Puck Daddy: Team Europe World Cup players frustrated with format

[Hardyvan123]

Should we replace Iceland at Euro 2016 for Barcelona?

Why would they?

And what has the Eruo 2016's have to do with an NHL tournament?

 

[Hardyvan123]

Last time I checked, McDavid was listed as Canadian. If he's that great, he should be playing for Team Canada. There's no need to create a bogus team to get him in and ruin the legitimacy of the tournament as a best-on-best for national teams. If Sweden manages to beat Canada in the final, the achievement will lose some of its prestige because Canada wasn't able to pick its players freely due to an asinine age limit.

what a ridiculous argument?

If any any game a team beats the other team they celebrate the victory plain and simple?

If New Jersey had won the SC in 00-01 when Foppa was out do you think that nay New Jersey player would even stop for a second and think "man it's not a real SC victory because Foppa was out?

The hysteria over an NHL tournament is bordering on asinine here.

People can be upset about the format but to then they go to ridiculous lengths to make arguments that don't make any sense to justify their outrage.

Heck the 2 non traditional teams could meet in the finals and the opponents would still insist that Slovakia and Switzerland would have been more competitive right?

 

[FiLe]

Why would they?

Because Barcelona's roster is better. It's the very same rhetoric that's being used to sideline legit NTs from this tournament and replace them with collection teams.

what a ridiculous argument?

If any any game a team beats the other team they celebrate the victory plain and simple?

If New Jersey had won the SC in 00-01 when Foppa was out do you think that nay New Jersey player would even stop for a second and think "man it's not a real SC victory because Foppa was out?

You don't see the distinction between a player not being available due to an injury and not being available because of a completely artificial, made-up restriction? One is legit reason because no one can help it, the other is pure bogus.

People can be upset about the format but to then they go to ridiculous lengths to make arguments that don't make any sense to justify their outrage.

If we are to consider alternate explanations, perhaps some people just can't grasp said arguments because they don't possess the necessary mental acuity and/or education of the topic to do so...

Not referring to anyone in particular here. God's honest truth.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Because Barcelona's roster is better. It's the very same rhetoric that's being used to sideline legit NTs from this tournament and replace them with collection teams.

It's an apples and oranges comparison plain and simple and doesn't translate very well to an NHL tournament.

You don't see the distinction between a player not being available due to an injury and not being available because of a completely artificial, made-up restriction? One is legit reason because no one can help it, the other is pure bogus.

So injuries are the only legit reason?

What about when coaches go to tournaments and leave off obviously better players for favorites or players decline to go the WHC like Bourque and Patrick Roy did?

The obvious example is the world junior championships every year where Canada never sends it's absolute best team because of players in the NHL.

Ddo teams that win against Canada in that situation ever stop and think man we didn't really deserve it?

Do teams that win, go well we can't really appreciate the victory because certain players were missing?

That's complete an utter nonsense, Do you have quotes on players ever saying that anywhere?

I look forward to the Olympics, aside from the South Korea games which will be an absolute joke BTW and I look forward to this tournament because it is novel and different.

Obviously others, like yourself won't, but perhaps stop and think rationally before making such unsupportable arguments as to why the NA U23's can't be competitive.

 

[FiLe]

It's an apples and oranges comparison plain and simple and doesn't translate very well to an NHL tournament.

They call the World Cup an "international" tournament. Euro 2016 is called an international tournament too. But only one of them is a tournament that will involve nothing but national teams (and they don't even consider doing anything about that), the other has bogus collection teams.

Ergo one of them is what they say it is, the other is not. It's perfectly valid rhetoric.

So injuries are the only legit reason?

I said "one" reason, not "only". It'd be nice if you just once actually understood what is being said before typing a response.

What about when coaches go to tournaments and leave off obviously better players for favorites or players decline to go the WHC like Bourque and Patrick Roy did?

The obvious example is the world junior championships every year where Canada never sends it's absolute best team because of players in the NHL.

More utterly asinine comparisons. In both of these cases, the team staff elects to leave players out, or the players decline themselves, or the players are occupied elsewhere. It's not written in the tournament rules that they can't represent their country. Or, more specifically, they can only represent if an all-star squad they saw fit to include doesn't see any use for them. The World Cup has such a rule in place, and it should not come as a surprise to anybody why people criticize it.

