Puck Daddy: Team Europe World Cup players frustrated with format

[xxxx]

"Team Not-Enough-Players-In-This-League-To-Really-Matter"
"Team We Really Shouldn't Be Here But Some of Us Are Regardless"
"Team Nobody Watches In Brussels"
"Team Bettman's Brainfart, Part One"
"Team Anze and Those Other Guys"

Any of these better?

That name I reffered to indicates that there are players who didn't make the rosters of Sweden, Russia, etc., which is not true. I think it's going to be pretty interesting to see a team from all those nations that have one or two very good players, but maybe will never make the olympics. Players like Frans Nielsen. Denmark has not played any olympics and this will very well be the only chance for them (Boedker, Nielsen..) to play on this stage. I think they deserve that. Maybe Slovakia and Switzerland are good enough to have a team, but you would still never have all the best players from the small nations at one place. And I still don't get how people don't get that this is an event organized by the NHL, which is not an international federation. And yes, maybe it is strictly for its players.

 

[FiLe]

I think it's going to be pretty interesting to see a team from all those nations that have one or two very good players, but maybe will never make the olympics. Players like Frans Nielsen. Denmark has not played any olympics and this will very well be the only chance for them (Boedker, Nielsen..) to play on this stage. I think they deserve that. Maybe Slovakia and Switzerland are good enough to have a team, but you would still never have all the best players from the small nations at one place. And I still don't get how people don't get that this is an event organized by the NHL, which is not an international federation. And yes, maybe it is strictly for its players.

Firstly: I don't know what exactly you refer by "this stage" because this is not best-on-best. Not even all of the top-six teams involved will have their best rosters, if the tournament involves only NHLers. Therefore, this is NOT best-on-best. Try to understand.

Secondly: If "this stage" refers to the fact that these players get to play three games against national teams full of NHLers, that is not a rare feat for them either. In fact, your run-of-the-mill WHC provides that opportunity technically yearly, because while not necessarily at their best, the tournament does feature several teams laden with NHLers year after year. Frans Nielsen has been to these tournaments a number of times, and already knows how it feels to play against the Canadian NT full of Canadian NHLers.

Or do you mean playing in front of the audience in Toronto? Well, they experience that too whenever their club team visits Toronto. "But but but, this will be different, because they're representing their country this... no, wait..."

So once again, you are dead wrong and have not exactly thought this through. This is not an event of prestige. It's an event where a selection of players gets to have some fun, put up a bit of a show, then they go back to their club teams and the real work begins. Yes, this is an NHL tournament and the NHL gets to decide what they do. But if you really want to have the kind of event you wish this one was, you'll have to involve the rest of the world. It's as simple as that.

Note: I actually agree with you with the fact that this event can be fun. I've no doubt the players get to have some. But you also seem to hold high hopes that it will be serious, tooth-and-nails competitive hockey. And, well... thus far you'd be better off keeping those thoughts to yourself, because you really don't have a plenty to back them up. Just some wishful thinking.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Having seen plenty of his posts, it's not a tactic. He genuinely doesn't see how weak the arguments being put forward are, or how irrelevant they are to the points he is trying and failing to respond to.

It's all very simple - if some entity is having an international tournament, it should use national teams. Very simple. Any defence of the idiocy being displayed with this tournament is just shameless parroting of the NHL's lame excuses.

speaking of weak arguments can we get back to the U23 not having a true #1 Dman or any good goaltending argument?

and parroting the NHL lame excuses? Man that's weak, it's a tournament hosted by the NHL to provide revenue for the NH and NHLPA loosely based on the international format.

The level of indignation and protest against the format is what I find laughable and is the major point I'm responding to ehre.

Or do people seriously think a business, and that's what the NHL is, is supposed to support every previous format in future attempts to make money for itself.

The bottom line is that the U23 team and the rest of Europe team are most likely to not only be more competitive but also provide more interest and television viewing than the nest 2 best nations not in the tournament.

If the tournament is truly such a such an abomination to the "tradition" of hockey (whatever that is) then hockey fans won;t support it right?

Or will opponents of the tournament simply fall back to the name calling argument once again?

I made mistake and meant the 20th century not the 19th and the point was that sometimes nationalism isn't the most important factor and can be taken to the extreme as we do see with soccer matches and rarely hockey ones.

It is also ironic that the U17 tournament is going on in BC right now and the split Canada squads aren't playing with any less pride or effort that a "truly National" Canadian team would.

 

[Hardyvan123]

For the umpteenth time... if the NHL ends up making money out of this, there's no guarantee they'll just dump the supposed "one time" idea and go back to doing the hard preparation work, trying to negotiate deals with other leagues to have enough players available to arrange a proper tournament. And if they figure this will make a nice replacement for Olympic hockey, it will be even worse.

Who really cares about this argument, after all traditionally the Olympics were made of amateur teams right thus in reality making it not even close to a best on best tournament for much of it's history.

And yes the tournament will make money, after people will get excited to see a team with McDavid, Eichel and other NHL stars they are familiar with instead of the 7th and 8th best nations with very few points of real interest or excitement.

