Speculation: Roster Building Thread 2019-20 Part XXV

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

There's a few key points you're leaving out though.

Even the people who want both (which isn't necessarily a ton of people), aren't giving Strome or Fast 7 year deals or movement clauses. In both cases, the term is significantly shorter and has the ability to move.

So while I get your point, I do think we have to acknowledge there are some key differences there.

Yeah the term is always the issue with Kreider. I guess I'm working under the assumption that we could get him to sign a 5 year deal or something similar to Max Pac or JVR term wise.

 

[Gardner McKay]

By the way Winnipeg looks like ****

And as recently as a year ago people were asking if we should build more in the mold of Winnipeg

Sakic is a much better GM than Cheveldayoff though. MUCH better. Cheveldayoff is a guy who fell ass backwards into a wealth of assets and did nothing with it. Sakic is a guy who also inherited some great assets but has made his team much better.

Going to be interesting to see how this deadline unfolds.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

8th OA is not a late first. McDonagh didn't return your proposals. Why do we pay the premium when we have no timeframe to win?

This team has zero wing depth. We already have cap issues, so I'm no where near automatic in trading entry level players either. That type of trade is more in line with a TBL win now trade, not a rebuild/window just opening phase.

Also, as you point out, WAAAAAY more than TBL actually paid for McDonagh. So, even if we were at that stage...

Why would be pay this much?

 

[Savant]

Curious where did I say Skjei is better than lindholm?

I said lindholm is not much better than Skjei and he’s not. He’s also 2 3 years older.

somehow you translated that into me saying Skjei is better than lindholm.

If I read it wrong, then I read it wrong, but your point is still incorrect. Skjei and Lindholm are not in the same tier. If you would like to convince me otherwise, you have the floor

 

[Edge]

I already said maybe we get a guy back for Buchy that plays right away. I don’t know why you’re like half responding or half reading my posts before arguing them. But if we do move him it’s going to be for a younger cheaper option. Or it will be for picks like we did with Namestnikov or Vesey. He’s a good player we don’t have to take a bad contract back like we did for spooner. (Got lucky on strome) Obviously trading him to make cap room we wouldn’t otherwise be moving either guy to your point earlier about the cap.

and yes that’s my point. You trade non core guys to make cap room to sign or keep your best most important ones. Not sure why this is crazy to process happens all the time in every sport.

I can tell you that the odds of the Rangers trading Buch in a manner similar to Namestnikov and Vesey are slim to none. I'm just flat out gonna tell you that.

I agree they might move him for a different option, and that option might be cheaper, but it won't be entry level cheap. So I'll even meet you somewhat half-way and say it's a guy who comes in at $2.5 million. That's a savings of $750k. And remember, you've brought in Kapanen in your proposal, who is slightly under Buch's deal. So factoring that into play, you're actually up about $2.4 million in total roster salary with those moves. Because again, I can almost promise you the Rangers are not keen on moving Buch in what amounts to a salary dump.

So that brings up to Strome. Whether one loves the guy, likes the guy, can't stand the guy, or is indifferent to his presence, the Rangers are not moving a 70 point player who clicks with their best player as a salary dump. Even if they move him, which they might have to, you're probably looking at a similar salary coming back to what Strome earned this season. So again, I'll meet you half-way and say Strome is moved and the Rangers don't have to give him his raise. He's still going to bring back a salary, so that's a wash. He's not going to be a Vesey/Namestnikov type move either, so there's not a huge savings there.

I'm not saying this to be a dick, I get the desire to keep Kreider. But I don't see this front office making all these moves, with a primary focus on saving money, to use it in part on re-upping Kreider.

 

[gravey9]

Watched Labanc play last night. I didn't realize just how small he looks out there. It's not that he's super short, he's a bit wirey. He seems a bit more finesse/perimeter than I realized. I don't know that he's a line driver.

