PK Subban has retired - does he make the hall of fame, and where does he rank all-time?

[Yozhik v tumane]

i didn't pay a lot of attention to that nashville team, but i'm curious how everybody takes that year/playoff run

was it the case of subban stepping into a really good 80s/90s washington-style top four and establishing himself as the clear best one

or subban stepping into that really good top four, getting an elite defensive partner in ekholm, and that support of both ekholm and an elite 1a pair of josi/ellis helping him to a couple really really good years before his steep decline?

I don’t remember Subban’s run standing out all that much within the context of that d-core. He was being praised to be sure and deservingly so, he played a pretty well-rounded game and drove play probably a bit better than the others that postseason, but I recall Ekholm and especially Ellis receiving a ton of attention. I think in those cases it was very much the case of them having coming-out parties of sorts, though.

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

First ballot for the Black Hockey Hall of Fame

Was just gonna ask, does he get points for being as good as he was and black?

 

[Pizza!Pizza!]

He could eventually get in as a builder, but not as a player. Great guy, but most overrated player in the NHL during his prime. Too many fans just watched his beautiful highlight reel goals instead of the entire game where his constant bad neutral zone turnovers and blown coverages ended up in Montreal's net. I watched multiple playoff games that they lost, solely due to his mistakes, and yet he was praised in the post game because he had multiple points or a flashy breakaway goal. Habs homer goggles gave him undue hype.

Still, he has a hall of fame personality and is a great humanitarian. I hope he has a long and successful broadcasting career and gets into the HHoF for that.

 

[shadow1]

Three years to be exact. Over a six-year period.

Outside of those three seasons, Subban was never considered one of the top-13 (by Norris results) defencemen in the NHL. To put it another way, in 9 of his 12 seasons (75% of his career) he wasn't a top-13 defenceman, let alone an All Star.

Okay, I guess I need to correct myself: Subban wasn't literally a 1st or 2nd team all-star more than three times. But he was clearly an all-star caliber player in those six seasons you're referencing.

I don't like the argument about Norris voting finishes. Yes, they can be important, but after the first 7-8 spots it becomes a crap shoot due to low vote volume.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

At first glance it's a no but the reality is the Hall of Fame has been debased by shitters like Carbonneau/Duff/Clarke/Andreychuk/Nieuwendyk/Housley/Lowe/Boivin etc and will drop even lower once Marleau inevitably gets inducted for being a complimentary player for more games than anyone else. Subban is a clear tier above these players just off the Norris trophy and multiple nominations alone.

 

[jigglysquishy]

The HHOF limits itself to four male players a year and has mostly stuck to that. On average, we would be looking at three or four players per draft year using this metric. So let's look at Subban's peers (2007 draft) and the years above and below to see how he compares. These guys are all 32-34 so some might still raise their stock enough to join

2006 Draft
Locks
Toews
Marchand

Likely
Giroux
Kessel
Backstrom

2007 Draft
Locks
Kane

Likely

Outside looking in
Subban
Benn

2008 Draft
Locks
Stamkos
Doughty
Karlsson
Josi

Likely
Pietrangelo

Outside looking in
Carlson


2007 itself is fairly weak, but 2006 and 2008 are strong years. As weird as it sounds, guys like Pietrangelo and Carlson finishing their careers strong might be the biggest hurdle in Subban's HHOF journey.

 

[MadLuke]

The HHOF limits itself to four male players a year and has mostly stuck to that. On average, we would be looking at three or four players per draft year using this metric.

from 2000 to 2020 it was 2.9 nhler player a year in average, that could go up a little once the soviet player are all in. I agree that a good way to look at it, because I do not have the feeling that the hockey all of fame will go the route of introducing no one some years if they do not find anyone worthy, they will just lower the criteria and always put around 3 players a year in average in a window of year.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

I think he could get in, although not purely for on-ice accomplishments. His blackness bolsters his case. Has there ever been a black player that the NHL has celebrated more during their career? If he continues to play a role in promoting the game, that + a very good career could get him in.

I know a lot of people wouldn't like that, but I think its an important part of the picture with him.

 

[Wats]

He needed more longevity to have a chance. He has a span of 6 years where he was elite, he fell off way too fast and too soon.

 

[MadLuke]

I know a lot of people wouldn't like that

Much better than playing golf with some voters.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

i didn't pay a lot of attention to that nashville team, but i'm curious how everybody takes that year/playoff run

was it the case of subban stepping into a really good 80s/90s washington-style top four and establishing himself as the clear best one

or subban stepping into that really good top four, getting an elite defensive partner in ekholm, and that support of both ekholm and an elite 1a pair of josi/ellis helping him to a couple really really good years before his steep decline?