Therefore, the issue is not the existence of this World Cup with the gimmick teams as it is, but the threat it's presenting to the true best-on-best competition (as in, nothing but NTs, every player from every league available) - whether arranged in collaboration with the IIHF and IOC, or by the league itself.

Fear is always a great defense, never mind the non traditional part of it.

But yeah, let it be said that if it is just a fun thing to try and it does not disrupt the usual programming in any manner, there is little reason to complain.

Well it doesn't so people who want to watch will watch most every game with interest unlike the Olympics were too often people only watch their country with little interest in the lesser nations.

South Korea in Olympic hockey is going to be a joke and scores will only be respectful if the better nations don't actually give a full effort.

something for the traditionalists to look forward to no doubt.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Untrue. No evidence supports that. Casual fans I talk to think it's stupid. I've lived 3 decades in Canada and I think it's an embarrassment. "Economics", when viewed from the perspective of generating interest/ticket sales/eyeballs, does not support this model or format - there will be NO ONE hating on a Top 6/Top 8 World Cup format if this U23/Europe Leftovers was never proposed - forum proposals for those ideas would be laughed at moreso than Crosby to Toronto trade proposals and such threads would be immediately locked.

I would hazard a guess and say fewer people are watching this than they would have had they never brought up these imbecilic proposals, but that "fewer" probably isn't enough to prevent sellouts or decent TV revenues unfortunately. It only makes sense economically because the NHL is too cheap to pay for the rights from other leagues and the bean counters decided the savings outweighed the costs of lost viewership, respect and heritage.

Like repeated several dozen times in this thread, the NHL is free to do whatever it pleases with this sideshow - we just won't watch. But we will keep complaining because of the threats it poses to the format that has worked pretty damn well for the past 17 years of Olympics/WCs. If they announced 2018/2022 participation tomorrow, we'll never read this thread or talk about the World Cup again, but until then we'll keep flogging the horse til we damn please.

Well in May at the WHC in Russia we will see if either Slovakia or Switzerland will be a hot ticket or not.

My bet is that people will watch, by the end of summer hokey fans are wanting to see hockey and much more of them will be wanting to see McDavid and company than the 7 and 8th best nations in the world plain and simple.

It's an exhibition tournament and no it won;t be the same as the Olympics but why does that matter anyways just another excuse for people who hate this tournament to complain.

for the record I hate Bettman but I'm a hockey fan and I want to see the best players in the world, which by and large this tournament will do.

and for people who are against this tournament as not being "best on best", seriously give your heads a shake and think are the players on team NAU23 and rest of Europe worse than the Slovak and Swiss national team players.

 

[JackSlater]

speaking of weak arguments can we get back to the U23 not having a true #1 Dman or any good goaltending argument?

Yeah... they don't. You prove the point again about the quality of your points by going back to something you are wrong about. There is no #1 defenceman on that team, and all of their goaltenders are currently AHL goaltenders. You see, most posters are able to recognize when they are demonstrably wrong and at least try something different.

and parroting the NHL lame excuses? Man that's weak, it's a tournament hosted by the NHL to provide revenue for the NH and NHLPA loosely based on the international format.

Apparently you don't know what parroting means. You are the self proclaimed rebel who mindlessly just repeats what the NHL told you to think, regardless of how brainless their excuses are. Yes, the NHL has the right to do this. No one has questioned that, as you have been informed numerous times. The NHL having the right to do it does not make it any less idiotic. Of course, when someone needs the NHL to tell them how to think they perhaps cannot recognize that.

The level of indignation and protest against the format is what I find laughable and is the major point I'm responding to ehre.

Or do people seriously think a business, and that's what the NHL is, is supposed to support every previous format in future attempts to make money for itself.

I couldn't care less what the NHL does to make money. No one outside of NHL owners or NHL players should care... unless of course said person is just parroting the NHL. As a fan, I only care about the quality of the hockey product, which is exactly what is being hurt. It's mind numbing that random fans would bother defending this idiocy in the name of the NHL's profits, when those fans don't benefit at all from those profits (and are unable to prove that additional profits will even be made).

The bottom line is that the U23 team and the rest of Europe team are most likely to not only be more competitive but also provide more interest and television viewing than the nest 2 best nations not in the tournament.

That isn't the bottom line - it is just your assumption. Many people assume otherwise. Other than deciding to be an NHL lapdog I cannot imagine why a fan would care how big the viewership is for the tournament. Not that there is any reason to think that the gimmick will affect viewership significantly in either direction.

If the tournament is truly such a such an abomination to the "tradition" of hockey (whatever that is) then hockey fans won;t support it right?

Yeah, what is "tradition" anyway? What does "international" mean? Who knows these things?

I assume hockey fans will support this tournament, in spite of its idiotic nature. People in Canada love hockey and will support it, obviously. The rest of the world will ignore this tournament, and as has been told to you numerous times, the idiotic gimmicks are part of the reason in Europe at least.

Or will opponents of the tournament simply fall back to the name calling argument once again?

I made mistake and meant the 20th century not the 19th and the point was that sometimes nationalism isn't the most important factor and can be taken to the extreme as we do see with soccer matches and rarely hockey ones.

Nationalism is an important factor in an INTERNATIONAL tournament. This is being presented as an INTERNATIONAL even by the NHL. By definition, an INTERNATIONAL tournament is meant to be contested between NATIONS. The concept is incredibly simple for most people to understand.