Obviously others, like yourself won't, but perhaps stop and think rationally before making such unsupportable arguments as to why the NA U23's can't be competitive.

We're not argumenting against the bogus teams' competitiveness. We're arguing about how their existence hurts the prospects of taking this tournament seriously.

Plain and simple: If they call it "international", they should involve national teams and nothing else. It doesn't matter if the artificial teams invited for the purposes of the tournament are somehow more competitive than some of the nations left out (which they are not), you just can't call it "international" if you include them. Call it the "NHL Late Summer Gathering" or whatever and market it as such.

But, for the love of god, don't call it "an international best-on-best hockey tournament", pretend it actually is one, and later on, use it as a handy excuse to pull out of the Olympics because you've seemingly come up with a perfect replacement.

 

[stars33]

Hardyvan who is going to root for team Euro leftover and the baby americans?

I am a Islander fan and I love beating the Rangers more than any other team? Because i hate there fans. I have to work with them everyday.
Think of the best rivalries in sports. And it is not the players who make the rivalry, players come and go. It is passionate fans that make a great rivalry. Now with international play there are also great rivalries USA v Canada, Finland v Sweden, Czech v Slovakia, Germany v Switzerland and any team v Russia. My point is the two fake teams have no fan base just like Team chara and team foligno. The competitiveness is one element of a great tournament passion is another. There will be no passion in the stands when those two fake teams play. The game will feel like an All-star game. These games are devoid of emotion.
Do you really think that Islander and Devils fans would have the same emotion and passion for a combined team to play against the Rangers. As ridiculous as this sounds this is what you are defending with team Euro leftover.

 

[JackSlater]

Why would they?

And what has the Eruo 2016's have to do with an NHL tournament?

It's parallel reasoning. Using the same logic in a different example. Putting a random non-national team into an "international" tournament in order to increase the talent level, all while taking away some players from their actual national teams. Essentially the same thing as what the NHL is doing. It's pretty simple to grasp.

Would you be in favour of the Stanley Cup champs from the 2016 playoffs being dropped into this tournament? If not, why?

If we are to consider alternate explanations, perhaps some people just can't grasp said arguments because they don't possess the necessary mental acuity and/or education of the topic to do so...

Not referring to anyone in particular here. God's honest truth.

Clearly an issue here.

Hardyvan who is going to root for team Euro leftover and the baby americans?

I am a Islander fan and I love beating the Rangers more than any other team? Because i hate there fans. I have to work with them everyday.
Think of the best rivalries in sports. And it is not the players who make the rivalry, players come and go. It is passionate fans that make a great rivalry. Now with international play there are also great rivalries USA v Canada, Finland v Sweden, Czech v Slovakia, Germany v Switzerland and any team v Russia. My point is the two fake teams have no fan base just like Team chara and team foligno. The competitiveness is one element of a great tournament passion is another. There will be no passion in the stands when those two fake teams play. The game will feel like an All-star game. These games are devoid of emotion.
Do you really think that Islander and Devils fans would have the same emotion and passion for a combined team to play against the Rangers. As ridiculous as this sounds this is what you are defending with team Euro leftover.

Somehow the people defending this nonsense don't see how it is the same thing as combining two random, crappy NHL teams for the playoffs.

 

[Lepardi]

If New Jersey had won the SC in 00-01 when Foppa was out do you think that nay New Jersey player would even stop for a second and think "man it's not a real SC victory because Foppa was out?

You clearly don't understand that this has nothing to do with injuries. If the NHL had said that Forsberg can't play in the finals because he's too young to represent Colorado in a Stanley Cup final, then I certainly would think that the Cup would lose some of its prestige because of an idiotic rule like that.

 

[Lepardi]

Hardyvan who is going to root for team Euro leftover and the baby americans?

He probably thinks that people in Slovakia, Switzerland, Germany, France, Latvia, Denmark, Norway, Austria and Slovenia will be rooting for Team Leftovers. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't feel this way if he actually knew anything about Europe. But for him and many Americans it almost seems to be a source of pride that they don't know one single thing about Europe.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Hardyvan who is going to root for team Euro leftover and the baby americans?

