Speculation: Roster Building Thread DCLXXVI: It's All Happening

[GoAwayPanarin]

not buying into that signs of decline stuff.

that team last year was toxic. forget the numbers, the whole team mailed it in.

duchene is 26 and can still fly. he fits this team like a glove. the avs will move him and pretty much all teams will take a look. he's a legit high end 1C.

its more than just a lateral move. its an improvement and fits the gorton model.

Did you watch him at all last year?

He's legit lost a step and it wasn't from a lack of effort. He isn't nearly as fast as he used to be. Faster than Stepan despite that? Sure, but when the feet start to go a little bit the rest of your game usually follows pretty quickly.

Hes most likely a lateral move with the potential to be more (and then much more expensive) but also an equal chance to be less (and then you've just wasted one of your better assets.)

Easy pass for me. Let the Isles overpay for him.

 

[offdacrossbar]

Did you watch him at all last year?

He's legit lost a step and it wasn't from a lack of effort. He isn't nearly as fast as he used to be. Faster than Stepan despite that? Sure, but when the feet start to go a little bit the rest of your game usually follows pretty quickly.

Hes most likely a lateral move with the potential to be more (and then much more expensive) but also an equal chance to be less (and then you've just wasted one of your better assets.)

Easy pass for me. Let the Isles overpay for him.

sure did. he's still a dangerous player. i think you are reaching when you say he's lost it.

last season that team was such a train wreck i discount what i saw pretty much. he looked disinterested and like the ret of that team, playing without passion. that was a lost season.

could that situation contribute to his looking slower ? sure could. he's been healthy and he's still got elite wheels.

his f/o % is stellar and his ability to create and finish is much better than derek's- even on his best day.

if you are worried about duchene getting slower, then you must be on the ledge thinking about stepan getting slower- is the possible ? and having 4 years left on his deal.

thats a realistic deal that makes sense for both teams. the $$ is similar and unlike alot of the pie in the sky babble here, this is something that could happen in the real world.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

sure did. he's still a dangerous player. i think you are reaching when you say he's lost it.

last season that team was such a train wreck i discount what i saw pretty much. he looked disinterested and like the ret of that team, playing without passion. that was a lost season.

could that situation contribute to his looking slower ? sure could. he's been healthy and he's still got elite wheels.

his f/o % is stellar and his ability to create and finish is much better than derek's- even on his best day.

if you are worried about duchene getting slower, then you must be on the ledge thinking about stepan getting slower- is the possible ? and having 4 years left on his deal.

thats a realistic deal that makes sense for both teams. the $$ is similar and unlike alot of the pie in the sky babble here, this is something that could happen in the real world.

Yes but heres the difference: Duchene was legit slower last year and it wasn't an effort thing, hes lost a step. Stepan has yet to show signs of slowing down, hes just slow.

f/o ability is overrated, so that isn't a selling point for me.

Want no part of Duchene. Even if he bounces back a bit (which he probably will) hes going to be crazy expensive in a few years. If the goal is to get younger, Duchene doesn't exactly help with that either.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

if you are worried about duchene getting slower, then you must be on the ledge thinking about stepan getting slower- is the possible ? and having 4 years left on his deal.

1. Stepan is slow. His style of play generally ages well, unlike Duchene's. Stepan being slow doesn't impact his game, unlike Duchene
2. Stepan being signed for 4 more years (until he's 31) is better than having Duchene for 2, which means you have to pay him more when he is a UFA at age 28

 

[RangerBoy]

$75M cap

 

[NYR Viper]

If they want Duchene, just wait for him to hit UFA.

 

[bernmeister]

I could be wrong but I think a problem for Florida might be Nash's actual salary. Cap hit is $7.8m but he gets $8.2m in paid money. Dallas, who have a projected to be $16m under the cap may fit better. Limited NTC may also put a damper on Florida, but I don't know that as a fact.

Right now Dallas' wings are Benn, Roussel, McKenzie, Cracknell, Hemsky, Ritchie, Sharp and Hudler. Not exactly overwhelming outside of Benn.

I still maintain that Nash's best value will be closer to the deadline when his cap hit is down. Obviously there's a risk that we hang onto him if we are competitive or he gets hurt. I'm not worried about his production declining. If he's a rental, that team will value his two way play and view him as a complimentary piece. He would easily return a 1st in the 2018 draft and a high prospect/young player. It wouldn't have to be a deadline deal, probably after the new year. I take that risk but I understand the thought process of just cashing in now.

That's not an unreasonable counter-position, Nash at the deadline.
However, much prefer immediate move for assets.
Get a 1st this year, decent prospect, and recover an expansion slot so we can protect another F.

Dont have to be a wise ass about it. I got it now.
Clearly cant ask a simple question on this board anymore or the wolves will come out.

Don't let the snarklies get you down.

Blerg.
If we trade Stepan, we really, really better get good value back, and there better be a good contingency plan in there for our center depth that isn't running zib>hayes>lindberg>_____

I find myself very nervous about a potential Stepan trade.

Courage
fortune favors the bold
Plus deep deep DEEP down you know we have to.

What's not to like about a center depth of Zibanejad-Galchenyuk-Hayes-Lindberg?

Gally overrated as a C.

All this posts needs is "AINEC" for it to be main board material

That offer Toby posted is not really fair value. I think there is a good chance Stepan won't be traded.
- He isn't a liability on the ice
- He isn't overpaid
- He isn't old, or broken
- We don't have to shed cap

Gorton is listening to offers. But if the right offer doesn't come along, he won't trade Stepan. Same with Nash. They listened to offers but the right offer just didn't come and they stuck with it.

Stepan is a 1C who plays all 3 zones, puts up 55 points a season and will be UFA when he is 31.

He will in fact be gone, and all your protestations cannot save him.

He isn't a liability on the ice
Most of the time no, vs avg guys, but he is dominated when larger guys exert will.
- He isn't overpaid
At present he is fully paid top $, and an argument can be made he is overpaid, though not by much. Over 4 years remaining term his 6.5 is more affordable, but it is not a bargain, like when he had similar production for less salary.
- He isn't old, or broken
Yeah, but that's not a lot to brag about
- We don't have to shed cap
We do, and more importantly we need cap flexibility going forward to retain young core and strategic adds.

Obviously, he should not be dealt if there were insufficient offers, but even though the lunacy of some thinking he's worth 3OA is being rebuked, competitive bids will assure an adequate offer.

Montreal fans are ****ing idiots and hate the Rangers because they can't wrap their heads around the laws of physics re: Kreider/Price.

I don't care what they have to say. Stepan is worth every penny of his contract. The ******** fallacies being posted endlessly about him are so ****ing annoying. Want to move him because it'll help set us up long term? Fine. Don't act like he's this worthless slug who's going to be an albatross when in reality he's going to be in his prime these next 3 years.

Fair enough, except remember his track record is plateau already reached.
He is what he is.
Nothing more, nothing less.
So you don't want him defamed, fair enough, but let's not insinuate it is reasonable to expect any uptake, esp a meaningful one, in his production.

 

[RangerBoy]

I can't wait to hear the players complain about escrow next season. Keep it flat. Little to no escrow. Full 5%. $77M. They went 2.5%. $75M.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Regarding Gally, I'm not a huge fan since I don't think he'll be a C. That being said, I trust Gorton with the direction he wants to take this team.

 

[offdacrossbar]

Yes but heres the difference: Duchene was legit slower last year and it wasn't an effort thing, hes lost a step. Stepan has yet to show signs of slowing down, hes just slow.

f/o ability is overrated, so that isn't a selling point for me.

Want no part of Duchene. Even if he bounces back a bit (which he probably will) hes going to be crazy expensive in a few years. If the goal is to get younger, Duchene doesn't exactly help with that either.

we beat the sens and play in the final 4 if we had a decent face-off guy in that series.

so. nah.

and i dont discount playing for an awful team like you do. you put duchene on this roster and hes goes off.

stepan on the avs last 5 years is nothing special.

 

[GregSirico]

$75M cap

It should go to 77M, IMHO.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Yeah, Dallas is another team that has a need for winger and Nash makes sense for them. I thought Nash would be definitely moved to make space for Shattenkirk but since it looks like Stepan is going to be traded, not sure they are going to deal him barring some very good offers. I am not sure Rangers would trade Nash at deadline if they are good enough to contend.

If we take on Lehtonen or Niemei (Trade Raanta or use of of the other 2 for LVGK deal), we might be able to get Honka and Faksa or Janmark if we add something small.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

we beat the sens and play in the final 4 if we had a decent face-off guy in that series.

so. nah.

We beat the sens and play in the final 4 if we had a coach who knew how to use his defensemen.

Faceoffs have nothing to do with it.

