Speculation: Raymond Seider Contract Speculation

[Frobbo]

KInd of wondering if these "difficult" negotiations will create an impression on the RW pipeline player's future negoatiations. If it is hard to get market value in Detroit will they be more inclined to seek OS's when they are RFA's? I feel the same issue at hand in Dallas where the Otter and Robo bridge deals were more contentious than the norm. Will that be an issue down the line with the players possibly having more options as RFA's due to offer sheets? Wondering...

 

[norrisnick]

KInd of wondering if these "difficult" negotiations will create an impression on the RW pipeline player's future negoatiations. If it is hard to get market value in Detroit will they be more inclined to seek OS's when they are RFA's? I feel the same issue at hand in Dallas where the Otter and Robo bridge deals were more contentious than the norm. Will that be an issue down the line with the players possibly having more options as RFA's due to offer sheets? Wondering...

I mean, offer sheets just make the process easy. There has to be a massive disparity in perceived value between player and team in order for someone to swoop in with a deal that won't get instantly matched. Fedorov was signed because the Wings were trying to grossly undervalue him around $4M/yr I believe. Even the deal he ended up signing was crazy on the upfront ($28M in 1998) but as a whole, he was underpaid (hair over $6M/yr) for what he was and what others in the league were making at the time.

I don't see there being anything close to like a $2-3M/yr difference between ask and offer. It's probably $1M or so like with Larkin.

 

[lilidk]

Mega trade is coming

 

[Redwing66]

Fans have an impact through arena attendance and TV ratings (team revenue), but what Oddbob was saying is that the numbers posted here have no impact. You could say DBoss is worth $4M, and I could say he's worth $10M, but in the end Stevie isn't reading any posts here.

Generally speaking, most companies have someone (marketing, sale, and/or media relations) that cruises around reading social media, but the online presence of HFBoards is so small (especially for the Wings), that anything posted here isn't gonna reach the front office.

When I worked for the Big 3, I never read online forums for the vehicle platforms that I worked on. The internet experts who think they can fix design issues have no clue what they're talking about. Same applies to hockey, myself included.

Was actually playing off his name "Odd Bob" -light humor. We are on a fan forum to discuss the team, concerns, players, directions, trends. Not trying to fix anything, if you all are happy with the length of time needed to sign a damn contract due to your insights so be it. Seems to be a trend that might affect attitudes and future talent that might consider wearing a winged wheel.

 

[13to40]

Mega trade is coming

EA SPORTS. ITS IN THE GAME


But in all seriousness, I can see both players getting an 8 year extension with a team friendly AAV.

Wouldn’t at all be surprised if Yzerman is trying to set these contracts up to the teams advantage moving forward with future negotiations with the other younger prospects coming up the pipeline. Seider will have the highest AAV on the team for defenders and Raymond will be the highest AAV for forwards. Not a nickel more for anyone else on a future deal.

Otherwise the team gets shafted on taking a bridge deal and then these guys get mega contracts next negotiation period.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

KInd of wondering if these "difficult" negotiations will create an impression on the RW pipeline player's future negoatiations. If it is hard to get market value in Detroit will they be more inclined to seek OS's when they are RFA's? I feel the same issue at hand in Dallas where the Otter and Robo bridge deals were more contentious than the norm. Will that be an issue down the line with the players possibly having more options as RFA's due to offer sheets? Wondering...

What. Y'all guys need to get a hobby with all this handwringing you're doing.

1) Players don't usually seek offer sheets. The team offering them does.
2) Dallas also isn't going to have a problem.

RFA contract negotiations appear difficult on the outside as they're the one set of contracts that the teams actually have some leverage on the player when it comes to cost. The RFA deals are more a game of chicken than an actual contentious, anger inducing thing. Teams have a good idea what comparables are making. So do agents. So they play a staring contest over the last 500k-1M.

As long as you're not woefully trying to underpay as the team or you're not being f***in real dumb as a player asking for something not supported by comps... it's arguing for show pretty much.

Raymond and Seider are gonna sign before camp, they're gonna be thrilled to be in Detroit long term and all you people whining about how strained the relationship must be are gonna get real damn quitet.

 

[Oddbob]

Fans have no affect - that's an odd thing to say...

Salary wise they have ZERO affect.

 

[Henkka]

Only thing I see as a possible "reason" for any delay, is that Yzerman is still negotiating for a trade.

And if he will add some bigger caphit on the team, he has to cut term from Seider/Raymond.

For long-term deals, the cap space is there. Those would be easy to do.

But Stevie could be waiting for some opportunity to happen. Like these Edmonton offer-sheets now happened out of nowhere, and are pushing some action for the trade market.

 

[Frobbo]

What. Y'all guys need to get a hobby with all this handwringing you're doing.

1) Players don't usually seek offer sheets. The team offering them does.
2) Dallas also isn't going to have a problem.

RFA contract negotiations appear difficult on the outside as they're the one set of contracts that the teams actually have some leverage on the player when it comes to cost. The RFA deals are more a game of chicken than an actual contentious, anger inducing thing. Teams have a good idea what comparables are making. So do agents. So they play a staring contest over the last 500k-1M.

As long as you're not woefully trying to underpay as the team or you're not being f***in real dumb as a player asking for something not supported by comps... it's arguing for show pretty much.

Raymond and Seider are gonna sign before camp, they're gonna be thrilled to be in Detroit long term and all you people whining about how strained the relationship must be are gonna get real damn quitet.

I don't disagree with your take on Seider and Raymond, they don't fall in the catagory where an offer sheet would be a great idea. The question I have is if OS's become more commonplace (a big if) then teams like the RWs (and many others) who might have several prospects who play well on their elc's but don't flash could be vulnerable to losing them to OS's that inflate their value. Inflate to the point that they don't fit the cap structure of the original team. It is a musing, not something I am losing sleep over.

For instance, when the TBL time out of Kuch, Point and Hedman and now have cap room in 3-4 years, signing RFA's from other teams (at inflated prices relative to their production) could jumpstart their rebuild. It would be a way to skip a step or two in a rebuild AND hurt a competing team. I am just wondering if this becomes a new normal in the league, that's all.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

I don't disagree with your take on Seider and Raymond, they don't fall in the catagory where an offer sheet would be a great idea. The question I have is if OS's become more commonplace (a big if) then teams like the RWs (and many others) who might have several prospects who play well on their elc's but don't flash could be vulnerable to losing them to OS's that inflate their value. Inflate to the point that they don't fit the cap structure of the original team. It is a musing, not something I am losing sleep over.

For instance, when the TBL time out of Kuch, Point and Hedman and now have cap room in 3-4 years, signing RFA's from other teams (at inflated prices relative to their production) could jumpstart their rebuild. It would be a way to skip a step or two in a rebuild AND hurt a competing team. I am just wondering if this becomes a new normal in the league, that's all.

There is still evidence that it won't be. St. Louis going after Broberg and Holloway is solely because Edmonton is literally strapped to the cap with McDavid coming up soon and Draisaitl coming up now... and those guys are wildly overpaid on these StL OSes. Basically, there is no way that you will prevent a team doing that. It's like what Vancouver tried to do with Val Filppula back when he was an RFA.

Offersheets will become more commonplace if more changes occur in the CBA. As it sits, they're generally still a really bad idea to offer. I'm not ever gonna be shook up if someone tries like spiriting away a William Wallinder for 3M when Detroit wants to pay him 1M. Teams don't usually hammer OSes because the nature of the league is that you can turn around quite quickly and snipe their guys as retaliation.

Even as a musing... it's just, as you say, a huge if and nothing to worry about. Offer sheets still have a bad rap and generally speaking unless you're offering something ridiculous (like giving Broberg 4.5M when Edmonton was probably gonna try to sneak him through at 1.5M), it'll just be matched.

 

[Euro Twins]

There is still evidence that it won't be. St. Louis going after Broberg and Holloway is solely because Edmonton is literally strapped to the cap with McDavid coming up soon and Draisaitl coming up now... and those guys are wildly overpaid on these StL OSes. Basically, there is no way that you will prevent a team doing that. It's like what Vancouver tried to do with Val Filppula back when he was an RFA.

Offersheets will become more commonplace if more changes occur in the CBA. As it sits, they're generally still a really bad idea to offer. I'm not ever gonna be shook up if someone tries like spiriting away a William Wallinder for 3M when Detroit wants to pay him 1M. Teams don't usually hammer OSes because the nature of the league is that you can turn around quite quickly and snipe their guys as retaliation.

Even as a musing... it's just, as you say, a huge if and nothing to worry about. Offer sheets still have a bad rap and generally speaking unless you're offering something ridiculous (like giving Broberg 4.5M when Edmonton was probably gonna try to sneak him through at 1.5M), it'll just be matched.

Ya if it was becoming a commonplace thing one of seider, rayzor, or swayman would have got a big one already

Just a crappy team overpaying for a future depth player.

Just like Carolina did with kotkaniemi

 

[Perfect Human]

Please sign contracts already!!!!

 

[KJoe88]

I’m f***ing bored

Come onnnn

Sorry I’m stoned asf watching Raymond highlights

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

There's literally still another 3-4 weeks before this matters lol. People need to log off and take a chill pill.

 

[ricky0034]

There's literally still another 3-4 weeks before this matters lol. People need to log off and take a chill pill.

there's a non zero chance that these guys are just relaxing on a beach somewhere or something as people freak out and haven't even bothered to really even get in touch with their agents about this yet

which is a thought that I find just hilarious

 

[Konnan511]

I have worried about these contracts for exactly zero seconds this summer. They'll get done in time. There is literally no need to rush.

Except when you see comparable or worse players getting paid big time. That's why getting them signed earlier is advantageous, because you would set the bar, not another team/player.

The Detroit Lions did it with Sewell, St. Brown, and Goff and forced other teams to overpay their key players. No Yzerman will be forced to over pay instead of setting the bar.

That is why, I suspect, many people are annoyed with the signings taking to long.

We know they are getting signed, anyone worried they won't be signed are just being delusional. It's the terms and cap hit that have some people worried.

 

[GreatGordie9]

I haven't heard anything if Seider and Raymond have come to Detroit prior to camp in September.

 

[FlyguyOX]

Except when you see comparable or worse players getting paid big time. That's why getting them signed earlier is advantageous, because you would set the bar, not another team/player.

The Detroit Lions did it with Sewell, St. Brown, and Goff and forced other teams to overpay their key players. No Yzerman will be forced to over pay instead of setting the bar.

That is why, I suspect, many people are annoyed with the signings taking to long.

We know they are getting signed, anyone worried they won't be signed are just being delusional. It's the terms and cap hit that have some people worried.

Honestly should have signed them last summer.

If the thought is that you need to make sure Raymond and/or Seider was the real deal, then worst case they were not and your rebuild was screwed regardless of what you paid them. Best case was you just got bargain long terms deals on the two.

Now at the mercy of worse players getting high cap hits, pushing Detroits guys numbers even higher.

 

[raymond23]

Let us be a little thankful that we have two u23 players valued at close to 9 million AAV each

 

[OldnotDeadWings]

There's literally still another 3-4 weeks before this matters lol. People need to log off and take a chill pill.

More like 5-6 weeks. Plenty of key young players have been signed to post-ELC deals very late in the off-season, with no negative repercussions for themselves or their team. Jets signed RFA Connor to a seven-year deal on Sept. 28, 2019; Canucks signed RFA Pettersson to a three-year bridge deal on Oct. 1, 2021. Was either deal, even with the benefit of hindsight, an over-payment because the bar had been set higher by contracts signed earlier in those off-seasons? No. Was locking up Connor early more advantageous to the Jetts than the Canucks signing Pettersson to a bridge deal? No. The Canucks have Pettersson under contract for 14 years, until 33yo, and it took only one long-term deal to get there. Jets will have to sign Connor to a second longish-term deal, or very likely have to trade him to prevent losing him for nothing as a 29yo FA. Fans get sucked into thinking it's always better to lock up good young players ASAP, but they forget it's going to take at least three contracts to keep them as long as they would like. The younger a player is when locked up initially, the more it's going to cost the team on that third contract if they are still playing at a high level.