I wasn't watching close enough to say one way or the other, but I do remember he had a pretty bad start there, like the first 25 games of the year type of thing. Nashville didn't have a great regular season but really turned it on in the playoffs and pulled off some upsets, nearly winning the Cup. So from a macro view, I think there's some "missing piece" bonus points he earns there, and his regular season was better than it looks once you allow for a new team adjustment period. Was it PK's individual greatness that was the catalyst for the franchise having their most successful season? I don't know about that, but he did show up to replace a star at the same position, and the success did happen.

Not to say that makes a Hall of Famer, but to me it's more tangible than a dubious Norris Trophy from a 40 game season, which seems to be the main point of focus for anyone supporting his candidacy.

 

[Gurglesons]

The HHOF limits itself to four male players a year and has mostly stuck to that. On average, we would be looking at three or four players per draft year using this metric. So let's look at Subban's peers (2007 draft) and the years above and below to see how he compares. These guys are all 32-34 so some might still raise their stock enough to join

2006 Draft
Locks
Toews
Marchand

Likely
Giroux
Kessel
Backstrom

2007 Draft
Locks
Kane

Likely

Outside looking in
Subban
Benn

2008 Draft
Locks
Stamkos
Doughty
Karlsson
Josi

Likely
Pietrangelo

Outside looking in
Carlson


2007 itself is fairly weak, but 2006 and 2008 are strong years. As weird as it sounds, guys like Pietrangelo and Carlson finishing their careers strong might be the biggest hurdle in Subban's HHOF journey.

It’s bizarre that Pietrangelo is a likely HHOF over Subban in your opinion.

Was Pietrangelo ever a top five D in the league?

 

[jigglysquishy]

It’s bizarre that Pietrangelo is a likely HHOF over Subban in your opinion.

Was Pietrangelo ever a top five D in the league?

He was on the second All Star team three times.

Being the number one defenseman on a Cup winning team goes a long way.

He played over Subban at the 2014 Olympics and the 2016 World Cup.

He's already 50 points ahead of Subban in their careers and will only widen that gap. For such an offensive oriented defenseman, to finish with under 500 points isn't exactly an accomplishment for Subban.

 

[Gurglesons]

He was on the second All Star team three times.

Being the number one defenseman on a Cup winning team goes a long way.

He played over Subban at the 2014 Olympics and the 2016 World Cup.

He's already 50 points ahead of Subban in their careers and will only widen that gap. For such an offensive oriented defenseman, to finish with under 500 points isn't exactly an accomplishment for Subban.

Never a Norris finalist and never won a Norris which Subban did twice and once.

I dunno. If Piets gets in, I don’t see how Subban doesn’t. I’m not a big fan of Piets tho.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'd take Pietrangelo over Subban certainly...

 

[Felidae]

Lmao not even close. Not even in the Hall of very good either. Short career, short peakness.

Come on now, if he never makes the HHOF he'll be one of the better defenders to never be inducted.

 

[MXD]

Come on now, if he never makes the HHOF he'll be one of the better defenders to never be inducted.

To be honest he wouldn't be THAT far from it, but there has to be someone who is the best D-Men not in the HHOF, and frankly I'd rather like Subban to be that player than the actual best defender who isn't in, which is Jean-Claude Tremblay.

Though I must admit that PK Subban is a really odd place to place the line; this said, it's not there yet, and it's not getting there unless Tremblay makes it in the first (there are other candidates for this, too).

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

dany heatley?

upthread i compared subban to roenick for career arc, only with an abrupt stop at year 12

who else belongs in this conversation? jimmy carson probably wins this hands down

I suppose, although there are reasons that would have been obvious up close for Carson & Heatley by year 5 as to why they were going to regress. Subban might have been a little deficient defensively, but he had great instinctive sense of the game on both sides of the puck, just not consistent enough defensively

Roenick doesnt appear in this conversation imo, having a deep playoff run in year 16 rules out the disappointment category to me

 

[Gurglesons]

I'd take Pietrangelo over Subban certainly...

Prime Pietrangelo was never a top five defenseman in the league. Are you denying Subban was?

 

[Guttersniped]

Is that true?

Weber had one great year in Montreal and then was pretty much hurt every other one outside the two COVID years.

Subban was a Norris finalist and their top d-man when they went to the cup final. Where IMO they win if RyJo doesn't get a freak injury.

He was a Norris finalist his second year in Nashville when they lost in the 2nd Rd to the Jets.

It makes sense, a strong playoff performance often boosts a defenseman’s Norris voting in the following season. Shared narratives about players get created and/or supercharged then.

If Nashville won and he got the Conn Smythe then his chances would have improved.

As it is now Weber is going to get a lot more out of a long run with a higher profile team than PK will with Nashville.

As a Devils fan I can say that Subban seemed like a good soldier who was supportive during what must have been been pretty grim times for a vet.

I can also say his career might as well ended three years earlier in terms of this conversation, being on bottom feeder is a death sentence for a defenseman’s rep. He was declining but maybe a better team would have fluffed those stats.

His playoff numbers are impressive and those seem to matter quite a bit to voters:
96 GP 18G 44A 62 Pts 0.65 PPG

He has the 3rd most points from 2009-10 to 2018-19, only Keith (109 GP 18G 57A 75 Pts) and Letang (93 GP 17G 48A 65 Pts) have more.

Only 13 defensemen have played more playoff games in the same time frame though.

If he went Cup hunting I guess those numbers would have likely gone down, he might have needed a surgical strike there lol.

I don’t know, I know Neeley and Lindros are examples of shortened careers but forwards get in the easiest, particularly beloved forwards of major franchises.

Maybe Montreal gets sentimental about him after a while and he matures into likable, popular media figure. Maybe it comes out that injuries caused this retirement rather than a desire to move on to broadcasting.

The last bit seems kind of important to me, I don’t see how he gets any consideration if the competitive fires weren’t a furnace and only injuries made it impossible to continue. Hard to go into Hall if he’s moving on at 33 because other opportunities opened up.

I really like Subban, some people are for sure underrating rating him here, and I have a expansive, more the merrier, view of the Hall. It wouldn’t bother me if Subban somehow stumbled in, but I don’t see happening.

Who knows what a future selection committee will do though.

 

[tiburon12]

How much does Subban's "fame" elevate his candidacy? He brought so much attention to hockey through his off-ice endeavors that he was and still is a major ambassador for the sport itself.

That must count for something

 

[Michael Farkas]

Prime Pietrangelo was never a top five defenseman in the league. Are you denying Subban was?

I'm not sure that Petro "was never" top 5. I guess it depends on how long you have to sustain it for to be considered. But whatever that length of time is, it probably either boxes out Subban or includes Petro...because Subban is a lot more flash than substance...and Petro more of a thinking man's player. Quietly very effective. Subban was very complex and inefficient. His top end is insanely good, very dynamic. But for Petro to be a "never was" but Subban to be a "definitely was" requires a little bit of gymnastics for me...

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm not sure that Petro "was never" top 5. I guess it depends on how long you have to sustain it for to be considered. But whatever that length of time is, it probably either boxes out Subban or includes Petro...because Subban is a lot more flash than substance...and Petro more of a thinking man's player. Quietly very effective. Subban was very complex and inefficient. His top end is insanely good, very dynamic. But for Petro to be a "never was" but Subban to be a "definitely was" requires a little bit of gymnastics for me...

I just have never seen the two-way player people claim Pietro was.

He reminds me of what people try to insinuate Kris Letang is. Offensive only player who struggles in the d-zone.

And for that I reason I value Subban more because he was at another level offensively and showed in Nashville he can play the defensive role.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I think Petro has gotten worse defensively as he's aged - almost surprisingly so at times. But prime Petro seemed like a different player.

I'm not sure about the "play the defensive role" part there...that's not how I recall it, personally. But maybe I'll check the tape again when I have a few moments...I certainly wouldn't mind re-watching the 2017 Final, in particular...

 

[MeHateHe]

How much does Subban's "fame" elevate his candidacy? He brought so much attention to hockey through his off-ice endeavors that he was and still is a major ambassador for the sport itself.

That must count for something

As others have noted, the fact that the word "fame" is in the organization's title doesn't mean it's a hall for famous hockey players. Otherwise, the Sean Avery Wing might include John Scott and (The Missing) Link Gaetz.

However, given that we often discuss how much impact a player being a jerk has on keeping them out of the hall, it's worth considering if being a good guy gets players any sympathetic votes. Subban is known for being an affable fellow, charitable with his time and money, and good in front of a microphone. I would imagine that would get him a few extra brownie points among some voters. I'm not sure it is enough to get him over the top,