It is also ironic that the U17 tournament is going on in BC right now and the split Canada squads aren't playing with any less pride or effort that a "truly National" Canadian team would.

I'm not surprised that you don't see how that situation, which is actually also pretty stupid (though not on the level of this tournament) is not all that similar. Those players are still representing their country. Players on the gimmick teams are not representing their country in a supposedly international tournament, and in fact may end up playing against a team that is actually representing their country.

 

[FiLe]

Well it doesn't so people who want to watch will watch most every game with interest unlike the Olympics were too often people only watch their country with little interest in the lesser nations.

South Korea in Olympic hockey is going to be a joke and scores will only be respectful if the better nations don't actually give a full effort.

something for the traditionalists to look forward to no doubt.

I kinda like the international game. I like watching the comparative might between various nations. Sometimes that leads to lopsided matchups, because it's a natural part of it. And I also think it's a shame if this tournament will end taking away the pinnacle event that allows us to follow its progression.

But I can see you don't care about all that. You only care about seeing as many NHLers as possible. And yeah, that's cool. People like different things. Some like Snickers, others like Mars bars.

But people who don't like Snickers, should not come and argue that people who do like Snickers shouldn't complain, when they're being served something that's being marketed as Snickers but really tastes like crap.

Because that's what you're doing here.

and for people who are against this tournament as not being "best on best", seriously give your heads a shake and think are the players on team NAU23 and rest of Europe worse than the Slovak and Swiss national team players.

"Best on best" does not refer to the overall player quality. It refers to all participants being able to use the best possible rosters available to them. And some countries depend on Euro players to equal or close-to-equal measure as they do on NHLers. And even without Slovakia and Switzerland in, that fact will be felt in the World Cup too if Russia, Finland and the Czech Rep don't have access to some of the Euro players they depend on.

But again, I can see you don't care about that. And it's still cool. You just should stop crapping on people who do care about it. We're already being crapped on by the NHL (and even if they have the right to do so, we still don't have to like it) so you don't have to add to that.

 

[habsrule4eva3089]

The players are irrelevant, it's the people of the World that create a stage.

Why is the Olympics, Football, Rugby, Cricket World Cup the biggest 4 events on the planet?

People care, Olympic Hockey brings a child from Moose Jaw Sasketchewan, to Auckland New Zealand together through sport, in a very beautiful sport we have.

What is the nhl trying to prove with this gimmick. It's sad. It's not an international tournament, it's sad such corruption is still alive and people can't think reasonably and create a true masterpiece. Not that we really need it.

International Hockey only needs World Championships and Olympics. Nothing more.

http://www.tsn.ca/rugby/video/a-rugby-world-cup-to-remember~739573

Brilliant piece by tsn, on why underdogs matter.

People well mostly and only ''north americans'' don't realize what an honour it is to play for your country, whether your a Canadian Hockey player or South Korean Hockey player, your playing for your nation, there's nothing more honorable then that in sport.

Connor McDavid, Canada's best player might have to play against his countrymen alongside Americans in an ''international tournament'', can you imagine explaining this to people around the World. Just typing it sounds like embarassing, I hope this doesn't break a lot of publicity around the world, it obviously won't but it'll be ridiculed to oblivion.

 

[JackSlater]

The players are irrelevant, it's the people of the World that create a stage.

Why is the Olympics, Football, Rugby, Cricket World Cup the biggest 4 events on the planet?

People care, Olympic Hockey brings a child from Moose Jaw Sasketchewan, to Auckland New Zealand together through sport, in a very beautiful sport we have.

What is the nhl trying to prove with this gimmick. It's sad. It's not an international tournament, it's sad such corruption is still alive and people can't think reasonably and create a true masterpiece. Not that we really need it.

International Hockey only needs World Championships and Olympics. Nothing more.

The players are incredibly important. The Olympic tournament does not just automatically hold a high intrinsic value. There is a reason that Olympic soccer is not valued to nearly the same degree that the World Cup is... one has the world's best players, the other does not.

If you're going to harp on about the Olympics, you also cannot criticize the NHL for being corrupt. The NHL is acting stupidly, but it isn't particularly corrupt. The IOC is incredibly corrupt.

Connor McDavid, Canada's best player might have to play against his countrymen alongside Americans in an ''international tournament'', can you imagine explaining this to people around the World. Just typing it sounds like embarassing, I hope this doesn't break a lot of publicity around the world, it obviously won't but it'll be ridiculed to oblivion.

Ding ding ding. This is a huge part of the problem with this tournament.

 

[cutchemist42]

The players are incredibly important. The Olympic tournament does not just automatically hold a high intrinsic value. There is a reason that Olympic soccer is not valued to nearly the same degree that the World Cup is... one has the world's best players, the other does not.

If you're going to harp on about the Olympics, you also cannot criticize the NHL for being corrupt. The NHL is acting stupidly, but it isn't particularly corrupt. The IOC is incredibly corrupt.



Ding ding ding. This is a huge part of the problem with this tournament.

I would compare what the NHL has done to some cities like Glendale as badly as what the IOC has done.

