Rasmus Ristolainen: The $5M, 0 percentile defenseman

[Beef Invictus]

Comparing Ghost to the dreck that is the rest of the Zona defense is pretty meaningless, he's better than the corpse of Stralman (who no one considered to be a top 4 D-man the last few years), he's playing better than Chychrun (who is their version of Risto, high draft pick who plays like a mid-round pick), he's better than Lyubushkin, a scrub's scrub, Mayo, a 25 year old rookie scrub, and 20 year old Soderstrom, who was sent back to the AHL.

Timmins, Moser and Dineen, their three young D-men, have as good or better metrics in SSS samples.

So looking at relative stats only tells you Ghost is playing better than teammates who couldn't make most NHL rosters.

Luckily we also have a lot of time here to refer to where he was a good top 4 dman. At times, easily top pair quality.

I think you already know that on some level, hence the need to refer to goofy nonsense like TOI to try and claim he's bad.

 

[Starat327]

If we took this post at face value and turned this into a politics thread we would likely experience a healthier and more rational discussion lol

I hate to admit this, but you are probably right.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The exact same is true for advanced stats. We can all manipulate things to support our argument.

The difference is that there's is a group of us who try hard to use them objectively because we really wonder what the players are (as well as players around the league), and another group that used them to further a pro-management agenda.

Anyone trying to paint Risto as a positive and Ghost as a negative is the latter, and there's a reason stats nerds from other fanbases without a horse in the race disagree with them.

 

[deadhead]

You did claim Yandle was better. You claimed he's a good third pair PP specialist and that Ghost is a #7.

Your usage of stats is equivalent to trying to distort calculus to prove that 2+2=9. It has resulted in so many wildly wrong assessments that you no longer have any credibility. You are purposefully deceitful because your only goal is defending whoever is running the team.

Beef, you know better than throw lies around, "fake news" is beneath you.
I never claimed Yandle was better, I just said the difference wasn't enough to justify $4.5M for a 3rd pair D-man.

PP xGF/60 last four years:
Yandle, 7.27, 7.11, 7.24, 5.45
Ghost, 8.20, 6.28, 7.45, 6.18

 

[deadhead]

Luckily we also have a lot of time here to refer to where he was a good top 4 dman. At times, easily top pair quality.

I think you already know that on some level, hence the need to refer to goofy nonsense like TOI to try and claim he's bad.

Yes. Ancient history, 2017-18.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Beef, you know better than throw lies around, "fake news" is beneath you.
I never claimed Yandle was better, I just said the difference wasn't enough to justify $4.5M for a 3rd pair D-man.

PP xGF/60 last four years:
Yandle, 7.27, 7.11, 7.24, 5.45
Ghost, 8.20, 6.28, 7.45, 6.18

I already quoted it to you. You spent many posts claiming that Yandle is a fine 3rd pair dman and then called Ghost a #7. This is not fake. This is fact.

Could you please add some context to those stats you've presented? 2 + 2 does not equal 9.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yes. Ancient history, 2017-18.

Or last year.

Hey, if 2018 qualifies as ancient history in sports-time, then we really can't blame Hextall for Fletcher's inability to build a team, can we? Oops.

 

[Starat327]

Or last year.

Hey, if 2018 qualifies as ancient history in sports-time, then we really can't blame Hextall for Fletcher's inability to build a team, can we? Oops.

Walking into his own circular logic to invalidate himself has basically become a meme at this point.

 

[FlyersFanSinceBirth]

The difference is that there's is a group of us who try hard to use them objectively because we really wonder what the players are (as well as players around the league), and another group that used them to further a pro-management agenda.

Anyone trying to paint Risto as a positive and Ghost as a negative is the latter, and there's a reason stats nerds from other fanbases without a horse in the race disagree with them.

So if you like Gostisbehere you're right and if you like Ristolainen you're wrong? Perfect! No more need for any further discussion.

 

[Beef Invictus]

So if you like Gostisbehere you're right and if you like Ristolainen you're wrong? Perfect! No more need for any further discussion.

