OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Congrats to the Houston Cheaters on their win

[ChaosAgent]

Yes, they should throw millions at a guy before he shows anything at the major league level, and if they don’t, it’s incompetence. Never change, yinzers

If he shows something at the ML level, he would be worth far more.

"KesselMania" as the Yinzer police is hilarious tho

 

[Empoleon8771]

If he shows something at the ML level, he would be worth far more.

"KesselMania" as the Yinzer police is hilarious tho

Nah, no he wouldn't. There are only 3 catchers who make more than $10 million a year, and all of those contracts were UFA contracts.

An extension for Endy right now would look something like the 2012 Salvador Perez contract. He signed for 5 years and $7 million guaranteed, with 3 club options of $3.75 million, $5 million and $6 million. If you make that all guaranteed, it's 8 years and $21.75 million. Maybe bump it up for inflation, but you're still only looking at something like $30 million over 8 years at most.

Perez then got a much larger deal after those 5 guaranteed years because he was a monster in the MLB, but that "much larger deal" was 5 years and $52 million. His two contracts were the equivalent of 10 years and $59 million, and 85% of that money came after he was dominating the C position for years.

 

[DanielPlainview]

If he shows something at the ML level, he would be worth far more.

"KesselMania" as the Yinzer police is hilarious tho

And den afteh dat the Stillers need to stahrt Kenny Picklett. Go Pens

 

[ChaosAgent]

And den afteh dat the Stillers need to stahrt Kenny Picklett. Go Pens

You think the Steelers shouldn't start Kenny Pickett?

But only cause you are more cultured and educated than this Pittsburgh yokel?

Hate saying this, but care to compare SAT scores?

 

[ChaosAgent]

Nah, no he wouldn't. There are only 3 catchers who make more than $10 million a year, and all of those contracts were UFA contracts.

An extension for Endy right now would look something like the 2012 Salvador Perez contract. He signed for 5 years and $7 million guaranteed, with 3 club options of $3.75 million, $5 million and $6 million. If you make that all guaranteed, it's 8 years and $21.75 million. Maybe bump it up for inflation, but you're still only looking at something like $30 million over 8 years at most.

Perez then got a much larger deal after those 5 guaranteed years because he was a monster in the MLB, but that "much larger deal" was 5 years and $52 million. His two contracts were the equivalent of 10 years and $59 million, and 85% of that money came after he was dominating the C position for years.

Sure, bump it for inflation.

Endy's value is also his bat. Seems like he could play all over the field TBH. Of the extension candidates, I like him better than anyone else we have.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Very knee jerk but the hot end of season by some of the young guys at or near the majors have given some hope.

Also as an aside, remember when people were upset that we traded Jacob Stallings. Woof.

Yes, this is a good point, as Stallings completely nosedived this year. I don't really think much of the return, though. Nicolas seems to have a lot of similarities to Mlodzinski in the sense that they might just be depth, up/down guys for a little while because they are so inconsistent. Scott isn't very good at all, though there's still time for Nicolas to turn it around and maybe he's effective out of the pen. Either way, it's definitely a nothing trade at worst, and I was one of the people who was not happy about moving Stallings.

I think Endy is worth a lot of hype, and obviously whether or not he gets a little debut this season is a moot point. The final decisions about what to do with him will be interesting, since he probably can stick at catcher with a little bit more patience and since Davis is somewhat of an open question there + the norm anymore is to have two catchers.

My most optimistic thought is that you could plan for both of them to be joining the MLB team next season and learning the ropes from Perez. Endy clearly has some edge to get there more quickly, maybe after the 7th year ST manipulation three or four weeks or so, whereas Davis needs to stay healthy. If both make are on the team while Perez is there, Endy can play all around and Davis will need to play some RF or 1B, as well as DHing obviously.

It's definitely not a normal needle to thread, but there's a path to 2 backup catchers who can also play elsewhere and DH. I think for this reason it actually makes the most sense to prioritize 1B in the offseason, and there's just no real other choice than Mancini IMO, even if I'd be surprised (and his salary demands will have to be somewhat modest). I think we're thinking about Andujar in that role (along with being the RH OF option) and that we might drag our feet on someone like Aguilar for cheap.

 

[ChaosAgent]

The Stalling return blows, for both parties. Not a victory.

 

[dogthateats]

Please don't take this as FO bashing (I watch 80% of the games), but is there any hope for a considerable free agency signing or two? Like a legit #3 SP or whatever? I enjoy baseball, but don’t get into free agency and signings very much.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I think it's hard to say but based on the history of what Nutting has allowed, chances are slim. For example, if we guess that Quintana would sign for something like 3 years, 40M, that's 1M more than the highest FA contract we've ever done (unless I am mistaken, that's Liriano at 3, 39M).

I'm not really sure what a guy like Mancini will command, but it probably wouldn't break the bank. Another mid-tier option who might get a little more because he can play all over is Drury, though there may also be skeptics that we've just seen his career year and he won't come close to this production next year.