I am a Islander fan and I love beating the Rangers more than any other team? Because i hate there fans. I have to work with them everyday.
Think of the best rivalries in sports. And it is not the players who make the rivalry, players come and go. It is passionate fans that make a great rivalry. Now with international play there are also great rivalries USA v Canada, Finland v Sweden, Czech v Slovakia, Germany v Switzerland and any team v Russia. My point is the two fake teams have no fan base just like Team chara and team foligno. The competitiveness is one element of a great tournament passion is another. There will be no passion in the stands when those two fake teams play. The game will feel like an All-star game. These games are devoid of emotion.
Do you really think that Islander and Devils fans would have the same emotion and passion for a combined team to play against the Rangers. As ridiculous as this sounds this is what you are defending with team Euro leftover.

There is seldom the type of passion in the stands for international games and tournaments that you speak of for NHL games.

There is always a home team but the actual number of Swiss or Slovak fans that would come to Toronto is so limited it is basically non existent.

I'm Canadian but also a hockey fan and often watch games with no personal (or national stake in them and enjoy them.

The tournament being in Toronto will have alot more MCDavid, Eichel, Domi fans than would be the case for Swiss or Slovak fans.

 

[Lepardi]

There is seldom the type of passion in the stands for international games and tournaments that you speak of for NHL games.

If you think NHL games have "passion" in the stands, you've obviously never seen actual fan culture. It looks something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHTqSctPCb8

NHL certainly has its merits because the quality of hockey is way above any other league in the world, but when it comes to atmosphere, it's totally inferior to leagues like SEL, DEL and NLA in Europe.

 

[Hardyvan123]

You clearly don't understand that this has nothing to do with injuries. If the NHL had said that Forsberg can't play in the finals because he's too young to represent Colorado in a Stanley Cup final, then I certainly would think that the Cup would lose some of its prestige because of an idiotic rule like that.

Why any player is missing from a lineup is besides the point.

The OP made a comment about the winners somehow not savoring it as much because of Canada not having McDavid.

My bet is that the team that wins the tournament will savoir the victory with no asterisk and that a lot of people here don't understand the compete level of the players involved.

Before the NHL teams used to pick up players for the SC, did the other players on those teams not enjoy the sweetness of victory because a ringer had been brought in?

 

[Hardyvan123]

If you think NHL games have "passion" in the stands, you've obviously never seen actual fan culture. It looks something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96Hm1jTE6NE

NHL certainly has its merits because the quality of hockey is way above any other league in the world, but when it comes to atmosphere, it's totally inferior to leagues like SEL, DEL and NLA in Europe.

Perhaps you should bring this up with the OP who talked about real fan culture in the new York area?

Real fan culture?

I admit that the Vancouver crowd is rather corporate but Vancouver is a lousy sports town and it is a Canuck town.

During the summer months fans are passionate about the signing of a fourth line center and other sports that are popular here, like soccer and football get 2nd fiddle to the Canucks all year round.

The tournament is being held in Toronto which is another hockey hotbed for those that don't know.

 

[Lepardi]

The tournament being in Toronto will have alot more MCDavid, Eichel, Domi fans than would be the case for Swiss or Slovak fans.

After seeing about 8 NHL games from McDavid, I can say that I love to watch him play. That's why I think it's a disgrace he doesn't get to play for Team Canada in this World Cup, but has to play for a bogus team instead.

 

[Hardyvan123]

They call the World Cup an "international" tournament. Euro 2016 is called an international tournament too. But only one of them is a tournament that will involve nothing but national teams (and they don't even consider doing anything about that), the other has bogus collection teams.

Ergo one of them is what they say it is, the other is not. It's perfectly valid rhetoric.

I said "one" reason, not "only". It'd be nice if you just once actually understood what is being said before typing a response.

More utterly asinine comparisons. In both of these cases, the team staff elects to leave players out, or the players decline themselves, or the players are occupied elsewhere. It's not written in the tournament rules that they can't represent their country. Or, more specifically, they can only represent if an all-star squad they saw fit to include doesn't see any use for them. The World Cup has such a rule in place, and it should not come as a surprise to anybody why people criticize it.

We're not argumenting against the bogus teams' competitiveness. We're arguing about how their existence hurts the prospects of taking this tournament seriously.

