Speculation: Prospal's play and the gentleman's agreement

[pete goegan]

This is what the court would need to decide, and I think we can all agree that the courts have done some pretty strange things.

To be clear, I am not saying this would be a slam dunk win for Vinny, but a good attorney could make a case for him. It would kind of hinge on Howson's testimony.

I am just hoping they do the right thing, which in my opinion is to make room for Vinny. It doesn't make a bit of sense to me to bring along half these other guys and leave Vinny, the team's leading scorer, out in the cold.

So what would be the result of winning a suit in Vinny's behalf? A contract? How old would he be by the time that's decided? A job in the front office? For how long? And players who take the system to court do not become very popular elsewhere around the league, either.

Vinny was made a promise by someone who is no longer in position to fulfill it. Yes, we'd all like to see him back, but there's no obligation to do it. If he's back, he will have earned it, not have been given it out of some sense of duty. And what if he's not back? Are those of you so adamant about the gentlemen's agreement going to stop being Jackets fans? Boycott? Protest?

The goal is for the team to be better than last year and the FO gets big bucks to make that happen. If they think bringing Vinny back does that (within the constraint of the salary cap), they'll make it happen. There's time before the season and they've said they're not done, yet. I've seen nothing to this point that has caused doubt about the direction being taken by JD and Jarmo, so I'm willing to wait and see how it all works out.

 

[pete goegan]

Here's what Clarence Thomas had to say about this:

Ha! Excellent!

 

[JacketsDavid]

So much of it will come down to what exactly was promised by Howson. Again I thaink it's irrelevant because teams and players make promises all the time. If verbal's are the law of the land than couldn't teams wait for a player to say "I'm a Blue Jacket for life" then next contract offer him the minimum, then the player leaves and team sues the player? Wouldn't that be the same thing?
Again I understand contract law and that verbals can be considered contracts BUT in this case I don't think it's in the best interest of the players and owners just to move on.

A question I have - Murray has a cap hit of $3.5M. Could the CBJ sign Prospal for $2.5M (or whatever), just keep Murray in AHL? That would give them plenty of flexibility.
I agree having Prospal until Horton comes back is very important. Would hate to get off to another terible start and by the time Horton gets back we've dug a hole.
I also don't think RJ is tradeable, I'm not comfortable moving any of the other d-men (too much youth).
Also right now there is very few teams willing to take on "underproductive" salaries. There will be a glut of guys available with fair salaries that teams would like to move, so I think just saying "well we can trade D-mac" becomes a problem. Also keep in mind even if we trade d-mac it doesn't save much money, someone will replace him on the roster and he doesn't make a lot of money.
To me the easiest path is Murray. With his cap hit at $3.5M he could be replaced with a guy who makes $1-1.5M. Not sure coming off an injury if he was destined for a full-time NHL spot anyways. Just my $.02

 

[pete goegan]

I posted this link in another thread, David, and I think you'll find it of interest:

http://bluejacketsxtra.dispatch.com/content/blogs/puck-rakers/2013/07/cbj-...-a-cap-team.html

The part relevant to your Murray question may be:

"The $66.1 million figure represents a figure that includes three players on entry-level contracts whose cap hits are inflated by performance bonuses. Defensemen Ryan Murray ($2.6M in potential bonuses) and Tim Erixon ($850,000), and forward Ryan Johansen ($1.075M) all have significant bonuses written into their contracts. They total $4.525 million. That's money beyond their base pay.

Now, that $4.525 million counts against the salary cap figure until such time that the players are mathematically eliminated from achieving the bonuses. But ... the NHL salary cap has an allowance in this new collective bargaining agreement that allows teams to go over the salary cap because of performance bonuses, a little breathing room."

There is additional info in the rest of the linked post.

 

[CalBuckeyeRob]

How much did Howson agree to pay him in this "handshake" deal? I am a lawyer and any verbal contract needs to include the essential terms to be valid and the amount of the salary would be the most important one.

 

[EspenK]

The Murray question is the same one I asked re: ELC's. I was nosing around the CBA and it refers to active roster in regards to the cap.

I'm pretty sure if guys on ELC's are in the A their salaries don't count.

But there is the "Redden" rule which prohibits burying a guy in the minors to avoid is cap hit.

 

[CBJ Tiffin]

ok, my point is: it isn't as simple as, Howson's gone, the organization has no obligation to Vinny. In my opinion, it does. That is not to say, the organization must give Vinny a job, no matter what it costs.


I have probably been too hard on Jarmo. I suppose one could say as long as the CBJ are negotiating with Vinny, they are honoring the agreement. Perhaps Vinny is demanding too high a salary...

It just seems like he has not been made much of a priority, and it isn't sitting well with me.

