Speculation: Prospal's play and the gentleman's agreement

[Mayor Bee]

There's no real precedent for something like this ending up in court. A somewhat similar situation took place back in 1977.

Long story short. The Texas Rangers (MLB) drafted Lenny Randle in 1970, and he eventually became their everyday second baseman. They later ended up drafting and developing Bump Wills, also a second baseman, and he burned through the minor leagues. In 1977, it was clear there was going to be a major battle for the starting spot.

Randle knew this, and worked his ass off for months to be in top shape for 1977. Wills didn't, then showed up a week late to spring training. It was made clear publicly and privately that the spot was going to be earned and not given to anyone. Randle had absolutely torn up spring training, but as soon as Wills showed up (late and out of shape), Randle was on the bench and Wills was on the field. After a few days of this, Randle packed up and prepared to leave the team, which he was talked out of. He did say publicly that he'd been lied to and that it was clear that Wills was taking over no matter what, and he only wished that the team had been run by someone honest enough to have said so.

Manager Frank Lucchesi then publicly called Randle a "punk" and suggested in no unclear terms that he was a crybaby. Randle remained, but before a spring training game, they got into a fight that left Lucchesi with facial fractures. Lucchesi said it was unprovoked, Randle said that he was upset when Lucchesi called him a "punk" again as well as other insults. Randle was traded to the Mets, and Lucchesi was fired a few months later after proving once and for all that he wasn't cut out for MLB managing. This part of the story kind of takes the topic to an extreme, but the important thing is that even in this very public case, there were no threats of filing lawsuits against the Rangers.

 

[jdhebner]

http://bluejacketsxtra.dispatch.com/content/blogs/puck-rakers/2012/02/prospal-signs-extension.html

Not sure if this is it but Howson uses the word "we" instead of "I". E.G. "We asked him...."

I can't wait for this to be over one way or the other ....

 

[FlaggerX]

It is good to hear the Jackets have been calling Vinny as Horton can't play for a while, another skilled top sixer would really boost the depth chart and Vinny might be afordable. One thing for sure, we're a cap team now.

 

[cydawg]

tell that to an employment law attorney.

An employment law attorney would say that unless there's something in writing binding the organization to hire Vinny, then they're not obligated to do so. Otherwise, it's the word of a former manager against the word of a now former employee. Even then, this is all irrelevant anyway since Vinny would never pursue this matter in court.

 

[cbj21]

What is more important than what the courts would think is what Prospal believes and players around the league thinks. To me it also matters what I think.

 

[db2011]

2.5 fits doesn't it?

Like a glove, if you ask me.

We went into the Carter/Wz season with pretty high expectations. And proceeded to embarrass ourselves. I don't think that's going to happen again; but VP on the team I think really diminishes the chances of a hangover. Aside from his accomplished play, who on the team fills the role Vinny would, with the bona-fides to back it up? JMFJ and Duby are leaders, but not in the way Vinny is, IMO. I love the young talent on the team, but when things get particularly dicey or high-pressure, the presence of someone like Vinny is extremely valuable.

 

[jdhebner]

2 years 1.9768 per. Book it

 

[CBJ Tiffin]

An employment law attorney would say that unless there's something in writing binding the organization to hire Vinny, then they're not obligated to do so. Otherwise, it's the word of a former manager against the word of a now former employee. Even then, this is all irrelevant anyway since Vinny would never pursue this matter in court.

Really? Oral contracts are still contracts. The problem is they are nearly impossible to enforce because one of the parties may lie about the details, recall the details incorrectly, or simply say there never was an agreement. At that point, it is he said, she said.

In this case the agreement was reported in the newspaper, so it obviously existed. Neither Howson or Prospal called for a retraction of the story or denied the claims of the reporter. I think both the former manager and the former employee would tell the exact same story... not the word of one against the other.

I do agree with your last statement. Vinny does have too much class to pursue the matter in court. Hopefully Jarmo will demonstrate his class as well.

 

[CBJ Tiffin]

What is more important than what the courts would think is what Prospal believes and players around the league thinks.

I very much agree with this. The organization's treatment of its players is damned important when you are asking for their trust and their best effort day in / day out.

 

[Mayor Bee]

I very much agree with this. The organization's treatment of its players is damned important when you are asking for their trust and their best effort day in / day out.

We've spent the entire history of this franchise looking up at Detroit, both in the standings and from an organizational standpoint. Prior regimes had burned bridges with their alumni and fans, and Mike Ilitch made repairing that a top priority and has done so ever since. I despise everything about Detroit, yet respect that.

Detroit would not leave a player like this in a position like this.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

No, what's needed is to fulfill all of those other promises about "the right way" and "the right thing". What would be a bigger sign of that than to basically say, "It doesn't matter that we're not obligated to do this, we're doing it because it's what best for our team on and off the ice"?