If I were the Rangers I would want a different type of top 9 player for Georgie. I would sacrifice top 6 skill for a top 9 guy with a motor and size. It really seems like the best match in a Georgy deal is TML. They have a multitude of young forwards that fit this description. Just unclear if we'll get anything we want out of them.

I'd like to target Robertson from TML with Georgy. I would even add a pick to Georgy if need be. Because Georgy is a hockey trade and not a future's/rental, GMJG needs to target the player(s) he wants as opposed to creating a bidding war for a player and taking the best deal out there. It's not so much, do you trade Georgy, it's can we get X or Y because they fit our plans.

Circling back to Labanc. My issue with his size/style of play is, I don't know that he's a long term fit on the roster. I want us to build a bigger/formidable young squad. I worry that Labanc just becomes the next Namestnikov/Spooner that we'll be flipping for a small return in 1-2 years. On top of that, he's not the guy I want to pay 3-4m a year to given what else we need to fit under cap next season. Ideally, we should be trading for a player whose salary is locked in fro next season. Or a really good futures piece whose ELC may not even count next year. The other issue with Labanc is because he's not even signed for next season, Sharks can't even offer to cover part of next year's salary.

Bottom line though: For Georgy to move I want a young NHL player that we legit see being part of the future or I want a prospect who has real potential to be a top 6 F.

 

[gravey9]

Furthermore, if there's no in season trade for Georgy - then I'd like to target the Red Wings 2nd round draft pick this year. They have 2 2nds right now. If we could target their own pick then it's like getting the 32nd pick in the first round. I think that may end up being the best value we can get assuming there's a player still avail that they're targetting at that spot.

 

[Kovalev27]

I can tell you that the odds of the Rangers trading Buch in a manner similar to Namestnikov and Vesey are slim to none. I'm just flat out gonna tell you that.

I agree they might move him for a different option, and that option might be cheaper, but it won't be entry level cheap. So I'll even meet you somewhat half-way and say it's a guy who comes in at $2.5 million. That's a savings of $750k. And remember, you've brought in Kapanen in your proposal, who is slightly under Buch's deal. So factoring that into play, you're actually up about $2.4 million in total roster salary with those moves. Because again, I can almost promise you the Rangers are not keen on moving Buch in what amounts to a salary dump.

So that brings up to Strome. Whether one loves the guy, likes the guy, can't stand the guy, or is indifferent to his presence, the Rangers are not moving a 70 point player who clicks with their best player as a salary dump. Even if they move him, which they might have to, you're probably looking at a similar salary coming back to what Strome earned this season. So again, I'll meet you half-way and say Strome is moved and the Rangers don't have to give him his raise. He's still going to bring back a salary, so that's a wash. He's not going to be a Vesey/Namestnikov type move either, so there's not a huge savings there.

I'm not saying this to be a dick, I get the desire to keep Kreider. But I don't see this front office making all these moves, with a primary focus on saving money, to use it in part on re-upping Kreider.

correct me if I’m mistaken but weren’t you telling us in June that we were close to moving Buchnevich for a first round pick?

 

[Kovalev27]

If I read it wrong, then I read it wrong, but your point is still incorrect. Skjei and Lindholm are not in the same tier. If you would like to convince me otherwise, you have the floor

Well you are wrong....still.

like why wouldnt you just go back and reread it and say oh sorry I did read it wrong lol. Not IF you read it wrong.

as I said lindholm is better than Skjei but not MUCH BETTER

he’s the top dman on a team with a spectacular goalie and he’s got one goal he’s a minus 10 himself and his team is a minus 30 in goal differential. If he played the way for us the way he’s playing for Anaheim right now after we just traded lundkvist Kravtsov and Skjei to get him this board would burn to the ground.

so yeah he’s better than Skjei but he’s not an elite dman and like I said not much better. Certainly not worth the upgrade that’s for sure

 

[kinger8998]

Here's my deadline thoughts, feel free to agree/disagree:

- Georgiev will ultimately get dealt to either the Sharks or the Leafs. I'm hoping this is at deadline, although it could be in summer. I would expect, and like a package from the Sharks that include Labanc and a conditional pick. From the Leafs, Bracco and their 2nd.

