Rankings of European leagues 2020-2021 season

[Ciccarelli]

They are close. See, Namejs placed gaps and no gaps between the leagues he considered to be close and not close. And once again, he probably does NLA way bigger disservice by sticking with Liiga and Extraliga but the level there is reasonably close. The argument is that the local league pays enough for the players for them to not be worth moving until contracts from truly big leagues (mostly KHL) come in. That's why there are almost no Czechs (there are a couple of dual-nationals) in the DEL despite those two being neighboring countries. You don't see that league just leaking talent left and right. This is a similar situation to the one Finland is currently in (it also has become an old men league now).


I understand. Point was that you are familiar with the concept of better-paying league not necessarily being decisively better.


So have the EIHL ones, Nottingham even managed to finish 1st in the group in 17/18.

1.) I was mainly referring to the OP that placed Extraliga above Liiga. I disagree.

2.) There's literally a post in this very thread that shows how many good youngsters there are in Liiga playing full seasons.

So now there are arguments to put Liiga down becose it's "an old man's league" and becose it's "a development league for kids". Always something new.

 

[SoundAndFury]

So now there are arguments to put Liiga down becose it's "an old man's league" and becose it's "a development league for kids". Always something new.

What's really new is that someone can take a piece of conversation and react to it like someone's insulting his mother Nobody has this tinfoil hat agenda to "put the Liiga down".

As the league quality drops old players become more effective, same happened to the Czech league some time ago. Which is something you were referring to in the previous post. Well, we are at the point where Kontiola led the league in scoring as well and something like Karpat, the league's richest team, had Heska, Kunyk, Niemela, Pyorala, Aaltonen, Jokinen in leading roles, all 30+. Didn't work that well for them but it doesn't change the fact that's how it is.

 

[Ciccarelli]

What's really new is that someone can take a piece of conversation and react to it like someone's insulting his mother Nobody has this tinfoil hat agenda to "put the Liiga down".

Meh, just debunking weak arguments. Average age for Liiga teams is lower than most of the other top leagues btw. But lets not let good facts get in the way of the conversation.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Meh, just debunking weak arguments. Average age for Liiga teams is lower than most of the other top leagues btw. But lets not let good facts get in the way of the conversation.

That wasn't even an argument, that was just a mention on the side. No one was saying "Liiga is bad because they are all old". Lukko actually won with what was a very young team. Doesn't change the fact that league's two biggest/richest teams - Karpat and Tappara - were built around guys that are way past their prime. And if you were to ask yourself "why?" you may come up with two theories: 1) they are flat-out dumb; 2) they saw those guys as the worthiest of the investment. And same applies to the Czech league with guys like Gulas or Ruzicka. That doesn't mean the whole league is old and bad.

 

[Albatros]

I'd say that Allsvenskan has become much stronger over the past 2-3 years. The bigger teams in Allsvenskan have started to actually take care of their market potential in order to gain more revenue, and I believe teams like Björklöven, Modo, Timrå (who got promoted this season), Södertälje or Västerås would not really struggle to establish themselves in the SHL over a 3 year period. And remember that HV71 just got relegated, making Allsvenskan even more interesting/stronger depending on how you wish to view it

Just like in every other league, bigger market teams have started to play a bigger role in Allsvenskan. So over the next 5 years, I'd suggest that there will be a rather big divide between the top- and bottom-teams, and the top teams in Allsvenskan will be much, much closer to the bottom 4-6 in the SHL.

Allsvenskan 2010/11 vs. SHL 2020/21:
Växjö Lakers 1./1.
Rögle BK 2./2.
Örebro HK 3./6.
Leksands IF 4./3.

 

[Ciccarelli]

That wasn't even an argument, that was just a mention on the side. No one was saying "Liiga is bad because they are all old". Lukko actually won with what was a very young team. Doesn't change the fact that league's two biggest/richest teams - Karpat and Tappara - were built around guys that are way past their prime. And if you were to ask yourself "why?" you may come up with two theories: 1) they are flat-out dumb; 2) they saw those guys as the worthiest of the investment. And same applies to the Czech league with guys like Gulas or Ruzicka. That doesn't mean the whole league is old and bad.

My initial argument was that Liiga isnt below Extraliga. Didnt even say if I think its at the same level or better. Just that it isnt worse. Havent seen any arguments prooving that statement wrong and probably wont see.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Allsvenskan 2010/11 vs. SHL 2020/21:
Växjö Lakers 1./1.
Rögle BK 2./2.
Örebro HK 3./6.
Leksands IF 4./3.

Meanwhile in the Liiga:

Jukurit made the PO 0/5 times since leaving Mestis
Vaasan Sport 1/7
KooKoo 2/6

None of the teams won a single round of the PO.