Howson was criticized heavily (and still is) for letting a popular and still-productive Malhotra walk away and replacing him with Pahlsson. That followed months of negotiations with absolutely no end in sight. This doesn't involve negotiations; this involves what appears to be absolutely no interest in even letting a respected and still-productive veteran know where he stands.

Lots of good conversation on the Vinny topic today. This post comes closest to how I'd try and phrase my take on it.

 

[Roadman]

I understand the position that Vinny needs to be brought back, I really do.

But my question is pretty simple, how are you going to do it? There is only so much cap space. How are you going to pay him?

The cry around here has been, do what ever is necessary to make this franchise better!! But if you if you have no cap space, you have no leeway, you have robbed yourself of any opportunity to improve. If Vinny is signed, there is nothing else you can do. And if everyone is fine with that, OK.

But, I have read the CBA, (50.10 Player Injuries, Illnesses and Suspensions). and it's provisions for cap as it relates to injuries.

(a) All Player Salary and Bonuses paid to Players on an NHL Active Roster, Injured Reserve or Non-Roster that are Unfit to Play – being either injured or suffering from an illness – shall be counted against a Club's Upper Limit, Actual Club Salary and Averaged Club Salary, as well as against the Players' Share. Notwithstanding the preceding sentence, a Club shall be permitted to exceed the Upper Limit (but League-wide Player Compensation shall never be permitted to exceed the Players' Share) by virtue of the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception set forth in subsection (d) below.

I think you have to have some cap room in order to make call-ups, there is an emergency provision but I can't make much sense of it. So if there's a lawyer that can explain it, please do so. But to me it sounds like unless a player is on LTIR his cap applies as well as whoever you call up to replace him until such time as the call up returns to the AHL.

They way I read it is if we sign Vinny to 2.5M, we have no room to call anyone up. For the whole season, since there would only be ~ 100,000 of space and nobody in SPR makes that little. If somebody knows better or can explain the provision of the CBA that allows it please let me know.

 

[blahblah]

But if you if you have no cap space, you have no leeway, you have robbed yourself of any opportunity to improve. If Vinny is signed, there is nothing else you can do. And if everyone is fine with that, OK.

But, I have read the CBA, (50.10 Player Injuries, Illnesses and Suspensions). and it's provisions for cap as it relates to injuries.



I think you have to have some cap room in order to make call-ups, there is an emergency provision but I can't make much sense of it. So if there's a lawyer that can explain it, please do so. But to me it sounds like unless a player is on LTIR his cap applies as well as whoever you call up to replace him until such time as the call up returns to the AHL.

They way I read it is if we sign Vinny to 2.5M, we have no room to call anyone up. For the whole season, since there would only be ~ 100,000 of space and nobody in SPR makes that little. If somebody knows better or can explain the provision of the CBA that allows it please let me know.

Yes, we'd want to get below that 2.5 million number. We'll get some flexibility with Horton on LTIR (at least I would think he would be, I guess that would depend on the minimum time he would have to stay on LTIR). We also get some flexibility if Murray doesn't make it out of camp.

However LTIR is how teams like Philly and Boston deal with those players with concussion issues. I think Philly can go into the regular season with their roster as is since Progner is on LTIR.

 

[db2011]

I understand the position that Vinny needs to be brought back, I really do.

But my question is pretty simple, how are you going to do it? There is only so much cap space. How are you going to pay him?

The cry around here has been, do what ever is necessary to make this franchise better!! But if you if you have no cap space, you have no leeway, you have robbed yourself of any opportunity to improve. If Vinny is signed, there is nothing else you can do. And if everyone is fine with that, OK.

But, I have read the CBA, (50.10 Player Injuries, Illnesses and Suspensions). and it's provisions for cap as it relates to injuries.



I think you have to have some cap room in order to make call-ups, there is an emergency provision but I can't make much sense of it. So if there's a lawyer that can explain it, please do so. But to me it sounds like unless a player is on LTIR his cap applies as well as whoever you call up to replace him until such time as the call up returns to the AHL.

They way I read it is if we sign Vinny to 2.5M, we have no room to call anyone up. For the whole season, since there would only be ~ 100,000 of space and nobody in SPR makes that little. If somebody knows better or can explain the provision of the CBA that allows it please let me know.

At this point, everybody knows that everybody would like to have Vinny back. It's whether you have an issue with how the situation is being handled.

I'd be concerned about your point if JK didn't say this:

Kekalainen said he would consider bringing back veteran winger Vinny Prospal, if the contract fits under the salary cap. “We’re never done; we’re always looking for ways to improve,†Kekalainen said. “We still have a little room there. But I really like our team.â€

from http://bluejacketsxtra.dispatch.com/content/stories/2013/07/06/horton-finds-home.html

It will depend on what VP is ok signing for, and I don't know how the newest contracts (today) affect things.