If you like the results of Ghost's play and dislike the results of Risto's play then a lot of math and counting of results on-ice backs you up. If you take the opposite stance, then there is not evidence backing you up. That is how it is, yes.

It's not about liking the players themselves. At least for me. I don't give a shit about them as people or whatever. It's all about what they produce for the team. Ghost produced good results for the team. He's doing that in Arizona now too. Likewise for NAK when he was allowed to play his game. Risto is not producing good results, and he's failing to produce good results while paid extravagantly relative to those results.

It's not the interpersonal soap opera you guys seem to think it is.

 

[deadhead]

Or maybe you don't want either player and prefer York and the cap space?
York is going through rookie growing pains but still looks better to me than Ghost of the last three years.

I wanted to move on from Ghost after he got his knees scoped, bad sign on a player who showed no signs of playing up to his peak.

To me the difference between Yandle and Ghost on the PP, is when they screw up, Yandle is three strides behind the breakaway and Ghost only one.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Or maybe you don't want either player and prefer York and the cap space?
York is going through rookie growing pains but still looks better to me than Ghost of the last three years.

I wanted to move on from Ghost after he got his knees scoped, bad sign on a player who showed no signs of playing up to his peak.

To me the difference between Yandle and Ghost on the PP, is when they screw up, Yandle is three strides behind the breakaway and Ghost only one.

If you preferred York then you should be savaging management for giving his spot to Yandle with a promise of zero accountability instead of endlessly defending them.

I remember when I argued it would be the case, that you insisted it wouldn't happen. It did! You were wrong, because you chose despite all evidence to believe the team is run on merit.

 

[Curufinwe]

The Flyers have the 28th best Net PP in the league this season with Yandle giving up shorties for fun.

 

[Striiker]

If you preferred York then you should be savaging management for giving his spot to Yandle with a promise of zero accountability instead of endlessly defending them.

I remember when I argued it would be the case, that you insisted it wouldn't happen. It did! You were wrong, because you chose despite all evidence to believe the team is run on merit.

York also has nothing to do with Ghost is any way, shape, or form. They don’t even play the same side of the ice.

LD: Sanheim, Provorov, York
RD: Ellis, Ghost, Braun

A far better defense and one that costs less money too.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Here was @deadhead take on Yandle playing ahead of York:

I keep forgetting all the stupid shit Chuck did and then I read these thread headlines (threadlines TM). Keith F***ing Yandle lolz.

God forbid we do anything that makes any sense. Hockey is stupid.

"hes barely going to play!"

"If a kid cant beat him out, whats that say about the kid!?!"

He's not NHL ready. It's that simple.
When a kid is NHL ready, it's obvious.
Farabee two years ago, Allison this spring.

I like that you still think this team is run purely on merit and not bias despite the mountain of evidence against that

You mean the molehill of evidence?
Every example put forth is easily refuttable.

Take Frost for example, how could they send him down to the AHL then trade for Thompson?

Well, it's simple, as a rookie he was subpar defensively, he had 3 points his first two games, then a total of 4 assists over his next 18 games, 1-5 6 ES over 20 games isn't what you want from a 3C - Laughton was also subpar defensively as a rookie, but was at least a reliable scorer. And he got sent down the next year for a full AHL season.

You claim to want York over Risto and Ghost. Apparently you didn't want him over Yandle, because management didn't want that and you can't go against them too much.

The fact that Thompson performed below expectations in the playoffs (he was fine in his short end of season cameo) doesn't make Frost NHL ready. If Frost or Bunnaman had shown they could handle center, they never would have traded for Thompson.

I like that you felt the need to rapidly try and shift the discussion over to Frost, because you must have sensed you wouldn't be able to defend Yandle over York for long. Too bad for you Thompson over Frost was just as wildly wrong.