 

[JackSlater]

I would compare what the NHL has done to some cities like Glendale as badly as what the IOC has done.

I would love to see the comparison made. The NHL is stupidly clinging to Arizona, but that isn't in the same ballpark as what happened with even just the 2014 Olympics. No sports entity other than Fifa is close to the IOC in terms of corruption. The NHL has them surpassed in stupidity though.

 

[gib]

Connor McDavid, Canada's best player might have to play against his countrymen alongside Americans in an ''international tournament'', can you imagine explaining this to people around the World. Just typing it sounds like embarassing, I hope this doesn't break a lot of publicity around the world, it obviously won't but it'll be ridiculed to oblivion.

Yes, I think McDavid will do everything possible to make Canada lose.

 

[xxxx]

Nationalism is an important factor in an INTERNATIONAL tournament. This is being presented as an INTERNATIONAL even by the NHL. By definition, an INTERNATIONAL tournament is meant to be contested between NATIONS. The concept is incredibly simple for most people to understand.

While this is true, it's not like those two teams don't represent anything, or any nation. Team North America U-24 represents North America's young players. Team Europe still does, to some extent, represents Europe. Neither of Europe or NA are countries, but they are politically and geographically clearly separated territories, continents. I don't pretend this is a standard international tournament, of course I agree. But it's not like we're mixing together players like it's an NHL team, as some people here make it seem.



To all people here, I think the World Cup will actually get much more interest in european countries, and not only those who will be represented, than it would get otherwise. For the newspapers in France, Latvia, Norway, Germany, or Denamark, there would be basically no reason at all to mention this tournament when not having this european team. But there is a reason now. It may gather some interest that wouldn't get otherwise.


from nhl.com interviews:

"We're a part of Europe, and we're going to play for maybe a little bigger picture than for our country," Kopitar said. "And you know, of course, in one way you're still representing your country, and we're going to do it with pride."

Satan admitted that in a way Team Europe will be playing with house money as the underdog in this tournament because of the odd mashup of players from so many nations trying to come together as a competitive team in less than a month. He likes it that way.

"We certainly are not going to come here and play for just exhibition and let the other team beat us," Kopitar said. "We're going to come here to compete."

Firstly: I don't know what exactly you refer by "this stage" because this is not best-on-best. Not even all of the top-six teams involved will have their best rosters, if the tournament involves only NHLers. Therefore, this is NOT best-on-best. Try to understand.

First, players seem to think otherwise.
Second, from all the news and statements we get about WC, it's unlikely the KHL won't release their players. That statements come from the NHL, from european management teams, and also from V.Tretiak, the CEO of Russian Hockey Federation.

I've no doubt the players get to have some. But you also seem to hold high hopes that it will be serious, tooth-and-nails competitive hockey. And, well... thus far you'd be better off keeping those thoughts to yourself, because you really don't have a plenty to back them up. Just some wishful thinking.

"It's another chance to play on the biggest stage for hockey," Toews said. "A lot of players said Canada could have had two teams at the Olympics because the talent is so deep. You just never take a (roster) spot like that for granted. To have a chance to go to the World Cup would be awesome. You never want to pass up an opportunity like that to represent your country, especially on home soil."

"It's always an honour," said the Montreal Canadiens forward and alternate captain. (Plekanec) "It's very special. In 1998 the whole country was upside down when the Czechs won the Olympics. It was a great feeling. This (World Cup) is going to be very exciting. Being part of it would be a great accomplishment in your career."

"It would be an honor to play in the World Cup and play for Team Sweden," Landeskog continued. "It's hard to really take it all in, just what it means. I finally figured that out when we won the World Championship in 2013. There were a lot of people cheering us on."

"It's exciting," said the San Jose Sharks forward and alternate captain. "When you get to represent your country it’s a big honor, obviously. And then to get to these tournaments, you're going up against players you play against the whole year. It's fun to see their tendencies in practice and then you see that team on the other side (in international events) that's loaded. You definitely have to bring your 'A' game. It's exciting for us and it's exciting for the fans."

"Best on best is so rare, and when it happens it's truly special," said the New York Islanders captain, John Tavares. "It's created some of the greatest moments in hockey history."

Anyone saying this tournament doesn't hold prestige to players is dead wrong. Anyone saying they won't be putting a serious effort is dead wrong.

 

[roto]

NHLPA has committed to this tournament and its players' job to play in World Cup. They earn money by that. Players are obligated to play even in silly all-stars event, so it'd be odd if players would laugh publicly at this tournament. Players know what they're supposed to say.

Even if some players really want to play in World Cup like this, it tells nothing about prestigeness. It's also clear that top pro players play seriously whenever they step on ice in a real game - even in tournament like World Cup. The competitiveness can't be just turned off like a switch.

Going to WHC in spring tells more about what a NHL player 'want to do' than playing in pre-season tournament which is part of their job. Players can just decline invitation to WHC if they don't care to play there, but they can't do the same with World Cup.

 

[FiLe]

While this is true, it's not like those two teams don't represent anything, or any nation. Team North America U-24 represents North America's young players. Team Europe still does, to some extent, represents Europe. Neither of Europe or NA are countries, but they are politically and geographically clearly separated territories, continents. I don't pretend this is a standard international tournament, of course I agree. But it's not like we're mixing together players like it's an NHL team, as some people here make it seem.