Sweden is a success story, no doubt about it, they are also ones with still functioning and meaningful relegation/promotion system but in other leagues, the whole expansion thing is really questionable.

My initial argument was that Liiga isnt below Extraliga. Didnt even say if I think its at the same level or better. Just that it isnt worse. Havent seen any arguments prooving that statement wrong and probably wont see.

Yes because nobody was arguing with it. Yes OP wrote it so maybe he will get back to you but he also thinks the Latvian team in this WC is better than Finnish so you know, that's what kids call "haters" these days.

 

[vorky]

Since you are discussing the Czech TELH league & Finnish Liiga

1.Pardubice as one of the wealthiest clubs had overal budget at 140 million CZK (5.5 million euro) in 2020-21, down by 15 million CZK due to pandemic. The lowest budget should be around 45 million CZK (1.7 million euro). This sum includes the players payrolls as well as day-to-day expenses with front-office, travelling etc.

Finnish posters may add the numbers for Liiga clubs.

2. Regular season average attendance. I see the following trend - TELH is growing step by step while Liiga is decreasing. Two major reasons for Liiga decrease are Jokerit (btw. the regress started in their last season) & expansion. Likely with the new venues the grow might happen.

PS: Hoping I do not have any typo here.

EDIT: Just for ilustration, Lev Praha had reportedly the budget around 675 million CZK (26 million euro). Unreachable for TELH clubs, even Sparta has around 110 million CZK (4 million euro).

 

[Ciccarelli]

I dont know what attendances have to do with the level of play, but am fairly certain that the figures will drop year by year in Finland. For a few reasons, the main one being that kids dont care about hockey. Esports is where its at.

 

[A Bundy]

The Fjordkraft liga is the best. Subtly been comparable with NHL most of this season when it comes to attendance.

 

[vorky]

I dont know what attendances have to do with the level of play, but am fairly certain that the figures will drop year by year in Finland. For a few reasons, the main one being that kids dont care about hockey. Esports is where its at.

It is another insight on the topic. General rule is the players want to play in front of a full arena, it is good for atmosphere & all-around feeling. If you have bigger venue, especially sold-out, you have more money to invest into players, so getting better players. If you agree that budgets play a huge role in a level of play (you can afford better players), then attendance is another part of the overal story. But you can disagree.

Honestly, I am surprised by your words about future´s drop of the Liiga attendance.

 

[Ciccarelli]

It is another insight on the topic. General rule is the players want to play in front of a full arena, it is good for atmosphere & all-around feeling. If you have bigger venue, especially sold-out, you have more money to invest into players, so getting better players. If you agree that budgets play a huge role in a level of play (you can afford better players), then attendance is another part of the overal story. But you can disagree.

Honestly, I am surprised by your words about future´s drop of the Liiga attendance.

Its very clear if you just go the games and look at the attendance. I am a season ticket holder for Ässät and have been for 10 years and I can honestly say that the average age of the spectators have gotten visibly higher even in a short time period like that. Must be closer to 50 years on average.
Ive been trying to get my son interested, but after he went with me to a game he is not willing to come back. Much rather play Fortnite and Minecraft. And not just play but watch others play on YouTube..

 

[SoundAndFury]

I mean again, during the expansion Liiga added 3 small market teams. And lost Jokerit before. Of course, the average attendance is going to drop, it's not even about the lack of interest or anything.

 

[Nuggets]

When Jokerit left, Liiga lost a lot of credibility and power in the league rating area.

I don’t even think Liiga would be comparable to the KHL, National League or SHL right now.

It would be closely comparable to the Extraliga but I think the Czechs take the edge here.

You can’t lose one of the most prominent organizations in your league and expect to replace them with three small market teams.

 

[vorky]

Its very clear if you just go the games and look at the attendance. I am a season ticket holder for Ässät and have been for 10 years and I can honestly say that the average age of the spectators have gotten visibly higher even in a short time period like that. Must be closer to 50 years on average.
Ive been trying to get my son interested, but after he went with me to a game he is not willing to come back. Much rather play Fortnite and Minecraft. And not just play but watch others play on YouTube..

I understand your arguments.

And your words are another critical issue for hockey in Europe. I do not know about the NHL ... Of course, I can not say for all European leagues, but I see the same trend - younger generation not interested in attending of a hockey game - in the Czech & Slovak league as well. All leagues with that issue should find solutions to fix it, to get younger people to the arena.