But it seems to me there is certainly a way to get VP back on the roster if compromises are made. And the team will be better for it.

 

[IBleedUnionBlue]

Just work out a trade. Johansen for a 2014 1st, would clear 2 million. MacKenzie makes 1 million and he can be traded for a low draft pick or AHLr.

 

[cydawg]

Really? Oral contracts are still contracts. The problem is they are nearly impossible to enforce because one of the parties may lie about the details, recall the details incorrectly, or simply say there never was an agreement. At that point, it is he said, she said.

In this case the agreement was reported in the newspaper, so it obviously existed. Neither Howson or Prospal called for a retraction of the story or denied the claims of the reporter. I think both the former manager and the former employee would tell the exact same story... not the word of one against the other.

The Dispatch reported a handshake deal between Howson and Prospal, not the Blue Jackets and Prospal. Unless someone else in the organization (namely someone in ownership) made the same deal with Prospal, it became null and void when Howson was fired.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Just work out a trade. Johansen for a 2014 1st, would clear 2 million. MacKenzie makes 1 million and he can be traded for a low draft pick or AHLr.

I'd rather stick Umberger on waivers and lose him for nothing than make either of those moves.

 

[CBJ Tiffin]

The Dispatch reported a handshake deal between Howson and Prospal, not the Blue Jackets and Prospal. Unless someone else in the organization (namely someone in ownership) made the same deal with Prospal, it became null and void when Howson was fired.

So you are saying Howson was acting on his own behalf and not as an agent of the CBJ?

 

[CBJ Tiffin]

I'd rather stick Umberger on waivers and lose him for nothing than make either of those moves.

this, or something like it, is what I'd like to see.

 

[EspenK]

According to CapGeek LTIR only gives relief to the extent a replacement player makes you exceed the cap.

Horton goes on LTIR for say 2 months. During those two months we add say a $3 miilion dollar guy. We would get 300k relief for being over the cap.

So if Vinny was added at say 2.5, we could still call up some one to take Horton's spot but once that happened if someone else got hurt we'd be SOL unless that person missed more than 10 games or 24 days which is the requirement for LITR.

http://capgeek.com/faq/how-does-long-term-injured-reserve-LTIR-work

Bottom line it looks like Roadman was right, signing (or anyone) for 2.5 would be risky in terms of calling up guys.

As I read the cap stuff, it is actually is calculated day by day, so if you bring up a guy or two their cap hit is only pro-rated based on the number of days they are here.

 

[IBleedUnionBlue]

I'd rather stick Umberger on waivers and lose him for nothing than make either of those moves.

Just 2 points...
I'd be all for just about any measure to replace Umberger.

MacKenzie is a 4th liner and sometimes scratch. Losing him wouldnt hurt this team.

 

[cydawg]

So you are saying Howson was acting on his own behalf and not as an agent of the CBJ?

Oh of course he was when he signed him to a contract. When they made their agreement? That could be no more than 2 friends talking about their futures over a beer. The parameters of how the deal was made are a complete unknown. Just because Howson was the GM, that doesn't mean he was always acting in an official capacity in discussions with players.

"You keep signing one year deals and then I'll see about getting you into the front office or onto the coaching staff once you're playing days are over." It's highly probable their agreement wasn't anything more than this. That's too vague to be a legal contract that will hold up in court. There certainly wasn't any report of a specific position Vinny wanted or that was offered in the Dispatch. Also, since Vinny still intends on playing, no official employment offer was extended either.

 

[cbj21]

When does it happen that the top scorer is not brought back the next season?
I don't care how old or slow he is. Numbers speak louder than words.
Any examples?

 

[CBJ Tiffin]

That could be no more than 2 friends talking about their futures over a beer. The parameters of how the deal was made are a complete unknown. Just because Howson was the GM, that doesn't mean he was always acting in an official capacity in discussions with players.

You could be right, but if this was the case, would there be any reason to mention it to a reporter, let alone for the reporter to print it in the Dispatch?

"You keep signing one year deals and then I'll see about getting you into the front office or onto the coaching staff once you're playing days are over." It's highly probable their agreement wasn't anything more than this. That's too vague to be a legal contract that will hold up in court. There certainly wasn't any report of a specific position Vinny wanted or that was offered in the Dispatch. Also, since Vinny still intends on playing, no official employment offer was extended either.

This is what the court would need to decide, and I think we can all agree that the courts have done some pretty strange things.

To be clear, I am not saying this would be a slam dunk win for Vinny, but a good attorney could make a case for him. It would kind of hinge on Howson's testimony.

I am just hoping they do the right thing, which in my opinion is to make room for Vinny. It doesn't make a bit of sense to me to bring along half these other guys and leave Vinny, the team's leading scorer, out in the cold.

 

[EspenK]

Here's what Clarence Thomas had to say about this: