​
BUF
26​
SEA
24​
EDM
24​
FLA
23​
NSH
22​
NJD
22​
WSH
21​
WPG
21​
SJS
21​
OTT
20​
BOS
20​
VAN
19​
TOR
18​
CGY
18​
TBL
18​
CAR
17​
PIT
17​
MIN
17​
PHI
17​
CBJ
15​
DAL
15​
MTL
14​
VGK
14​
LAK
13​
DET
12​
COL
12​
ARI
12​
CHI
11​
NYI
11​
STL
9​
ANA
8​
 
I do think there's a problem regarding the vets and the kids in the room. Panarin has taken Kravtsov under his wing because he's Russian, but has anyone really done that for Kakko, Laffy and Chytil? Mika and Kreider certainly don't seem like the types to do so.

Technically, Gallant should've been the perfect coach to fix this, bring the room together. But is he really?
I personally think as a whole of leadership is good with the kids as a group, don't think it was ever neccessary that one vet took each kid under their own wing.

To me, Panarin has needed to do so with Krav because they are both Russian, and because I have a hunch that alot of the group likely doesn't respect Krav.
 
Last edited:
How are we fitting Garland under the cap? I doubt Vancouver is looking to retain for the next 3 years, and even if they are willing, he still costs more than we can afford. Who are you moving out to make room for him?

The decision needs to be made on various fronts but depending on where Lafreniere, Chytil and Miller are at come the deadline along with the projected cap increase it’s distinctly possible they could fit him in around $4m. Next year is really the only squeeze more than likely as beyond that options open up with Trouba and Kreider and even possibly someone like Goodrow.

If I’m giving up assets at this deedling it’s for a longer term solution. Garland fills a hole.
 
Hahaha just couldn't tell, no worries.

Kravtsov looked real good when he was back in the lineup, and I'm not sure why he was taken out, because it wasn't really warranted.

But facts are that he was taken out, the team played its best game since the opener against Tampa without him in Vegas, and hung in there against Colorado for the win.

I think we can all agree, while Goodrow does alot of things defensively and intangibles better than Kravstov, he is not better suited for the top 6 RW slot. That said, while it is not the best choice and it is frustrating, its not like Kravtsov moves the needle that much.

We're not sitting the second coming of Sidney Crosby, we're sitting a guy who is 4 years removed from being a 9th overall pick who - while he looked good in his last stint, showed improved play both sides of the puck, and stayed healthy - still wasn't changing the game or taking it over the way some act like he does.

The answer for the top 6/middle 6 scoring winger is outside the organization. Its why we got the 2nd 1st for Lundkvist, and its why we are accruing cap space, knowing this roster has a couple holes to fill (1 top 6 winger or 1-2 middle 6 wingers, 3LD).

Yes, I've heard it all about how some on the board want to keep the 1st rounders because its the "deepest draft" in x amount of years. But We have big money guys locked in long term, young players and another one coming Othmann, and contending teams rarely, if ever, pick twice in first round or actively hold onto draft capital.

The likelyhood of us picking two times in the first round is about 10% if you ask me. Those picks would either be retained and one would be dealt at draft for something or they'd be packaged together to move up, or, more realistically, 1 will be getting moved at this deadline.

You don't have a perfect storm of a need for a top 6 winger, two 1st rounders, ample cap space and a contending team with an elite goalie, defenseman, winger and centre just to sit on your hands at the TDL because its a deep draft or want to punt on this year to potentially use the pick at the draft for a trade or draft a guy the org won't see for 5 years because we're already seeing the logjam of talented youngsters and high $$ NMC stars.

Why go looking for something you might already have if you just let him play? We actually have no idea what Kravtsov is because we have seen him in the lineup so little. He was hurt and still looked good when he came back after all that time off. It does nothing for us to have him sitting, the last couple games he played he had a goal and looked good all game then got scratched. If we are looking to trade him, he needs to play, if we aren't he needs to play. Not playing him is the dumbest thing we could be doing, especially considering we have been using Vesey, Brodzinski and Carpenter instead. Its asinine yet not surprising considering our track record with the kids. Regarding the 1st round picks , our minor league depth is horrendous, we need to add more young players through the draft.
 
