Speculation: Roster Building Thread 2019-20 Part XXV

[Edge]

Yeah, I agree.

I see people saying to trade Kreider but re-sign Strome and Fast but their cap hits together would likely equal or possibly surpass what Kreider gets and I'd rather have Kreider than both of them.

There's a few key points you're leaving out though.

Even the people who want both (which isn't necessarily a ton of people), aren't giving Strome or Fast 7 year deals or movement clauses. In both cases, the term is significantly shorter and has the ability to move.

So while I get your point, I do think we have to acknowledge there are some key differences there.

 

[Leetch3]

And there we are, I am not comfortable committing that type of money with all the holes we still have. I do not want to give Kreider 7x7.

I've never been comfortable giving him 7x7 or 7x6. I won't be comfortable giving him that contract a month from now. And at least 60-70 percent of this board feels that way. The number might even be higher because some of the re-sign Kreider crowd wasn't even comfortable with 7x6 or 7x7 price point.

I'm not sure the Rangers have ever been comfortable with that concept, which is why we're here.

So I get all that, but it just ain't that popular of a stance.

all indication is that JG has no interest in giving him that $$ cause there have reportedly been no negotiations...he isn't even trying to get him on a 'lesser' deal.

 

[Thirty One]

Do you think that 00', 01' or 02' were better than 04'?? I would definitely say that 04' is better than 00-02, while of course 03' is one of the better 1st rounds the last decades. I randomly picked 15 and 20 years ago.

I think I like 2004 the second least out of the group, yes.

 

[DutchShamrock]

a 26 y/o Lindholm with 2 more years at a decent price for either the 8th overall+filler or Kravtsov+Lundkvist is a turbo fistpump snapcall

only in this place is a top pairing D with term barely worth a late 1st.

8th OA is not a late first. McDonagh didn't return your proposals. Why do we pay the premium when we have no timeframe to win?

This team has zero wing depth. We already have cap issues, so I'm no where near automatic in trading entry level players either. That type of trade is more in line with a TBL win now trade, not a rebuild/window just opening phase.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Not to mention the personality of said GM. In the COL trade, which actually FEELS like the more reasonable of the 3... I wouldn’t even think twice about Sakic saying no. I’d FULLY expect that.

Sakic would say no to Kreider for a 3rd round pick.

Here is the problem for Joe. Whether he wants to realize it or not, the next 2 years will be his best shot at winning a cup. Makar is on an entry level contract. MacKinnon is playing like an MVP. Landeskog is a up for a new contract after next season, Kadri the season after and Mackinnon the season after that. Right now you are getting some great value out of these players. You can afford to load up and swing big. You have the talent.

There is a saying - people who are cheap end up spending double the amount. You do it the cheap way then you have to pay up anyway to have it done the right way. I'm not suggesting that Sakic should cave on JG's asking price for Kreider. Maybe there is another option. I am just saying he doesn't have the luxury of time like he did in the Duchene deal and his cheapness could cost him in the long run.

 

[Kovalev27]

Kreider Zibanejad Kakko
Panarin Chytil Kapanen
Lemieux Howden Kravtsov

I’m more than comfortable with that top 9 next year. While the kids take the next step. Granted This assumes we get a forward for Georgiev like kapanen.

Along with Smith I could care less about the 4th line we’ll prob get another cheap guy like McKegg or Nieves maybe Gettinger breaks thru but those $$$ figures are negligible maybe I get a guy ready to contribute there for Buchnevich.

on D

Skjei Trouba
Hajek/Rykov DeAngelo
Lindgren Fox

Both HAJek and Rykov make the roster here. Not losing Rykov to Russia

shesterkin
hank

 

[Edge]

all indication is that JG has no interest in giving him that $$ cause there have reportedly been no negotiations...he isn't even trying to get him on a 'lesser' deal.

To this point, I would agree with you.

His actions don't indicate an interest in that, and frankly I haven't heard anything for close to a year now that makes me question any of the Rangers approach to this point. I think as we get closer, and reality sets in, it's causing discomfort. But none of this is news, or a departure from what we've suspected for a long time at this point.

And truth be told, I think there are lot of GMs who would have a significant hesitation to go 7x7 if their roster resembled the Rangers roster at this point in time. I think the market for him this offseason is going to be teams that are a few years ahead of where the Rangers are now, and/or don't have a Panarin in place or an ADA like contract coming up.

 

[Edge]

Kreider Zibanejad Kakko
Panarin Chytil Kapanen
Lemieux Howden Kravtsov

I’m more than comfortable with that top 9 next year. While the kids take the next step. Granted This assumes we get a forward for Georgiev like kapanen.

Along with Smith I could care less about the 4th line we’ll prob get another cheap guy like McKegg or Nieves maybe Gettinger breaks thru but those $$$ figures are negligible maybe I get a guy ready to contribute there for Buchnevich.

on D

Skjei Trouba
Hajek/Rykov DeAngelo
Lindgren Fox

Both HAJek and Rykov make the roster here. Not losing Rykov to Russia

shesterkin
hank

Wait, you're whole argument with me last week was that we couldn't use hypotheticals or make assumptions, and now we have Kapanen acquired via trade?