To SJS: Alexandar Georgiev
To NYR" Kevin Labanc, 2021 3rd (becomes 2021 1st if Sharks make it to conference finals with Georgiev starting over 50% Playoff games).
----------------------------------------
To TOR: Alexandar Georgiev
To NYR: Jeremy Bracco, 2020 2nd

- Much more conflicted on Kreider. Rangers will get a 1st in any deal, but I have a different viewpoint from what else comes in the deal. I'd argue the even if a deal as a whole at face value looks slightly worse than another deal, if the team with the slightly worse trade is expected to be out in the Playoffs earlier, I'd take that deal. For example: Say COL offers 1st + Jost while Calgary offers 1st + Bennett. Even if you are lower/higher on Jost/Bennett, I'd argue you take the teams that you expect to be out earliest, especially in a Draft where there is a much larger high end talent pool than usual, leaving players more likely to fall to earlier ousted playoff clubs. Various trades I'd like/expect from contenders:

To COL: Chris Kreider
To NYR: 2020 1st, Tyson Jost
-----------------------------
To PIT: Chris Kreider
To NYR: 2020 1st, Filip Hallander (woudl expect price to be higher for Pens bc division)
-------------------------------
To STL: Chris Kreider
To NYR: 2020 1st, 2020 3rd
--------------------------------
To BOS: Chris Kreider
To NYR: 2020 1st, Danton Heinen (not sure if BOS would do this, but NYR have had reported interest in Heinen)
----------------------------------
To TBL: Chris Kreider
To NYR: 2020 1st, Alex Barre-Boulet
---------------------------------- (Don't think Kreider would allow trade to any Canadian team, so next two are iffy)
To CGY: Chris Kreider
To NYR: 2020 1st, Sam Bennett/Mark Jankowski
---------------------------------------------------
To EDM: Chris Kreider
To NYR: 2020 1st, Jesse Puljujarvi (Not sure if EDM would be courageous enough to bet on themselves like this and trade 2020 1st, bc they aren't in the tier those other teams are, but getting this 1st would be a haul)
-----------------------------------
I think these are fair returns, based on the fact that Taylor Hall didn't get all that much + based on the Kevin Hayes trade. Kreider doesn't carry the name Nash did, so expecting him to yield that return will likely lead to disappointment. Kreiders return I think will be similar to Hayes' because he is a rare power winger, but Hayes was a center which likely levels the playing field.

- Jesper Fast is a guy I would resign at $2.750 MAX for 3-4 years. If not, sell to highest bidder. I'd expect something around a 3rd.

- Don't see DeAngelo getting moved whatsoever (I think he should and will be signed long term), and don't see Strome getting moved at the deadline, but the offseason is an option. If he can be resigned for $4.500 MAX on a 3-5 year term, I'd take it. Anything higher in AAV I'd look at trade options this summer.

- I think Skjei has the most value to us playing and hoping he improves and grows. I think a lot of us on this baord undervalue him, but I won't say having a guy ahead of him to eat minutes with Trouba would help Skjei. We don't have that, and I don't think we'll get it, so hope for Skjei to adapt and maybe grow into that role. He won't fetch a fiar return in a trade, let him work this out in NY.

 

[pld459666]

so basically rangers management's plan is to try to do their job

Cutting edge reporting

 

[True Blue]

I'm not suggesting that Sakic should cave on JG's asking price for Kreider. Maybe there is another option. I am just saying he doesn't have the luxury of time like he did in the Duchene deal and his cheapness could cost him in the long run.

I feel the same way regarding Sweeney in Boston

 

[Mac n Gs]

I still think those that are so quick to pull the trigger on a Buchnevich deal are seriously going to regret it in a year or two. We've seen this kid take massive steps in his development, and finally as the process is there for him, he's hit with the worst shooting% season of his career. It's not like he's loafing around out there and getting torched defensively. He's been actively engaged in all 3 zones and is consistently generating some really high-quality chances for us. The kid just needs some bounces to go his way to get back on track to where he was at the beginning of the season.

It's not too long ago that everyone was ready to burn Kreider at the stake for a shitty start while praising Buch for playing at a 70-80 point pace.

 

[pld459666]

Galchenyuk is crap as a player.

If Sid or Malkin cant get him going, Panarin will not get him going either

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Watched Labanc play last night. I didn't realize just how small he looks out there. It's not that he's super short, he's a bit wirey. He seems a bit more finesse/perimeter than I realized. I don't know that he's a line driver.

If I were the Rangers I would want a different type of top 9 player for Georgie. I would sacrifice top 6 skill for a top 9 guy with a motor and size. It really seems like the best match in a Georgy deal is TML. They have a multitude of young forwards that fit this description. Just unclear if we'll get anything we want out of them.

I'd like to target Robertson from TML with Georgy. I would even add a pick to Georgy if need be. Because Georgy is a hockey trade and not a future's/rental, GMJG needs to target the player(s) he wants as opposed to creating a bidding war for a player and taking the best deal out there. It's not so much, do you trade Georgy, it's can we get X or Y because they fit our plans.

Circling back to Labanc. My issue with his size/style of play is, I don't know that he's a long term fit on the roster. I want us to build a bigger/formidable young squad. I worry that Labanc just becomes the next Namestnikov/Spooner that we'll be flipping for a small return in 1-2 years. On top of that, he's not the guy I want to pay 3-4m a year to given what else we need to fit under cap next season. Ideally, we should be trading for a player whose salary is locked in fro next season. Or a really good futures piece whose ELC may not even count next year. The other issue with Labanc is because he's not even signed for next season, Sharks can't even offer to cover part of next year's salary.

Bottom line though: For Georgy to move I want a young NHL player that we legit see being part of the future or I want a prospect who has real potential to be a top 6 F.

Isn't he like 5'9"? Not debating the value of either player as a return, but if you think Labanc is too small...

I still like Kapanen as a target from TML.

 

[Fireonk]

correct me if I’m mistaken but weren’t you telling us in June that we were close to moving Buchnevich for a first round pick?

Obviously needs/wants change. Collectively I am sure the Rangers were hoping for more from Kakko, Kravtsov, and Andersson (I know, an understatement.) In addition we still had Namestikov on the roster. But, even on top of that, this was before they signed Panarin wasn't it? So now that we have sped up the rebuild, we are more interested in players vs picks.

 

[True Blue]

correct me if I’m mistaken but weren’t you telling us in June that we were close to moving Buchnevich for a first round pick?

Things that were going down at last year's draft are different than things that are going down at this year's TDL

 

[wafflepadsave]

Quote from former NHL scout today...”Sakic is so cheap he probably still has his first communion money”

Yeah, I would block his phone number, if I was gorton.

 

[Kovalev27]

Things that were going down at last year's draft are different than things that are going down at this year's TDL

I’m referring to Edge saying we for sure won’t trade Buchnevich for picks or prospects. That we’d have to take money back.

If we were apparently willing or able to do so 7 or 8 months ago, not sure why we COULDNT or WOULDNT do it now if we wanted the cap space.

 

[Deleted member 23124]

Galchenyuk is crap as a player.

If Sid or Malkin cant get him going, Panarin will not get him going either

I have a problem with ANY player that needs another player to "get him going."

 

[Edge]

correct me if I’m mistaken but weren’t you telling us in June that we were close to moving Buchnevich for a first round pick?

Yes, and I've also stated in the last two months that window has probably closed.

There are a number of reasons behind this, including the fact that they were targeting a very specific player they felt could jump into the NHL in 2020, the addition of Panarin, etc.

Fast forward 7 months and the landscape has changed somewhat. There doesn't appear to be the same focus on a specific player or two, nor a desire to push back and see if they can find someone who steps in 2021. The scenario they were eyeing included the belief that help some help/depth could arrive this fall, not next fall.

What tends to be the belief now is that we could be looking at moves for exactly what you described --- a different kind of third line player, maybe a LD, maybe a pair of players who fill out the roster with less skill, but more ideally fit their respective roles (a poor man's Amonte for Matteau/Noonan type approach), things of that nature.

Now I can meet you half-way and say, sure they trade Buch for a first round pick or a prospect --- something along those lines. I really don't think they will, but I'll go with that approach for the sake of conversation.

They won't then make a similar trade involving Strome.

Flaws and all, the Rangers are not shipping out two players with a combined 110-120 points, for nothing but futures. One, if not both guys, would be viewed as needing to bring back NHL level talent. And that means NHL level salaries.

So while we may re-allocate how we're spending money, I don't think there's going to be a ton of it coming off the books. At the very least, probably not enough to give Kreider a $3 million raise, ADA a raise of anywhere from $4 m to $5 m, take on Kapanen's $3.2 million dollar salary, and explore trade and free agent markets.

Kreider, ADA and Kapanen will come with a total price tag of $15-$17 million next season, of which about $11 million will be new money that isn't on the books right. Even if we shed Strome, Buch and Fast, were talking about freeing up about $8 million? Scratch Staal and Smith, $10-$11 million? Maybe? And that assumes we add nothing in salary, and do nothing with any free agents or trades.

That's a pretty tall ask.

 

[Fireonk]

I’m referring to Edge saying we for sure won’t trade Buchnevich for picks or prospects. That we’d have to take money back.

If we were apparently willing or able to do so 7 or 8 months ago, not sure why we COULDNT or WOULDNT do it now if we wanted the cap space.

Unless I am not following your discussion correctly he said they wouldn't trade Buch AND Strome without getting an NHL player back. Which combined with the points I brought up in my last point makes it seem pretty reasonable why they might have shifted priorities in what they get back.

 

[ETTER DE]

This is a serious misinterpretation of the facts. Fast has never been a big point producer. He signed his contract in 2017. He was coming off a 21 points season, with a career high of 30 the year before that, mostly built on the time he spent on the top line. His career high in goals was 10 and he had 2 RFA years left.

Vesey signed in 2018, coming off seasons in which he scored 16 and 17 goals. He had 27 and 28 points in those 2 years. Vesey got slightly more because he was more of a goalscorer, and had more upside. Also, the cap went up, so salaries go up.

Namestnikov signed in 2018 and was coming off a year in which he scored 48 points, including 44 (20 goals) in 62 games with Tampa. There really was no comparison to Fast.

Coaches and management love Fast. You can see it by how much they trust him. You can't judge it by the money because Fast has never had the leverage to get more. Teams don't give players more money just because they like them. They are going to pay them the least amount they can, regardless.

Exactly. and thats why there is no "loyalty" from the players. They will take the best offer when they are UFAS. One team at least will pay him close to 3,0 mill. and he will be gone. Nashville offered Jarnkrok 6 x 2 mill after being an RFA for one year, Coming of an 18 point season. He took it. They invested in him. He has 27 points in 48 games this year. Jimmy Vesey has 14 in 45 matches.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I'm still baffled by the "The Rangers have 3 goalies and therefore no leverage and have to move Georgiev for scraps" argument. Flies in the face of logic

 

[Kovalev27]

Unless I am not following your discussion correctly he said they wouldn't trade Buch AND Strome without getting an NHL player back. Which combined with the points I brought up in my last point makes it seem pretty reasonable why they might have shifted priorities in what they get back.

my original post said we could get players back along with futures but they’d be on ELCs. If we were to trade them it’s because we want cap space to sign others. Not because they aren’t good players.