Plain and simple: If they call it "international", they should involve national teams and nothing else. It doesn't matter if the artificial teams invited for the purposes of the tournament are somehow more competitive than some of the nations left out (which they are not), you just can't call it "international" if you include them. Call it the "NHL Late Summer Gathering" or whatever and market it as such.

But, for the love of god, don't call it "an international best-on-best hockey tournament", pretend it actually is one, and later on, use it as a handy excuse to pull out of the Olympics because you've seemingly come up with a perfect replacement.

So basically all of this boils down to one simple thing right?

You don't like the format of the tournament and can't find anything positive about it.

The thing is that the NHL is operating a business and the tournament is to make money and more people will pay for (both in the stands and on NA TV) a NAU23 team and a rest of Europe Team with all NHL content rather than the national teams of the 7 and 8th best teams in the world.

And yes obviously I'm just saying this because Bettman told me to , not because it makes obvious business sense right?

 

[Lepardi]

The tournament is being held in Toronto which is another hockey hotbed for those that don't know.

Toronto is a hockey hotbed, but I've watched enough Maple Leafs games in my time to know that the atmosphere at the Air Canada Centre absolutely sucks compared to the atmosphere of many Swedish, Swiss and German teams. North Americans are just not into creating a great atmosphere like those AIK fans from Stockholm for instance. Americans like to concentrate on watching the game instead of singing and shouting, and when they do shout, it's always the same boring "Let's go hometeam" and "referee/opposing team's star player sucks" with mild variations.

I'm not saying Canadians are not passionate about hockey, the passion just doesn't show when you go to a game there. Showing your passion is not a part of the North American sporting culture the way it is in many European countries.

 

[Hardyvan123]

He probably thinks that people in Slovakia, Switzerland, Germany, France, Latvia, Denmark, Norway, Austria and Slovenia will be rooting for Team Leftovers. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't feel this way if he actually knew anything about Europe. But for him and many Americans it almost seems to be a source of pride that they don't know one single thing about Europe.

Don't pretend to talk about what I know about Europe here or confuse what this tournament is.

It's an NHL tournament and it caters to those that follow the NHL.

In all of the countries you mentioned Football (or soccer as it is called in North america) is about 10X more important on the sports scene and in the national psyches of these countries.

 

[FiLe]

So basically all of this boils down to one simple thing right?

You don't like the format of the tournament and can't find anything positive about it.

It boils down to a rather simple thing really. I don't like the tournament (no... you could say I absolutely detest it) because of the two gimmick teams. Replace them with a pair of actual NTs and you wouldn't hear a peep from me. Most likely I would tune in and watch then.

If you ask me for more details, as in, why don't I like the gimmicks, you'll soon see that turn into a long and detailed list. And I seem to have no issues presenting these points to most of people and getting them to see it. But then there are a some who just don't seem to see it no matter what...

And even with them, I don't really demand them to agree with me. It'd be just fine if they'd see why I might think the way I think and then leave it at that. I mean, if the things that bother me don't bother you, go ahead and enjoy the tournament. But at least try to work out why they might bother me (and numerous others) instead of figuring we're just a bunch of asinine busybodies. We already have Bettman & his cohorts for that.

The thing is that the NHL is operating a business and the tournament is to make money and more people will pay for (both in the stands and on NA TV) a NAU23 team and a rest of Europe Team with all NHL content rather than the national teams of the 7 and 8th best teams in the world.

Now you're telling me the NHL is putting the money before the sport?
...well, no skit.

But let's clarify something: Are you implying here it's the reason one is not allowed to criticize the tournament?

 

[Lepardi]

In all of the countries you mentioned Football (or soccer as it is called in North america) is about 10X more important on the sports scene and in the national psyches of these countries.

Quod erat demonstrandum. You think football is about 10 times more important than hockey in Latvia and in France? Where exactly did you get this information from? I know it doesn't come from Latvian or French people. The fact that you think the relation between hockey and football is even remotely similar in Latvia and France just proves my point. That's about as delusional as saying that "the NFL is about 10 times more important than the NHL in both USA and Canada".