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

@Edge what do you think a package deal of Georgiev and Lias would bring back if they traded them at the deadline/summer?

 

[Kovalev27]

We’ve also heard from pundits like Friedman and Brooks that the Rangers haven’t even made Kreider available. So that goes to my point earlier. No one knows what Gorton is up to right now.

 

[Kovalev27]

Wait, you're whole argument with me last week was that we couldn't use hypotheticals or make assumptions, and now we have Kapanen acquired via trade?

Um huh? We make sssumptions all day long here what are you talking about? I said assuming we get a young forward for Georgiev as that’s what Gorton wants. We’re obviously not moving all these guys out and not getting something back

 

[Edge]

@Edge what do you think a package deal of Georgiev and Lias would bring back if they traded them at the deadline/summer?

It's hard to say because no one has really given me a clear picture of what Andersson's value might be. I've talked to people outside the Rangers who like him as a third liner, and people who think he's only a fourth liner.

 

[RangerBoy]

Any number of combinations is possible, some are just less likely than others.

For example, Strome and Georgiev could have a market in the offseason, but Kreider and Georgiev probably aren't a pairing because most teams interested in Kreider will be viewing him as a final piece. And most teams looking at final pieces aren't typically looking for a backup goalie, or a guy who could start for them in a few years.

The Rangers should not trade Georgiev unless they get their return. Go with three goalies next season. 31 games each for the Russians. 20 games for Lundqvist. Larry Brooks wrote the Rangers had to trade Georgiev by the trading deadline because Gorton doesn't want to be sitting at the draft with his best offer being late 2nd's and/or 3rd's. The Rangers should not trade him. Lundqvist will be 38 in March. Three goaltenders again for only one more season. Lundqvist has started 23 games this season. The Rangers have 34 games remaining this season. How many more starts in Lundqvist getting this season? If all three goaltenders on the roster on 2/25, how many starts is Lundqvist getting? He doesn't want to leave and the Rangers don't want to sell Georgiev for 50 cents on the dollar. The only solution is everyone stays for next season.

31-Georgiev
31-Shesterkin
20-Lundqvist. 4/5 games against Carolina.

 

[motopanekeku]

This is a rare case when someone thinks I was being sarcastic and I wasn’t. I assumed that based on what they might get for him and how much they like having him around that letting it play out past the deadline would be an option.

Got you. I thought the same thing but the tone coming from the front office seems to be a little hardline when it comes to maximizing returns. They see players as in or out. Can't work out a decent contract extension? Out you go...

 

[Tawnos]

Sakic would say no to Kreider for a 3rd round pick.

Here is the problem for Joe. Whether he wants to realize it or not, the next 2 years will be his best shot at winning a cup. Makar is on an entry level contract. MacKinnon is playing like an MVP. Landeskog is a up for a new contract after next season, Kadri the season after and Mackinnon the season after that. Right now you are getting some great value out of these players. You can afford to load up and swing big. You have the talent.

There is a saying - people who are cheap end up spending double the amount. You do it the cheap way then you have to pay up anyway to have it done the right way. I'm not suggesting that Sakic should cave on JG's asking price for Kreider. Maybe there is another option. I am just saying he doesn't have the luxury of time like he did in the Duchene deal and his cheapness could cost him in the long run.

People said for years and years that Chevaldayoff will *never* trade a 1st round pick. As soon as he felt he was in a position where a rental could possibly help the team, he traded a 1st two years in a row. How GMs operate shifts with the state of the team. I wouldn't be so sure we know what Sakic is going to do. To your point, even though they made the playoffs both of the last two seasons, this is realy the first non-building year that Sakic is facing. What he's done in the past doesn't really tell us a lot about what he'll do in the present.

 

[Edge]

Um huh? We make sssumptions all day long here what are you talking about? I said assuming we get a young forward for Georgiev as that’s what Gorton wants

Okay and to that point, Kapenen is bringing in $3.2 million. So while we're talking about shedding salary, like Buch's, we just replaced in that deal alone.

Which is part of the challenge in the first place. As we move salaries out, other salaries are coming back.

 

[Kovalev27]

By the way Winnipeg looks like shit

 

[Edge]

The Rangers should not trade Georgiev unless they get their return. Go with three goalies next season. 31 games each for the Russians. 20 games for Lundqvist. Larry Brooks wrote the Rangers had to trade Georgiev by the trading deadline because Gorton doesn't want to be sitting at the draft with his best offer being late 2nd's and/or 3rd's. The Rangers should not trade him. Lundqvist will be 38 in March. Three goaltenders again for only one more season. Lundqvist has started 23 games this season. The Rangers have 34 games remaining this season. How many more starts in Lundqvist getting this season? If all three goaltenders on the roster on 2/25, how many starts is Lundqvist getting? He doesn't want to leave and the Rangers don't want to sell Georgiev for 50 cents on the dollar. The only solution is everyone stays for next season.