Such a hollow, arbitrary statement. If the collection team is supposed to represent Europe, why do some parts of Europe get their own teams?

And either you're mixing players together, or you aren't. And this sure as heck ain't the latter.

To all people here, I think the World Cup will actually get much more interest in european countries, and not only those who will be represented, than it would get otherwise. For the newspapers in France, Latvia, Norway, Germany, or Denamark, there would be basically no reason at all to mention this tournament when not having this european team. But there is a reason now. It may gather some interest that wouldn't get otherwise.

Yeah, maybe this thing will get a column or two between all the soccer headlines. Like it's going to make a difference. Please, just please keep your trap shut if you're this clueless about the reception it will get in Europe.

First, players seems to think otherwise.
Second, from all the news and statements we get about WC, it's unlikely the KHL won't release their players. That statements come from the NHL, from european management teams, and also from V.Tretiak, the CEO of Russian Hockey Federation.

Player statement is not an argument, since when their opinions were collected, they didn't know yet if they're going to have the best teams possible or if the Euro leagues are pulling out. Or does the time not run linearly in that fantasy land you're living in? What next? You're going to quote the carefully positive comments from all the dissenters here from before the time all the details were out, to prove that hey, we actually like this thing too?

And all the people who've stated something about the participation of the Euro players are from the federation side. The people representing the leagues have said very little yet, but most of what has been said has not been positive.

Anyone saying this tournament doesn't hold prestige to players is dead wrong. Anyone saying they won't be putting a serious effort is dead wrong.

You can quote a million cookie-cutter responses and you aren't going to convince anyone it's nothing more than players going through the motions. But if that crow tastes good in your mouth, just keep swallowing it, little shill.

 

[JackSlater]

While this is true, it's not like those two teams don't represent anything, or any nation. Team North America U-24 represents North America's young players. Team Europe still does, to some extent, represents Europe. Neither of Europe or NA are countries, but they are politically and geographically clearly separated territories, continents. I don't pretend this is a standard international tournament, of course I agree. But it's not like we're mixing together players like it's an NHL team, as some people here make it seem.

They don't represent any nation. If they did, then the nation would be part of their team name. Team North American Young Gunz is even worse since those players could potentially play against their own nation. For the record, I do agree that in general the players will most likely try.

Please explain how it is significantly different from mixing together NHL teams. It's clearly just as idiotic.

NHLPA has committed to this tournament and its players' job to play in World Cup. They earn money by that. Players are obligated to play even in silly all-stars event, so it'd be odd if players would laugh publicly at this tournament. Players know what they're supposed to say.

Even if some players really want to play in World Cup like this, it tells nothing about prestigeness. It's also clear that top pro players play seriously whenever they step on ice in a real game - even in tournament like World Cup. The competitiveness can't be just turned off like a switch.

Going to WHC in spring tells more about what a NHL player 'want to do' than playing in pre-season tournament which is part of their job. Players can just decline invitation to WHC if they don't care to play there, but they can't do the same with World Cup.

Players have opted out of Canada/World Cups in the past in some instances. Ray Bourque for example. I doubt that they will be fully forced to participate.

 

[xxxx]

Such a hollow, arbitrary statement. If the collection team is supposed to represent Europe, why do some parts of Europe get their own teams?

And either you're mixing players together, or you aren't. And this sure as heck ain't the latter.

Yeah, maybe this thing will get a column or two between all the soccer headlines. Like it's going to make a difference. Please, just please keep your trap shut if you're this clueless about the reception it will get in Europe.

Player statement is not an argument, since when their opinions were collected, they didn't know yet if they're going to have the best teams possible or if the Euro leagues are pulling out. Or does the time not run linearly in that fantasy land you're living in? What next? You're going to quote the carefully positive comments from all the dissenters here from before the time all the details were out, to prove that hey, we actually like this thing too?

And all the people who've stated something about the participation of the Euro players are from the federation side. The people representing the leagues have said very little yet, but most of what has been said has not been positive.

You can quote a million cookie-cutter responses and you aren't going to convince anyone it's nothing more than players going through the motions. But if that crow tastes good in your mouth, just keep swallowing it, little shill.

So, to sum up, I have, btw, actually actual interviews of players that support my beliefs, while you have nothing just a wishful thinking, but it's me who lives in a fantasy land Got ya.

I'm done here. I won't bother any longer. Even if the players actually played "tooth-and-nails competitive, serious hockey", I'm sure you will find a way to dicredit the tournament and say that, after all, to players it means nothing. have a good day.



Btw, the players' statements are from nhl.com, you can find that there, and it's from 9/9 this year, they all already knew all the details.

 

[xxxx]

NHLPA has committed to this tournament and its players' job to play in World Cup. They earn money by that. Players are obligated to play even in silly all-stars event, so it'd be odd if players would laugh publicly at this tournament. Players know what they're supposed to say.

While you are right that it would be dumb to play at a tournament you publicly ridicule, don't you think it's as dumb to think that players will hate it and at the same time they'll be putting serious effort? That quite doesn't match, no? Either we'll see boring hockey like an All-Star game as you said, or we see serious hockey with effort and competitivness. If the latter is true, some suggestion that they find this tournament a joke too, would get quite nonsenscial parameters then, unless you are a mind-reader and they are great actors when they really celebrate each goal and winning game.