 

[FiLe]

Quod erat demonstrandum. You think football is about 10 times more important than hockey in Latvia and in France? Where exactly did you get this information from? I know it doesn't come from Latvian or French people. The fact that you think the relation between hockey and football is even remotely similar in Latvia and France just proves my point. That's about as delusional as saying that "the NFL is about 10 times more important than the NHL in both USA and Canada".

To be fair...

He probably thinks that people in Slovakia, Switzerland, Germany, France, Latvia, Denmark, Norway, Austria and Slovenia will be rooting for Team Leftovers. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't feel this way if he actually knew anything about Europe. But for him and many Americans it almost seems to be a source of pride that they don't know one single thing about Europe.

...this was a pretty badly put together straw man. Hardyvan might test our patience in many things, but I don't think he has actually ever argued that Team Leftovers is going to gain any popularity in Europe. He simply seems to figure that as long as the team is more interesting in the eyes of the NA audience than SVK and SUI, things are kosher.

There was this other guy, however, who made comments like that. But since he's seemingly not part of the current round, let's just let that dog sleep.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Toronto is a hockey hotbed, but I've watched enough Maple Leafs games in my time to know that the atmosphere at the Air Canada Centre absolutely sucks compared to the atmosphere of many Swedish, Swiss and German teams. North Americans are just not into creating a great atmosphere like those AIK fans from Stockholm for instance. Americans like to concentrate on watching the game instead of singing and shouting, and when they do shout, it's always the same boring "Let's go hometeam" and "referee/opposing team's star player sucks" with mild variations.

I'm not saying Canadians are not passionate about hockey, the passion just doesn't show when you go to a game there. Showing your passion is not a part of the North American sporting culture the way it is in many European countries.

I'm not what anyone would call a "passionate fan" in that sense, I tend to watch most games in a scout like way.

 

[Hardyvan123]

It boils down to a rather simple thing really. I don't like the tournament (no... you could say I absolutely detest it) because of the two gimmick teams. Replace them with a pair of actual NTs and you wouldn't hear a peep from me. Most likely I would tune in and watch then.

If you ask me for more details, as in, why don't I like the gimmicks, you'll soon see that turn into a long and detailed list. And I seem to have no issues presenting these points to most of people and getting them to see it. But then there are a some who just don't seem to see it no matter what...

And even with them, I don't really demand them to agree with me. It'd be just fine if they'd see why I might think the way I think and then leave it at that. I mean, if the things that bother me don't bother you, go ahead and enjoy the tournament. But at least try to work out why they might bother me (and numerous others) instead of figuring we're just a bunch of asinine busybodies. We already have Bettman & his cohorts for that.

Now you're telling me the NHL is putting the money before the sport?
...well, no skit.

But let's clarify something: Are you implying here it's the reason one is not allowed to criticize the tournament?

sure one can criticize anything right?

but the thing is that the criticism of not having national teams is and should be different in the criticism of how competitive the non traditional teams are going to be or not be when compared to the actual situation and status of the national teams of Switzerland and Slovakia.

People often argue the experience versus the skill and athleticism of youth and we get to see this in a tournament format which is different than the Olympics.

My sense of purity about nationalism isn't offended enough to not what this tournament as I think it will offer a different and unique competition with the 2 non traditional teams, which IMO are better able to compete with the top national teams in this tournament.

 

[Canuckistani]

The tournament being in Toronto will have alot more MCDavid, Eichel, Domi fans than would be the case for Swiss or Slovak fans.

Are you a hockey fan or an NHL exective?

If you're a fan then the credibility and fareness of the event should mean something to you.

But instead all I'm hearing are reasons why you think enough people in Toronto will be dumb enough to pay for it, thus its a great format.

 

[Lepardi]

My sense of purity about nationalism isn't offended enough to not what this tournament as I think it will offer a different and unique competition with the 2 non traditional teams, which IMO are better able to compete with the top national teams in this tournament.

Wouldn't Sweden, Finland and Russia also be better able to compete against Canada, if you put them all together? Why should Finland play in this tournament, when the roster is absolute garbage compared to Canada?

 

[1Gold Standard]

I'm not what anyone would call a "passionate fan" in that sense, I tend to watch most games in a scout like way.

ya, and imo, that' a lot of what is wrong with today's game, so called "fans" who like to make believe and play fantasy scout and GM.