There should really be room to add someone making 15M and someone else making 12M, plus Perez again at 5M. Spotrac currently has the commitments for next year at 27M, but that only accounts for the guaranteed money, and they technically haven't included a huge amount of players. That huge amount of players will basically all be pre-arb, league minimum, other than Keller, Brubaker, and maybe 1 or 2 others who will get modest raises in arbitration.

But in a brutal sense, I think regardless of how reasonable it might seem to sketch anything out, the only attitude to take is "I'll believe it when I see it." A couple players making 7 figures would be minor additions for 20+ other teams, but signing Quintana, Mancini/Drury/Haniger, and Perez would be unprecedented from Nutting. I don't have my hopes up, but the talk has always been that they'll spend when it's time to spend, and Cherington at least seems to want us to think that he's embarrassed about 2022 and that improvement is "urgent".

 

[ChaosAgent]

There should really be room to add someone making 15M and someone else making 12M, plus Perez again at 5M. Spotrac currently has the commitments for next year at 27M, but that only accounts for the guaranteed money, and they technically haven't included a huge amount of players. That huge amount of players will basically all be pre-arb, league minimum, other than Keller, Brubaker, and maybe 1 or 2 others who will get modest raises in arbitration.

But in a brutal sense, I think regardless of how reasonable it might seem to sketch anything out, the only attitude to take is "I'll believe it when I see it." A couple players making 7 figures would be minor additions for 20+ other teams, but signing Quintana, Mancini/Drury/Haniger, and Perez would be unprecedented from Nutting. I don't have my hopes up, but the talk has always been that they'll spend when it's time to spend, and Cherington at least seems to want us to think that he's embarrassed about 2022 and that improvement is "urgent".

This is a big part of why I'm so hard on Cherington to our 2 resident apologists.

All this talk about how he took over a dumpster fire (grossly exaggerated) logically extends to "he needs more time" logically extends to "let's not bother in 2023, 2023's just another year to play the kids."

It's not an unreasonable ask to:
1) Have opening day payroll at $80M+
2) Win 70 games
3) Win more games in the second half than the first half
4) Verbalize a concrete timeline to contention

To ask for less is, IMO, Stockholm Syndrome at work.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

The Stalling return blows, for both parties. Not a victory.

Even if the guys that we recieved never play a major league game, the trade in and of itself was a good idea.

Stallings was a past his prime middle of the road catcher, who precieved value was higher than his actual value. Also middling catchers dont have much to a really shitty team.

Anyone complaining wasnt “because of the return” it was 99% because “trading away all our good players”. Which:

1. He isnt good
2. Is a good idea to begin with

 

[ChaosAgent]

Even if the guys that we recieved never play a major league game, the trade in and of itself was a good idea.

Stallings was a past his prime middle of the road catcher, who precieved value was higher than his actual value. Also middling catchers dont have much to a really shitty team.

Anyone complaining wasnt “because of the return” it was 99% because “trading away all our good players”. Which:

1. He isnt good
2. Is a good idea to begin with

I'm not complaining or anything about the trade. It's neither a victory nor a loss. It's a footnote.

BC has 2 trades he can hang his hat on: Taillon and Musgrove. And TBH I love Endy but I still might prefer an extended Musgrove. Bednar is going to regress to an above-average bullpen guy, not a great one.

If we're able to flip Quintana for 2 good pieces then reunite with him, that would be a huge win as well.

Frazier...eh. What we got is more valuable now (that's how deadline deals are supposed to work), but given that Marcano has no power to speak of and he was the main piece, it's hard to know if Marcano/Suwinski actually beats the other alternatives are out there. 14 months ago Frazier was a very hot commodity.

 

[DanielPlainview]

You think the Steelers shouldn't start Kenny Pickett?

But only cause you are more cultured and educated than this Pittsburgh yokel?

Hate saying this, but care to compare SAT scores?

No he shouldn’t lol total yinzer

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I'm not complaining or anything about the trade. It's neither a victory nor a loss. It's a footnote.

BC has 2 trades he can hang his hat on: Taillon and Musgrove. And TBH I love Endy but I still might prefer an extended Musgrove. Bednar is going to regress to an above-average bullpen guy, not a great one.

If we're able to flip Quintana for 2 good pieces then reunite with him, that would be a huge win as well.

Frazier...eh. What we got is more valuable now (that's how deadline deals are supposed to work), but given that Marcano has no power to speak of and he was the main piece, it's hard to know if Marcano/Suwinski actually beats the other alternatives are out there. 14 months ago Frazier was a very hot commodity.

Thats kinda my point, there were a lot of people that lost their shit about trading an old mediocre catcher just because it's the Pirates who did it. And not because it was a relevant move in the slightest either in loss or return.

 

[ChaosAgent]

No he shouldn’t lol total yinzer

A cudgel used by a midwit.