 

[pete goegan]

It just seems like he has not been made much of a priority, and it isn't sitting well with me.

I think you're right about the priority issue and no one can argue with how you feel about it. I do hope Prospal's situation is resolved quickly, because it clearly is very important to a significant portion of hardcore Jackets fans.

 

[JacketsDavid]

I posted this link in another thread, David, and I think you'll find it of interest:

http://bluejacketsxtra.dispatch.com/content/blogs/puck-rakers/2013/07/cbj-...-a-cap-team.html

The part relevant to your Murray question may be:

"The $66.1 million figure represents a figure that includes three players on entry-level contracts whose cap hits are inflated by performance bonuses. Defensemen Ryan Murray ($2.6M in potential bonuses) and Tim Erixon ($850,000), and forward Ryan Johansen ($1.075M) all have significant bonuses written into their contracts. They total $4.525 million. That's money beyond their base pay.

Now, that $4.525 million counts against the salary cap figure until such time that the players are mathematically eliminated from achieving the bonuses. But ... the NHL salary cap has an allowance in this new collective bargaining agreement that allows teams to go over the salary cap because of performance bonuses, a little breathing room."

There is additional info in the rest of the linked post.

Thanks Pete, good stuff! Does help to clarify.

 

[orthosrgn2]

I think you're right about the priority issue and no one can argue with how you feel about it. I do hope Prospal's situation is resolved quickly, because it clearly is very important to a significant portion of hardcore Jackets fans.

Agreed, but in addition doesn't the lack of priority to Vinny, a heart and soul guy, signal to his teammates a modicum of disregard for the leadership in the locker room?

 

[Mayor Bee]

Agreed, but in addition doesn't the lack of priority to Vinny, a heart and soul guy, signal to his teammates a modicum of disregard for the leadership in the locker room?

In other words, exactly the same thing Howson was accused of regarding Peca (who clearly couldn't play at an NHL level any more) and Malhotra (who could). Some have said that he spent the rest of his tenure trying to replace what left in Malhotra and never did.

 

[cbjgirl]

Agreed, but in addition doesn't the lack of priority to Vinny, a heart and soul guy, signal to his teammates a modicum of disregard for the leadership in the locker room?

My opinion, not necessarily. Even the players probably recognize that the order of importance was:

Getting Bob signed
Getting a mid to long-term scoring solution that fits with the system (Horton)
Dealing with the draft (since it is a specific day and can't be "put off").

It wouldn't surprise me if they, like many of us, really like Vinny as a player and a person, but they also realize that the guy is 38 and a slow skater, even though he has great hands and vision. They would know better than we do how Proposal really was last season since they could see him after and between games.

I don't think anyone questions Vinny's heart or desire. The questions would be longevity, physical ability/toll on his body, and how much money he is going to cost.

 

[Nanabijou]

Agreed, but in addition doesn't the lack of priority to Vinny, a heart and soul guy, signal to his teammates a modicum of disregard for the leadership in the locker room?

Maybe, maybe not. We're not in the dressing room. While I have no doubt that Vinny has been an incredibly positive experience, the leadership structure of the dressing room may be dictated by Dubi, Jack and others.

I'd like Vinny back as well, but I'm in the group that thinks that the handshake deal is meaningless and now null and void. If it is decided that Vinny is the best option to strengthen the team, then great, but that should be the only criteria that matters.

 

[pete goegan]

My opinion, not necessarily. Even the players probably recognize that the order of importance was:

Getting Bob signed
Getting a mid to long-term scoring solution that fits with the system (Horton)
Dealing with the draft (since it is a specific day and can't be "put off").

It wouldn't surprise me if they, like many of us, really like Vinny as a player and a person, but they also realize that the guy is 38 and a slow skater, even though he has great hands and vision. They would know better than we do how Proposal really was last season since they could see him after and between games.

I don't think anyone questions Vinny's heart or desire. The questions would be longevity, physical ability/toll on his body, and how much money he is going to cost.

Maybe, maybe not. We're not in the dressing room. While I have no doubt that Vinny has been an incredibly positive experience, the leadership structure of the dressing room may be dictated by Dubi, Jack and others.

I'd like Vinny back as well, but I'm in the group that thinks that the handshake deal is meaningless and now null and void. If it is decided that Vinny is the best option to strengthen the team, then great, but that should be the only criteria that matters.

I agree with both of you.

 

[Roadman]

Maybe, maybe not. We're not in the dressing room. While I have no doubt that Vinny has been an incredibly positive experience, the leadership structure of the dressing room may be dictated by Dubi, Jack and others.

I'd like Vinny back as well, but I'm in the group that thinks that the handshake deal is meaningless and now null and void. If it is decided that Vinny is the best option to strengthen the team, then great, but that should be the only criteria that matters.