I will give you an example. The KHL had the same problem by 2014 when Chernyshenko came to the office. Audience was too old. His first decision was to fix it - the league´s attention were concentrated to young people, especially mothers with their kids, so all families. Clubs are obligated to care about this segment of audience. If you watched any KHL games in the last two to three years, you could see many young people & kids with parents in venues. The KHL audience has been getting younger. Of course, they need to keep working, now with so-called Generation Z. Would be great if Liiga´s leadership take steps to fix the problem with old audience as you describe it.

 

[Sanf]

Well losing Jokerit and even Blues hurt Liiga. Obviously two bigger market teams. And there was more money (even if more often it was stupid money).

It´s not wrong to say it´s young player league. Because yes lot of teams has taken more and more feeder team type of approach. League has so many young players that couldn´t had dreamed of playing in adults 10 or 20 years ago. The side effects of this were lot on papers this season. Younger player trying to heckle older players about their age. Brad Lamberts "What you are... 30 or something" was kind of funny attempt.

But at the same time you can say it kind of is also older player league. Better than average (or even average) player can play much longer and be productive to older age due to the lowering quality of the league.

 

[Lambo]

Well losing Jokerit and even Blues hurt Liiga. Obviously two bigger market teams. And there was more money (even if more often it was stupid money).

It´s not wrong to say it´s young player league. Because yes lot of teams has taken more and more feeder team type of approach. League has so many young players that couldn´t had dreamed of playing in adults 10 or 20 years ago. The side effects of this were lot on papers this season. Younger player trying to heckle older players about their age. Brad Lamberts "What you are... 30 or something" was kind of funny attempt.

But at the same time you can say it kind of is also older player league. Better than average (or even average) player can play much longer and be productive to older age due to the lowering quality of the league.

Liiga is a good mixture of Grandpa and Juniors with a lack of parents.

 

[Sanf]

Liiga is a good mixture of Grandpa and Juniors with a lack of parents.

Sure it is. But I´m not entirely fond of this kind of feeder league. I understand that it is way of getting money to the teams.

I mean this possible "hockey brat" generation wouldn´t be generic atleast. But I´m not fan how the young players are in the middle of this todays "prospect hype". These kids will find the threads that are started when they are 13 or 14 or something. They are smarter than us with internet. They will need a good head.

Really off topic I admitt.

 

[Eye of Ra]

is lituhanian league any good?

 

[Namejs]

is lituhanian league any good?

The short answer would be no.

If you were to rank the Lithuanian league, you would have to dig deep to even find a bad enough comparison. It's worse than the Latvian 2nd division, worse than the 4th division in Sweden.

It's a beer league with some confused semi-pros sprinkled on top.

 

[SoundAndFury]

is lituhanian league any good?

The short answer would be no.

If you were to rank the Lithuanian league, you would have to dig deep to even find a bad enough comparison. It's worse than the Latvian 2nd division, worse than the 4th division in Sweden.

It's a beer league with some confused semi-pros sprinkled on top.

Namejs conclusions of what it is are mostly correct but comparisons might be a bit off, especially the Latvian 2nd division once, since Energija played in the Latvian league for years and only missed the playoffs once usually being a mid-table team between 4th-6th. I think our current top-2 teams could hang in a Latvian top league in a similar way so I have a really hard time judging the league overall being worse than Latvia2.

They have also played in Belarus2 from 2013 to 2018 (although it was before the Belarussian league was reorganized a few years ago) and, even though it's quite old and indirect comparison, Kremenchuk, one of the leading Ukrainian teams of the modern era, finished below Energija in the standings.

Ukrainian league is actually a very good comparison to the Lithuanian one as it has the same factors: very low number of teams, subsequently huge gaps in quality, our NTs being at a similar level, etc. And top Lithuanian teams could definitely play in the Ukrainian league. So considering how highly Namejs ranked the Ukrainian league either the Lithuanian is not that bad or Ukrainian is not that good, depending on criteria. Most likely both.

 

[Namejs]

Namejs conclusions of what it is are mostly correct but comparisons might be a bit off, especially the Latvian 2nd division once, since Energija played in the Latvian league for years and only missed the playoffs once usually being a mid-table team between 4th-6th. I think our current top-2 teams could hang in a Latvian top league in a similar way so I have a really hard time judging the league overall being worse than Latvia2.

They have also played in Belarus2 from 2013 to 2018 (although it was before the Belarussian league was reorganized a few years ago) and, even though it's quite old and indirect comparison, Kremenchuk, one of the leading Ukrainian teams of the modern era, finished below Energija in the standings.

Ukrainian league is actually a very good comparison to the Lithuanian one as it has the same factors: very low number of teams, subsequently huge gaps in quality, our NTs being at a similar level, etc. And top Lithuanian teams could definitely play in the Ukrainian league. So considering how highly Namejs ranked the Ukrainian league either the Lithuanian is not that bad or Ukrainian is not that good, depending on criteria. Most likely both.