 

[Irishguy42]

we beat the sens and play in the final 4 if we had a decent face-off guy in that series.

so. nah.

and i dont discount playing for an awful team like you do. you put duchene on this roster and hes goes off.

stepan on the avs last 5 years is nothing special.

Swing and a miss

 

[offdacrossbar]

Swing and a miss

lost how many games in the final minutes bc we cant win a face-off ??

check the tape.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Gally for Brodin makes a ton of sense no?

 

[bernmeister]

What are you talking about? Nieves is a clear 1C...

I said, before Boo became damaged w/concussions that
IF AND ONLY IF
we acquired MacKinnon
AND he was bookended at RW opposite Kreider LW,
AND boo totally deferred to them and learned on the job
AND they happened to have exceptional chemistry
THEN AND IN THAT EVENT
it would be stupid not to take advantage of that and redeploy the other 1C candidates = Miller/Zib
on other lines = more strong depth

it is moot b'c boo is concussed and that will eliminate 1st line minutes under all circumstances, even most optimistic
further moot b'c premise of us getting MacKinnon still not happening.

Glad to see people are keeping things in full context, and showing an open mind.

And we can always get Reinhart and Kane. Get bigger!

We should.
Some people be-atch and moan about how we never can draft top line potential, and when there is a rare opportunity to do so, they prefer to timidly play it safe short term instead of taking prudent risk.
So, you would rather go small, then?

i find it amusing that many here who pimp stepan as a solid 1C also throw shade at hayes and call him a 3C.

brain farts aside, hayes has more natural talent than does derek stepan. he's yet to put it all together but at 6'5 and 225 lbs, kevin hayes is far from the slug he is portrayed as here.

Agree.
Hayes could learn to be a better skater.
But he is progressing nicely, and like you say, size you can't teach.

Nah man. Miller at center and Zibanejad on the wing, obviously

Both variations should be tried, just to see proof of the test.
But logic says, putting faster guy w/lefty shot, who is skilled passer, at pivot
while keeping righty shot Zib at RW,
makes more sense
then flipping them.

But so much for open mindedness.

Duchene is due a huge pay raise in two years. Are we paying him, Mika, and Hayes? People need to consider the long-term financials of these moves. That's why Step locked into his price tag now is such a good deal. 55 points a year, all situations play, and has the best goal metrics on the team year in and year out.

His deal is not spectacular good now.
He earns top $, is not a bargain, and arguably is slightly overpaid
that said, he is more affordable down the road on his fixed rate.

Concur as to long term financials
better to flip Stepan for value, incl cap recovery
re-sign our guys long term, long term = more $ = volume discount reducing annual salary rate.

 

[Irishguy42]

lost how many games in the final minutes bc we cant win a face-off ??

check the tape.

Lost how many games because of bad defensive plays against rushes and due to puck mishandling late in the game?

check the tape.

 

[Griffinbw]

Gally for Brodin makes a ton of sense no?

Still doesn't solve Montreal's center problem.

 

[RangerBoy]

It should go to 77M, IMHO.

You're not losing any money.

 

[Irishguy42]

Gally for Brodin makes a ton of sense no?

And the Habs continue to have no 1C or 2C...

 

[Do you want ants]

lost how many games in the final minutes bc we cant win a face-off ??

check the tape.

Pretty sure at least half of those loses we won the FO and then couldn't get the puck out of the zone. But my memory could be wrong

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Despres is apparently getting bought out by the Ducks. If he's healthy and wants to sign a cheap deal, I'd take a flyer

 

[Griffinbw]

I said, before Boo became damaged w/concussions that
IF AND ONLY IF
we acquired MacKinnon
AND he was bookended at RW opposite Kreider LW,
AND boo totally deferred to them and learned on the job
AND they happened to have exceptional chemistry
THEN AND IN THAT EVENT
it would be stupid not to take advantage of that and redeploy the other 1C candidates = Miller/Zib
on other lines = more strong depth

it is moot b'c boo is concussed and that will eliminate 1st line minutes under all circumstances, even most optimistic
further moot b'c premise of us getting MacKinnon still not happening.

Glad to see people are keeping things in full context, and showing an open mind.

Just poking a bit of fun. I was excited when we first picked him up

 

[Griffinbw]

Despres is apparently getting bought out by the Ducks. If he's healthy and wants to sign a cheap deal, I'd take a flyer

Why the hell are they buying out a 25 year old? Need the protection slot?