My opinion, not necessarily. Even the players probably recognize that the order of importance was:

Getting Bob signed
Getting a mid to long-term scoring solution that fits with the system (Horton)
Dealing with the draft (since it is a specific day and can't be "put off").

It wouldn't surprise me if they, like many of us, really like Vinny as a player and a person, but they also realize that the guy is 38 and a slow skater, even though he has great hands and vision. They would know better than we do how Proposal really was last season since they could see him after and between games.

I don't think anyone questions Vinny's heart or desire. The questions would be longevity, physical ability/toll on his body, and how much money he is going to cost.

I agree with both of you.

Amen

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Agreed, but in addition doesn't the lack of priority to Vinny, a heart and soul guy, signal to his teammates a modicum of disregard for the leadership in the locker room?

Hard to say not being in there. One one hand, these guys are pros, and they know about the business side of things. On the other hand, they don't have to like it. Guessing players (not unlike posters here) would each react differently.

In other words, exactly the same thing Howson was accused of regarding Peca (who clearly couldn't play at an NHL level any more) and Malhotra (who could). Some have said that he spent the rest of his tenure trying to replace what left in Malhotra and never did.

As much as I tire of transparent attempts to relate everything to the previous FO leadership...

This.

I don't find the two situations congruous, and I won't get into why. However, what they do have in common is a player who is special in an off-ice sort of way, and what the retention or removal of that player would mean to the team.

 

[jacketsinDC]

I think fans will put up with it but not like it. It is new management that has come in with a good reputation and is going to get the benefit of the doubt for a while. They also oversaw (regardless of whose team it was) a real turn-around in team performance and respectability, and will get some wiggle room from that, too.

I think it's a poor decision and vinny has earned another year for sure, even if just to fill horton's spot until christmas. But then again they're millionaires so... they're paid for stuff like this and have lawyers for things like getting a valid contract.

 

[Nordique]

ok, my point is: it isn't as simple as, Howson's gone, the organization has no obligation to Vinny. In my opinion, it does. That is not to say, the organization must give Vinny a job, no matter what it costs.


I have probably been too hard on Jarmo. I suppose one could say as long as the CBJ are negotiating with Vinny, they are honoring the agreement. Perhaps Vinny is demanding too high a salary...

It just seems like he has not been made much of a priority, and it isn't sitting well with me.

This. Maybe I over estimate the effect Prospal had on this team, but imo he would be a valuable asset going forward, on and off the ice.

 

[orthosrgn2]

My opinion, not necessarily. Even the players probably recognize that the order of importance was:

Getting Bob signed
Getting a mid to long-term scoring solution that fits with the system (Horton)
Dealing with the draft (since it is a specific day and can't be "put off").

It wouldn't surprise me if they, like many of us, really like Vinny as a player and a person, but they also realize that the guy is 38 and a slow skater, even though he has great hands and vision. They would know better than we do how Proposal really was last season since they could see him after and between games.

I don't think anyone questions Vinny's heart or desire. The questions would be longevity, physical ability/toll on his body, and how much money he is going to cost.

I agree with the order, but all those issues have been addressed and we have limited cap space. In my opinion Jarmo should bring this to resolution to avoid it becoming a divisive problem in a locker room that has seemingly moved in the right direction. If Vinny is asking for more then JK will spend then cut him loose. I really hope there is a good trade option to keep him here because he stii can produce and his leadership is very valuable

 

[NotWendell]

Jarmo responded "we'll think about it" both times he was asked about Prospal on 10TV's Wall to Wall Sports tonight. Paid him homage, but not exactly compelling fans to believe Vinny will be back this season.

 

[EspenK]

What about something like 1.8 & 1.2 for2 yrs. Buyout after 1 = 2.6. This could be done and stay under the cap while allowing flexibility for call ups.

I don't think he is coming back.

 

[vippe]

I really hope he is signed ... It's impossible to not like him in CBJ

 

[Xoggz22]

I love Vinny and would welcome him back with open arms. However, if this team's mantra is to get bigger, younger and stronger.... I'm struggling with where you fit him in. I realize it's for "1 year" and he offers so much value beyond the score sheet. This is a tough decision by management. I was just hoping something could be worked out where either Vinny retired or he's part of the organization in some way. I don't want to see ill will in this situation given the positive tide we appear to be riding for the last 9 months.

 

[Kev22]

I would imagine that Vinny will know where he stands this week. If Jarmo has designs on a player that might still be available, he'll have to make his decision pretty quickly. It's obvious that Jarmo is not done putting this club together. Does he trade someone to make cap room, does he sign Vinny? I think we'll find out this week.

 

[Samkow]

Expecting Prospal to take a 50% pay cut would be insulting to Prospal.

He's gone guys. And he ain't coming back.