Going to WHC in spring tells more about what a NHL player 'want to do' than playing in pre-season tournament which is part of their job. Players can just decline invitation to WHC if they don't care to play there, but they can't do the same with World Cup.

Of course, when you're a player, why wouldn't you want to play against the best? You think some player would want to decline an invitation to represent Canada, or Sweden, or Russia when they know all the best players will be there?
And also, we've seen a few times players in Canada Cup history that declined.



And how are you so sure the players are just telling the media what they are "supposed to say"? Do you have anything other than you personal opinion to back that up? You have to be a mind-reader or be in a direct conctact with many of them

 

[FiLe]

So, to sum up, I have, btw, actually actual interviews of players that support my beliefs, while you have nothing just a wishful thinking, but it's me who lives in a fantasy land Got ya.

Uh, the title of this thread, the statements quoted in the opening post? They sure don't support this narrative.

And you DO live in a fantasy land if you just buy the player statements at face value. It's funny that you say "we don't know what they're supposed to say" when YOU don't know any better. It's an argument neither of us should be using. But we're only using it because YOU used it first. And now you're trying to turn the tables on us? The gall.

Hey look, I can post sarcasm smilies too and pretend I have actual arguments. Does this mean I win?


A rhetorical question... what does a believer point at when you ask him what supports his beliefs? The Bible.

 

[roto]

Of course, when you're a player, why wouldn't you want to play against the best? You think some player would want to decline an invitation to represent Canada, or Sweden, or Russia when they know all the best players will be there?
And also, we've seen a few times players in Canada Cup history that declined.

And how are you so sure the players are just telling the media what they are "supposed to say"? Do you have anything other than you personal opinion to back that up? You have to be a mind-reader or be in a direct conctact with many of them

Players can play against the best in at least 82 games per season, so there's little new for them in that. That could be extra motivation for players playing outside NHL, but this tournament is about NHL and its players.

Yes, players have declined from Canada Cup and Olympics. Saku Koivu declined from Sochi tournament even though he knew the best players were there, it was the Olympics and he was an athlete member of IOC. If having best players can't lure all players in, how does a gimmicky tournament with non-national teams help in that? We don't know if players are saying what they mean, but we know that at least they can't directly discredit the tournament. NHL.com would never publish any negative comments about the World Cup, which is an NHL product.

I don't think many players have need to decline from World Cup, because it's their job, it helps them to make money, they'd have NHL pre-season anyway and players usually want to play ice hockey. It's a different thing how they value the tournament, but surely they're much more interested in this than the all-stars weekend, and it may just be good if there's no need to take losses so seriously.

 

[usahockey22flyers]

Late to this thread, but Europe is very culturally different.

Gimmick tourny.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Yeah... they don't. You prove the point again about the quality of your points by going back to something you are wrong about. There is no #1 defenceman on that team, and all of their goaltenders are currently AHL goaltenders. You see, most posters are able to recognize when they are demonstrably wrong and at least try something different.

Connor Hellebuyck was outstanding in the last WHC right?

Fuclae is an outstanding goalie with plenty of international experience as well but he isn't better than Carey Price so yes he is in the AHL, not NHL right now.

Seth Jones already has a best Dman award at the WHC under his wings. Ryan Murray and Morgan Reilly are pretty much tracking as #1 Dmen by the end of the season as well.

Finland doesn't have a "true #1 NHL Dman either so I guess that will hurt their competitive factor in the tournament as well right?

It's not rocket science the argument that the U23 team doesn't have a true #1 dman is just so extremely weak when anyone compares that teams defense to Finland or the next 2 nations that might make this tournament if literal national parameters were followed.

in fact it's such a weak argument if one looks at it and ranking all of the defenses and goalies of all teams in the tournament (with Slovakia and the Swiss being included in those rankings then U23 is hardly last)

Apparently you don't know what parroting means. You are the self proclaimed rebel who mindlessly just repeats what the NHL told you to think, regardless of how brainless their excuses are. Yes, the NHL has the right to do this. No one has questioned that, as you have been informed numerous times. The NHL having the right to do it does not make it any less idiotic. Of course, when someone needs the NHL to tell them how to think they perhaps cannot recognize that.

So basically if one has an opinion that disagrees with yours they are just mindlessly parroting the NHL line?

It doesn't change the fact that most people would view the 2 non traditional teams as much stronger entries than Slovakia and the Swiss which is probably more important in terms of competition and trying to sell tickets.

I couldn't care less what the NHL does to make money. No one outside of NHL owners or NHL players should care... unless of course said person is just parroting the NHL. As a fan, I only care about the quality of the hockey product, which is exactly what is being hurt. It's mind numbing that random fans would bother defending this idiocy in the name of the NHL's profits, when those fans don't benefit at all from those profits (and are unable to prove that additional profits will even be made).

Opponents of your view don't care either if the NHL makes money or not it's a simple observation.

Most business entities, and the NHL is one, do things in their best interests and to state the obvious isn't parroting or having any judgement one way or another on the NHL simply a logical observation.