Negotiation parameters are set early in the process, they don't change to accommodate another team's overpayment or because a player unwisely agreed to a low-ball offer. The market is set by multiple previous examples, not outliers. Fans freak out, worrying about things they don't fully understand. Players meanwhile just wait it out with golf, family, training, whatever. They leave all of it to their agents, at least until it's finally time to crap or get off the pot. They have a good idea what they'll get, either long-term or bridge, and know they'll get their money one way or another. They don't care how long it takes so long as business doesn't veer into personal territory. In the meantime they're not hurting -- in their early 20s with enough socked away to cover all the greens fees and beach resort holidays they want. The only real benefit to a deal signed early in the process, especially if it's long-term, is it's just one less thing to have to answer stupid questions about for X number of years.

 

[saska sault]

We got Laine to Montreal before we got Ray and Mo back to Detroit ...

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

This is pure speculation, but what if whatever happened with the Walman in the locker room and his trade left a bad taste in Mo and Raymond’s mouth and that’s causing some hesitation and the delay?

 

[Ezekial]

More like 5-6 weeks. Plenty of key young players have been signed to post-ELC deals very late in the off-season, with no negative repercussions for themselves or their team. Jets signed RFA Connor to a seven-year deal on Sept. 28, 2019; Canucks signed RFA Pettersson to a three-year bridge deal on Oct. 1, 2021. Was either deal, even with the benefit of hindsight, an over-payment because the bar had been set higher by contracts signed earlier in those off-seasons? No. Was locking up Connor early more advantageous to the Jetts than the Canucks signing Pettersson to a bridge deal? No. The Canucks have Pettersson under contract for 14 years, until 33yo, and it took only one long-term deal to get there. Jets will have to sign Connor to a second longish-term deal, or very likely have to trade him to prevent losing him for nothing as a 29yo FA. Fans get sucked into thinking it's always better to lock up good young players ASAP, but they forget it's going to take at least three contracts to keep them as long as they would like. The younger a player is when locked up initially, the more it's going to cost the team on that third contract if they are still playing at a high level.

Negotiation parameters are set early in the process, they don't change to accommodate another team's overpayment or because a player unwisely agreed to a low-ball offer. The market is set by multiple previous examples, not outliers. Fans freak out, worrying about things they don't fully understand. Players meanwhile just wait it out with golf, family, training, whatever. They leave all of it to their agents, at least until it's finally time to crap or get off the pot. They have a good idea what they'll get, either long-term or bridge, and know they'll get their money one way or another. They don't care how long it takes so long as business doesn't veer into personal territory. In the meantime they're not hurting -- in their early 20s with enough socked away to cover all the greens fees and beach resort holidays they want. The only real benefit to a deal signed early in the process, especially if it's long-term, is it's just one less thing to have to answer stupid questions about for X number of years.

We start training camp in 1 month, so as long as they sign before day 1 I won't be concerned in the slightest. I want them there from day 1 though and hope it's hashed out by September 19th.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Honestly should have signed them last summer.

If the thought is that you need to make sure Raymond and/or Seider was the real deal, then worst case they were not and your rebuild was screwed regardless of what you paid them. Best case was you just got bargain long terms deals on the two.

Now at the mercy of worse players getting high cap hits, pushing Detroits guys numbers even higher.

What if the players want to wait with signing? Just force them?

 

[norrisnick]

What if the players want to wait with signing? Just force them?

Pay them more to change their mind. Odds are it would have still been less than what they are commanding now this fall with:
1. Ray's significant step up and
2. All the other D that have extended for big money out of their ELCs, none of whom are better than Mo.