At best a second round exit...if not the first....I fail to see the rush to toss away first rounders and prospects for old man rentals. The amount of luck we would need to win 8-9 games is unfathomable . Patience folks....build from within and and we will be better off in the long run ....we might even get lucky before then. Do NOT trade away Kravs or any kids at this time . Give them more ice and chances to play themselves out of here or to become maybe a Tage Thompson ....nobody wants to see an Amonte like kid or a Doug Weight type shipped out for an 8 game rental.
Or we could draft a couple more first rounders who we sit around waiting for as our core gets older and our past first rounders do or don't get better. No guarantees out there.
 
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Shouldn't be Goodrow vs Kravtsov. I dont completely hate Goodrow with Panarin and Chytil if they want a guy on that line to do the dirty work. Probably wouldn't be my first choice, he made a crazy pass the other night but theres a number of times where hes also botched plays. Nice to have a meat and potatoes guy on that line but that's the trade-off. Right now it really comes down to Blais or Gauthier... Gauthier has cooled off a bit since coming back from the minors, but Blais seems to be the odd man out on that bottom line. He's just not on his game right now. I'd rather see Vesey bumped down to the 4th line and sub Kravtsov back into the top 9.

Other thing as well, before we talk about acquiring a top 6 RW we should explore another option. Maybe something that can be solved internally. We signed Trocheck to this big, long deal, the guy can play center AND the wing. It's not something we've really tried yet. Chytil looks real solid in that 2 spot. Goodrow can slide into the 3rd center role. That's the perk of having a utility player like that. Maybe that Panarin line looks better with Trocheck on the wing rather than as the pivot. Panarin, Chytil, Trocheck, let Vinny take the faceoffs. Maybe Kakko goes there and Vinny with Zibs? Spitballing here, I'm just saying that it's definitely another option if they feel the right side is too weak. Having Chytil and Goodrow offer some flexibility to try Trocheck at RW.

Additionally, I'll throw this in there. We were out of a playoff spot not too many days ago. Detroit is 1 point behind with 2 games at hand, Florida and Washington are right behind them. Caps are struggling with injuries this year but they can make a push. On paper, we should probably be a playoff team but it's entirely possible that we miss. If thats the case there's really no conversation about rentals. I do think though that there's some moves that makes sense regardless. Cheap players with some term.

I think Columbus would make a lot of sense. Boone Jenner and/or Sean Kuraly. Both cheap enough that you can realistically add and still retain our RFAs. Locked up for a few more years. Hard nosed, utility types that can play center or wing. Both kill penalties. Jenner's got more offense than Kuraly but will probably cost more. Kuraly has good speed, makes a million more than Blais, would definitely be an upgrade.

Couple of skill guys I'd look at if we're playoff bound, Barabanov on the Sharks would be a nice add. Real cheap, signed through next year. Kubalik on Detroit would be a good target, signed through next year. The moves they made this off-season though suggests to me they're looking to turn the corner so I don't know that they'd look to move him, especially if they're in or close to a playoff spot. Both players signed for $2.5 million a year
 
I’d much rather add Tarasenko than Kane, but only if we can sign him to a reasonable extension first and not if it’s going to cost us a blue chip and/or a first. Has to be structured around a salary dump for St. Louis and a discount contract for us to put him on a line with Panarin.
Well, that’s unrealistic.
 
Or we could draft a couple more first rounders who we sit around waiting for as our core gets older and our past first rounders do or don't get better. No guarantees out there.
Our minor league depth is abysmal, we need more young players, we have nobody to call up and that needs to change in the future.
 
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When has that ever stopped anyone on this site? Didn't you hear, first we're getting Kane, then we're unloading Panarin & his anchor of a contract, then Zegras is coming home, plus Matthews is on his way here when his deal is up. Am I missing anything?
Do you mean to tell me Hajek and Kravtsov doesn’t get you Zegras?
 
If the assumption on trading Panarin is that he won’t he waive to be traded to a hopeless bottom feeder, that is absolutely correct. However, to say it is a complete pipe dream simply ignores a lot of context. Drury was irate at his PO performance. Panarin himself even acknowledged it. Trouba has already taken a thinly veiled shot at him in the media. He was a hired gun from the old regime while the new regime wants more speed and cap space.

The final decision is unquestionably Panarin’s, but if you think his role on the team is viewed as bulletproof, then you’re not paying attention.
 
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