If you think there is a business (or hockey interest case) case for having the Swiss and Slovaks over the other 2 teams present your case

That isn't the bottom line - it is just your assumption. Many people assume otherwise. Other than deciding to be an NHL lapdog I cannot imagine why a fan would care how big the viewership is for the tournament. Not that there is any reason to think that the gimmick will affect viewership significantly in either direction.

Once again make the case that the Slovak and Swiss teams would be more competitive and generate more interest than the other 2 teams with McDavid and company.

Good luck at that one as it is clearly a losing proposition in any hockey sense.

And the nonsensical argument that these players won't give it their best doesn't have any factual basis at all.

That's pretty obvious in the last part we will get to here.

Yeah, what is "tradition" anyway? What does "international" mean? Who knows these things?

traditions simply change, nothing stays the same those who are so adamant about the past have no sense for the future.

I personally loved the non NHL amateur Canadian teams of my youth for the Olympics but those days are long gone.

I suspect most Canadian fans feel the current rosters and format for the Olympics are better.

[/QUOTE]I assume hockey fans will support this tournament, in spite of its idiotic nature. People in Canada love hockey and will support it, obviously. The rest of the world will ignore this tournament, and as has been told to you numerous times, the idiotic gimmicks are part of the reason in Europe at least.[/QUOTE]

Let's have the tournament play out and if the rest of the world "supports it or not" isn't really relevant it isn't the Olympics.

Nationalism is an important factor in an INTERNATIONAL tournament. This is being presented as an INTERNATIONAL even by the NHL. By definition, an INTERNATIONAL tournament is meant to be contested between NATIONS. The concept is incredibly simple for most people to understand.

Once again the NHL has it's own parameters and they are different for this tournament than the Olympics or WHC, get over it.

I'm not surprised that you don't see how that situation, which is actually also pretty stupid (though not on the level of this tournament) is not all that similar. Those players are still representing their country. Players on the gimmick teams are not representing their country in a supposedly international tournament, and in fact may end up playing against a team that is actually representing their country.

the point is that there is zero proof that any of those Canadian kids are playing less hard than they would for a united team Canada so try another argument.

the teams in the U17 tournament aren't strictly representing their country they are playing for that current team in the tournament and pretty much all players at that high of a level and those in the NHL World Cup will play for professional pride and do their best to suggest otherwise simply has no strong argument supporting it.

 

[Hardyvan123]

"Best on best" does not refer to the overall player quality. It refers to all participants being able to use the best possible rosters available to them. And some countries depend on Euro players to equal or close-to-equal measure as they do on NHLers. And even without Slovakia and Switzerland in, that fact will be felt in the World Cup too if Russia, Finland and the Czech Rep don't have access to some of the Euro players they depend on.

But again, I can see you don't care about that. And it's still cool. You just should stop crapping on people who do care about it. We're already being crapped on by the NHL (and even if they have the right to do so, we still don't have to like it) so you don't have to add to that.

You do realize that the bolded argument is a better description of the WHC than then the world cup that you are criticizing right?

The irony is funny as well.

but that is what happens when emotion overtakes logic.

 

[JackSlater]

Connor Hellebuyck was outstanding in the last WHC right?

So? He is also an AHL goaltender. A solid handful of games in a tournament a level or two below best on best doesn't mean that much to me. Sample size is too small.

Fuclae is an outstanding goalie with plenty of international experience as well but he isn't better than Carey Price so yes he is in the AHL, not NHL right now.

Fucale is not an outstanding goaltender at the moment, and all of his international experience is against junior players. Big deal. It's a weird name to bring up considering most people don't even consider him a contender to get picked for the team.

Seth Jones already has a best Dman award at the WHC under his wings. Ryan Murray and Morgan Reilly are pretty much tracking as #1 Dmen by the end of the season as well.

Good for Jones. Had a good tournament in a year when scarcely any Olympians showed up. He joins stalwarts like Petteri Nummelin and Daniel Tjarnqvist who have done the exact same thing. Rielly and Murray have loads of potential, unquestionably. Would I want players striving to be the top defencemen (but not quite there yet) on the worst teams in the NHL for my top defencemen? Not yet.

Finland doesn't have a "true #1 NHL Dman either so I guess that will hurt their competitive factor in the tournament as well right?

Yes, it does hurt Finland. Obviously Finland would be a much more competitive team with a legitimate number 1 defenceman. As has been explained to you numerous times though, Finland at least has a proven system in place (YoungGunz do not) and proven chemistry (YoungGunz do not) and experience (YoungGunz do not) that enables them to be successful.

It's not rocket science the argument that the U23 team doesn't have a true #1 dman is just so extremely weak when anyone compares that teams defense to Finland or the next 2 nations that might make this tournament if literal national parameters were followed.

in fact it's such a weak argument if one looks at it and ranking all of the defenses and goalies of all teams in the tournament (with Slovakia and the Swiss being included in those rankings then U23 is hardly last)

It's a fact that they don't have a number one defenceman, not an argument. The Slovakian issue has been mentioned - much like the Young Gunz, they would not be competitive, and part of it is that they don't have a high end defenceman. I think most would prefer the prospect of a player of Chara's calibre pulling it all together for a short tournament (a situation that has happened plenty of times internationally) to any of the Young Gunz taking on a role they've never had at the top level before.