We have since learned that merit was completely left out of Yandle's signing. It was purposefully removed. York's rightful spot was given to a guy who didn't deserve it. And we all knew he didn't deserve it over York, and we were all right. No hindsight at all. Easily assessable and predictable at the time. Even you were penciling him into the roster where he belonged, but the second Fletcher signed York you tossed that away and bowed before him.

 

[Beef Invictus]

York also has nothing to do with Ghost is any way, shape, or form. They don’t even play the same side of the ice.

LD: Sanheim, Provorov, York
RD: Ellis, Ghost, Braun

A far better defense and one that costs less money too.

Playing Ghost on the right would have required that Fletcher (and at the time, AV) completely shed their decades-old, long-held philosophies on strict player roles.

 

[Surrounded By Ahos]

Risto is not producing good results, and he's failing to produce good results while paid extravagantly relative to those results.

And more importantly, the team dumped an absolute shitload of assets to bring him in. Trading away Ghost, a first, two seconds, a seventh, and Hagg all just to acquire Risto is putrid asset management. The swamp king could do better.

 

[Beef Invictus]

And more importantly, the team dumped an absolute shitload of assets to bring him in. Trading away Ghost, a first, two seconds, a seventh, and Hagg all just to acquire Risto is putrid asset management. The swamp king could do better.

Swamp Queen.

You really aren't discriminating about what you seduce are you? It's all the same.

 

[Nizzle]

I for one would like to see good Finnish player playing for the Flyers for once. If that is not possible (and it sure seems like it when you look at the previous three acquisitions: Filppula, Lehterä & Fatsolainen), I would prefer no Finns at all.

 

[deadhead]

Here was @deadhead take on Yandle playing ahead of York:

I like that you felt the need to rapidly try and shift the discussion over to Frost, because you must have sensed you wouldn't be able to defend Yandle over York for long. Too bad for you Thompson over Frost was just as wildly wrong.

We have since learned that merit was completely left out of Yandle's signing. It was purposefully removed. York's rightful spot was given to a guy who didn't deserve it. And we all knew he didn't deserve it over York, and we were all right. No hindsight at all. Easily assessable and predictable at the time. Even you were penciling him into the roster where he belonged, but the second Fletcher signed York you tossed that away and bowed before him.

Wait, weren't you going to expose me as saying Yandle was better than Ghost, then you present this totally off point conversation?
This is worse than "when did you stop beating your wife," this is "let's talk about a hypothetical girlfriend . . ."

And York didn't look that good at the start of the AHL season, why rush him when he looks like he's still adjusting to the pro game? And Yandle started out decently, didn't go downhill until after Ellis got hurt and they saddled him with Seeler as a partner.

So what was the rush in October?

To be honest, I think everyone is surprised how much better York looks in the NHL compared to the AHL, of course, the Phantoms started the season in a funk (I wonder b/c it took time to implement structure on players used to chaos?).

 

[Ghosts Beer]

For a 22 year old playing in an organization pairing him with AHL players and feeding him conflicting directives in a dumpster fire year run by landfill people, yes. That is good. Remember when you did this with NAK and you were wrong? You should probably learn something from that. We know more than you. We are better at this than you.


My expectation of him is that he will at least be a middle six center, and that he'd be good enough this year to be the 4C. Both of those things sure appear to remain true. So that's good.

I know you were trying to do a cute thing there, but it really blew up on you.

Hey, is it good for a GM to be constantly wrong about what players are worthwhile? If we had a GM incapable of that, would you want to keep him for years to come?

And there it is folks, on record. 23 games, 2 goals, 4 assists, and 6 points for Morgan Frost is "good" according to Beef Invictus.

 

[sauce88]

Funny coming from the guy who just loves Zach attack and his 3 points in 40 games. Just have to LOL at that one.

 

[Starat327]

Yall are a trip.

 

[Nizzle]

How about that Ristolainen, eh? Some say he brings grit and toughness, others say he sucks and there's even some who think none of this matters.

 

[Striiker]

I’m still waiting for all that grit and toughness that was advertised.

So far he’s just been a more expensive Hagg, with the same light bumps that the broadcast team screams about.