Haha, I've never seen you being so biased before.

Elektrenai have never finished 4th. The only time they finished 4th was when there were 4 teams in their division.

They have also never finished 5th.

And when they finished 6th, there either were 6 teams in the league or they ranked above U-18 or U-20 teams. The only exceptions are a couple of times in the couple of years after the 2008-09 recession when there was a beer league team playing in the 1st tier.

And we actually have some examples of Lithuanians playing in both Latvia2 and the Lithuanian league. Karolis Krasilnikovas scored 10 points in 11 games in the Lithuanian league at the ripe age of 17 and went on to score 15 points in 25 games in Latvia2 in the next couple of years.

I don't mind adjusting my ranking by saying that Lithuania is on par with Latvia2. Mostly because I forgot it was now a developmental league/U23. My point still stands, though.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Haha, I've never seen you being so biased before.

Elektrenai have never finished 4th. The only time they finished 4th was when there were 4 teams in their division.

They have also never finished 5th.

And when they finished 6th, there either were 6 teams in the league or they ranked above U-18 or U-20 teams. The only exceptions are a couple of times in the couple of years after the 2008-09 recession when there was a beer league team playing in the 1st tier.

And we actually have some examples of Lithuanians playing in both Latvia2 and the Lithuanian league. Karolis Krasilnikovas scored 10 points in 11 games in the Lithuanian league at the ripe age of 17 and went on to score 15 points in 25 games in Latvia2 in the next couple of years.

I don't mind adjusting my ranking by saying that Lithuania is on par with Latvia2. Mostly because I forgot it was now a developmental league/U23. My point still stands, though.

It's not as much bias that frankly, this is working in the dark for me, a bit. Regarding the league-table position, I just trusted eliteprospects as I was way too young to care where they are in the standings or have more than a general interest in what they are doing. Admittedly I know next to nothing about Latvia2 as well other than that quite a few of our kids play there.

Regarding the production comparison, it's the issue with extreme differences in level between the teams in the Lithuanian league. This year there was a team that allowed 8,2 goals per game on average. So going PPG is no big task even when you are 17. If you look at someone like Cetvertak he was over PPG in the Lithuanian league when he was 14 or 15 but at the same time, it's the league where top players score 2,5 PPG so direct comparison how someone like Krasilnikovas do doesn't tell anything. But again, I know nothing about Latvia2 so maybe you have the same issues there.

But it's not really even the main issue. The point is when the gaps between the teams are so huge how do you even determine what the overall quality of the league is. And it's a similar situation in many leagues. Going back to your ranking and Ukraine being as high as it is, it seems fairly realistic if you base it on Donbass roster which really could play in VHL without much of an issue and be one of the stronger teams in AlpsHL and such. But then there are just 2 other teams that are somewhat close to their level and the bottom two allow 5 goals per game on average.

 

[Namejs]

It's not as much bias that frankly, this is working in the dark for me, a bit. Regarding the league-table position, I just trusted eliteprospects as I was way too young to care where they are in the standings or have more than a general interest in what they are doing. Admittedly I know next to nothing about Latvia2 as well other than that quite a few of our kids play there.

Regarding the production comparison, it's the issue with extreme differences in level between the teams in the Lithuanian league. This year there was a team that allowed 8,2 goals per game on average. So going PPG is no big task even when you are 17. If you look at someone like Cetvertak he was over PPG in the Lithuanian league when he was 14 or 15 but at the same time, it's the league where top players score 2,5 PPG so direct comparison how someone like Krasilnikovas do doesn't tell anything. But again, I know nothing about Latvia2 so maybe you have the same issues there.

But it's not really even the main issue. The point is when the gaps between the teams are so huge how do you even determine what the overall quality of the league is. And it's a similar situation in many leagues. Going back to your ranking and Ukraine being as high as it is, it seems fairly realistic if you base it on Donbass roster which really could play in VHL without much of an issue and be one of the stronger teams in AlpsHL and such. But then there are just 2 other teams that are somewhat close to their level and the bottom two allow 5 goals per game on average.

Yeah, I'm not trying to rub it in. The Latvian 2nd division consists of junior/U-23 teams which are also filled up with some veteran players. So you even get a few players with VHL, Allsvenskan experience. My educated guess is that these are former pros turned amateur. And there are a few farm clubs there from the 1st div, so some of the players can play in both tiers. But it's mostly unimpressive younger players in their early 20s with some really talented kids playing there as well.

And as you said, there are plenty of other Lithuanians playing in Latvia2 and their production rates are overall pretty similar in both leagues.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Yeah I know Kuzmenkovs played there for a hometown team, that's the second thing I know about that league Never really understood what happened to his career.