Funny that you mentioned Switzerland when they have Josi, a superior defenceman to anyone the Young Gunz can use.

So basically if one has an opinion that disagrees with yours they are just mindlessly parroting the NHL line?

Nope, apparently you still do not understand what "parroting" means despite having it explained to you. You keep repeating the mindless excuses the NHL uses - hence you are parroting them. It has nothing to do with disagreeing with me.

It doesn't change the fact that most people would view the 2 non traditional teams as much stronger entries than Slovakia and the Swiss which is probably more important in terms of competition and trying to sell tickets.

Your speculation, which is certainly not a fact, about what most people think is irrelevant. The argument over competitiveness has been done, and neither side can be conclusively proven. What is proven is that Slovakia and Switzerland are reasonably competitive in actual best on best tournaments, and are actually nations, which is necessary for an international tournament. Also, I'm sure that the NHL is happy that you are concerned about ticket sales for their tournament. How rebellious of you to concern yourself with the finances of the tournament organizer.

Opponents of your view don't care either if the NHL makes money or not it's a simple observation.

Most business entities, and the NHL is one, do things in their best interests and to state the obvious isn't parroting or having any judgement one way or another on the NHL simply a logical observation.

If you think there is a business (or hockey interest case) case for having the Swiss and Slovaks over the other 2 teams present your case

These people, yourself included, have repeatedly used speculative ticket sales as evidence of the NHL doing the right thing - clearly implying that NHL ticket sales are a factor that they care about in this tournament. Ticket sales are completely irrelevant. The games on the ice matter, not how much profit the NHL makes.

I highly doubt that including Slovakia/Switzerland/Young Gunz/Euro Leftovers will make a difference business wise at all. The tournament will sell seats because it is in Toronto, where all hockey tickets sell easily, and the tournament will be watched in Canada and basically ignored everywhere else. The hockey reasons have been laid out for you repeatedly by myself and several others, and if you legitimately cannot comprehend what it is then I'm not going to bother repeating it in the face of seemingly insurmountable cognitive issues.

Once again make the case that the Slovak and Swiss teams would be more competitive and generate more interest than the other 2 teams with McDavid and company.

Good luck at that one as it is clearly a losing proposition in any hockey sense.

And the nonsensical argument that these players won't give it their best doesn't have any factual basis at all.

That's pretty obvious in the last part we will get to here.

Since I am not an NHL shill I can recognize that generating interest/profits for the NHL is irrelevant for a fan. A lapdog might be concerned with that, I suppose, which is their right. The hockey argument has been made repeatedly for you. You seemingly lack the ability to comprehend it if you are honestly asking to see it again. It's been made. Repeatedly.

traditions simply change, nothing stays the same those who are so adamant about the past have no sense for the future.

I personally loved the non NHL amateur Canadian teams of my youth for the Olympics but those days are long gone.

I suspect most Canadian fans feel the current rosters and format for the Olympics are better.

This is completely irrelevant. I am very glad that NHLers are now allowed to participate in the Olympics, because not having NHLers was idiotic. I guarantee that 99% of the people against this idiotic format are glad to have NHLers in the Olympics, as many have said in this thread... thus making your point once again beyond irrelevant. The issue isn't preserving tradition for the sake of preserving tradition - it is that the change is idiotic. This has been repeated for you already, so I don't know why you waste time discussing it again when people have already told you that the issue isn't about blindly preserving tradition.

Let's have the tournament play out and if the rest of the world "supports it or not" isn't really relevant it isn't the Olympics.

I agree that it isn't relevant - which is why I, unlike those who parrot the NHL, am not focusing on ticket sales as if ticket sales justify idiocy.

Once again the NHL has it's own parameters and they are different for this tournament than the Olympics or WHC, get over it.

Guess what - no matter how much you may love the NHL and repeat what they tell you to, the NHL does not get to set the parameters of what an international tournament is. An INTERNATIONAL tournament must by definition be played between NATIONS. That's a fact, regardless of what the NHL hopes fans will be gullible enough to believe.

the point is that there is zero proof that any of those Canadian kids are playing less hard than they would for a united team Canada so try another argument.

the teams in the U17 tournament aren't strictly representing their country they are playing for that current team in the tournament and pretty much all players at that high of a level and those in the NHL World Cup will play for professional pride and do their best to suggest otherwise simply has no strong argument supporting it.

Common sense is the argument. Outside of math and history there is basically nothing that we can conclusively prove. Would the Canadian players on the Young Gunz play just as hard to beat Canada as they would against a country they weren't from? They can't even prove team Canada "wrong" since they weren't eligible to play for Canada in the first place.

Anyway, if you wish to continue the discussion, my request is that you at least try to remember/comprehend what has already been posted, instead of asking to see it again.

 

[FiLe]

You do realize that the bolded argument is a better description of the WHC than then the world cup that you are criticizing right?

Except... when has anyone ever claimed that WHC is best-on-best?

I'm well aware of that tournament's limitations. But there clearly are people who don't realize those of the World Cup if there won't be euro players. So there *is* irony in there, not just where you think it is. But I guess that's nothing new by now.