Good job bruh

 

[Empoleon8771]

Why are we bragging about SAT scores? I got 2200ish on mine back in 2013 and I'm still just a shitposting drunk on here

 

[ChaosAgent]

Thats kinda my point, there were a lot of people that lost their shit about trading an old mediocre catcher just because it's the Pirates who did it. And not because it was a relevant move in the slightest either in loss or return.

At this point I don't really care who we trade away.

Until we add to this roster there's no point in pretending the org is interested in winning. Trade whomever if you're tanking, which is the only thing the regime does competently far as we can tell.

Why are we bragging about SAT scores? I got 2200ish on mine back in 2013 and I'm still just a shitposting drunk on here

When people are using the "yinzer" cudgel, it implies dumb/uneducated.

Totally appropriate for a poster whose name references Phil Kessel, who looks unemployed, and Wrasslin. Arbiter of culture that fellow is.

Also, respect for 2200. Nice score.

 

[DanielPlainview]

I would classify overpaying a catcher who hasn’t played a single second in the major leagues a dumb, total yinzer move lol

 

[Gallatin]

This is a big part of why I'm so hard on Cherington to our 2 resident apologists.

All this talk about how he took over a dumpster fire (grossly exaggerated) logically extends to "he needs more time" logically extends to "let's not bother in 2023, 2023's just another year to play the kids."

It's not an unreasonable ask to:
1) Have opening day payroll at $80M+
2) Win 70 games
3) Win more games in the second half than the first half
4) Verbalize a concrete timeline to contention

To ask for less is, IMO, Stockholm Syndrome at work.

If you're referring to me, I believe next season things start to turn around with a shot at .500 if they wisely invest in a handful of players. The amount you quoted should get the job done if they're smart about it.

Since 2020 I've anticipated that wouldn't happen until 2023 at the earliest. No amount of s***** baseball could change my mind, or make me complain about it. It is what it is. A complete tear down and rebuild doesn't happen overnight.

Yinz lack patience.

 

[Gallatin]

Oneil Cruz hasn't struck out in five games in a row. He's putting up strong numbers this month too.

That crazy ceiling is still in play. But at the very least, he's going to be an impact player.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Yeah, the chase rate falling is a hugely encouraging sign. The next steps will be doing more damage on pitches in the zone (he is too patient at times in certain counts still) and getting the walks up. At the very least, we know he is capable of elite power even when the other parts of the game are out of sync, and that he's also capable of a month of extremely good wRC+.

I think you can also just see it pretty well in how they quickly go through the deGrom ABs from a little while ago. Cruz is up there thinking and trying to get himself on time, and he's doing it mid-game against the best pitcher in the league. He is an extraordinary talent and though I think from an organizational strategy perspective, Reynolds should still be the highest priority (as he is also until proven otherwise the best player), I wouldn't be upset if the only thing Cherington got done was a 10 year deal for Cruz.

 

[ChaosAgent]

If you're referring to me, I believe next season things start to turn around with a shot at .500 if they wisely invest in a handful of players. The amount you quoted should get the job done if they're smart about it.

Since 2020 I've anticipated that wouldn't happen until 2023 at the earliest. No amount of s***** baseball could change my mind, or make me complain about it. It is what it is. A complete tear down and rebuild doesn't happen overnight.

Yinz lack patience.

Good. 75 wins then?

And I was referring to you and one other. You're a good person at least, more than I can say for the other fellow

 

[Gallatin]

At this point I don't really care who we trade away.

Until we add to this roster there's no point in pretending the org is interested in winning. Trade whomever if you're tanking, which is the only thing the regime does competently far as we can tell.



When people are using the "yinzer" cudgel, it implies dumb/uneducated.

Totally appropriate for a poster whose name references Phil Kessel, who looks unemployed, and Wrasslin. Arbiter of culture that fellow is.

Also, respect for 2200. Nice score.

I pull the Yinz out with my best buds bro. It has many many uses within our culture. It says many different things.

 

[Gallatin]

Good. 75 wins then?

And I was referring to you and one other. You're a good person at least, more than I can say for the other fellow

Man Doc - sometimes drinking with you's like shooting moonshine in Westmoreland County. Rough stuff and packs a punch.

Man Doc - sometimes drinking with you's like shooting moonshine in Westmoreland County. Rouch stuff and packs a punch.

If they make the kinds of moves we're talking about, the totally reasonable spending expectations that people have to get above 80 million and fill a hole or three, I'm in the 75-85 win camp with an outside shot at a Wild Card as the team's ceiling.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Man Doc - sometimes drinking with you's like shooting moonshine in Westmoreland County. Rough stuff and packs a punch.


If they make the kinds of moves we're talking about, the totally reasonable spending expectations that people have to get above 80 million and fill a hole or three, I'm in the 75-85 win camp with an outside shot at a Wild Card as the team's ceiling.

I like the self-response, and the content of said self-response. The tank is over. Let's go!