31-Georgiev
31-Shesterkin
20-Lundqvist. 4/5 games against Carolina.

I can already tell you that the Rangers will not go with a three goalie rotation for an entire season.

It's just not going to happen.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

You can't go into next season doing the 3 goalie thing. If they don't get an offer they like at the deadline, and Henrik is still here by the summer, you have to move Georgiev before next season starts.

I think his ceiling is a good 1B but he's not someone I'd do whatever it takes to keep. Especially when you consider the Rangers find goaltending from nothing. Georgiev was a euro free agent.

That's the game you play with stuff like this. Gorton is asking a lot, as he should. But it could blow up in his face where he's accepting some mid round picks in the summer.

But going into the next season with 3 goalies cannot happen

 

[Kovalev27]

Okay and to that point, Kapenen is bringing in $3.2 million. So while we're talking about shedding salary, like Buch's we just replaced in that deal alone.

Which is part of the challenge in the first place. As we move salaries out, other salaries are coming back.

Kreider 7 mil Tony d 5 mil kapanen 3.5 mil 15.5 mil

Staal cap savings 2.5 mil fast 3 mil Buchy 3.5 mil Strome 5 mil (at least) 14 mil

we added 1.5 mil in that trade off and are a much better team for it. It’s negligible. The cap increase alone covers more than that.

 

[Tawnos]

By the way Winnipeg looks like ****

Chevaldayoff made a major error letting Myers walk after being forced into trading Trouba, though the Byfuglien situation was unforeseeable.

 

[Kovalev27]

Chevaldayoff made a major error letting Myers walk after being forced into trading Trouba, though the Byfuglien situation was unforeseeable.

yeah I don’t understand how he figured he had to trade Trouba but should let Myers walk to. How did he not know what buff was doing? Or did he. Just an awful job there.

 

[Gardner McKay]

People said for years and years that Chevaldayoff will *never* trade a 1st round pick. As soon as he felt he was in a position where a rental could possibly help the team, he traded a 1st two years in a row. How GMs operate shifts with the state of the team. I wouldn't be so sure we know what Sakic is going to do. To your point, even though they made the playoffs both of the last two seasons, this is realy the first non-building year that Sakic is facing. What he's done in the past doesn't really tell us a lot about what he'll do in the present.

Great point.

I think the Avs are in a great position. They are just ridiculously loaded with talent, cap space and assets to make deals. They are the only team that I think has a realistic chance of knocking off the Blues and if Sakic sees it the same way, he should do what he can within reason to improve the team.

 

[Edge]

Kreider 7 mil Tony d 5 mil kapanen 3.5 mil 15.5 mil

Staal cap savings 2.5 mil fast 3 mil Buchy 3.5 mil Strome 5 mil (at least) 14 mil

we added 1.5 mil in that trade off and are a much better team for it. It’s negligible. The cap increase alone covers more than that.

And again, the Rangers are not trading Buch and Strome without getting at least one NHL player back.

So the notion that they are just going to ship off guys who are under contract or control for prospects/picks/low salary options is not a likely path forward. Those deals are going to bring back NHL salary/salaries.

You think the Rangers are going to trade Strome and Buch for prospects/picks so that they have the room to resign a group of players that includes Kreider, and then still go out and make additional moves?

Because even if they did, which they won't, they're still looking for an NHL level LD (salary), and they're still looking to potentially bring some help in for the bottom six. In other words, they aren't looking for entry level contracts to fill every role. They are looking at one, maybe two NHL contracts coming in.

 

[Kovalev27]

And again, the Rangers are not trading Buch and Strome without getting at least one NHL player back.

So the notion that they are just going to ship off guys who are under contract or control for prospects/picks/low salary options is not a likely path forward. Those deals are going to bring back NHL salary/salaries.

You think the Rangers are going to trade Strome and Buch for prospects/picks so that they have the room to resign a group of players that includes Kreider, and then still go out and make additional moves?

Because even if they did, which they won't, they're still looking for an NHL level LD (salary), and they're still looking to potentially bring some help in for the bottom six. In other words, they aren't looking for entry level contracts to fill every role. They are looking at one, maybe two NHL contracts coming in.

I already said maybe we get a guy back for Buchy that plays right away. I don’t know why you’re like half responding or half reading my posts before arguing them. But if we do move him it’s going to be for a younger cheaper option. Or it will be for picks like we did with Namestnikov or Vesey. He’s a good player we don’t have to take a bad contract back like we did for spooner. (Got lucky on strome) Obviously trading him to make cap room we wouldn’t otherwise be moving either guy to your point earlier about the cap.

and yes that’s my point. You trade non core guys to make cap room to sign or keep your best most important ones. Not sure why this is crazy to process happens all the time in every sport.