PK Subban has retired - does he make the hall of fame, and where does he rank all-time?

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Michael Farkas

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Again, he's in a weird spot...because he's a charitable guy, but also a pretty dirty player. So, if it ends up that players that he played against are on the committee...it might not be all brownie points...it might be...uhhh...broccoli...points...? Whatever the opposite of brownies are...
 

Johnny Engine

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Jul 29, 2009
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Again, he's in a weird spot...because he's a charitable guy, but also a pretty dirty player. So, if it ends up that players that he played against are on the committee...it might not be all brownie points...it might be...uhhh...broccoli...points...? Whatever the opposite of brownies are...
How about cub demerits?
 

sr edler

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Mar 20, 2010
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i didn't pay a lot of attention to that nashville team, but i'm curious how everybody takes that year/playoff run

was it the case of subban stepping into a really good 80s/90s washington-style top four and establishing himself as the clear best one

or subban stepping into that really good top four, getting an elite defensive partner in ekholm, and that support of both ekholm and an elite 1a pair of josi/ellis helping him to a couple really really good years before his steep decline?

The latter obviously.

I also feel a slightly (not massively) underrated aspect of that Nashville team (as well as San Jose in 2016) making the SCFs is the power vacuum left in the West when the Chicago and LA power houses fell apart. It left a bit of a vacuum to surge in on for the other Western top teams. Then next year in 2018 you had Vegas, an expansion team, surging in on it. And then the Blues. Every year a new sheriff in town.

It was almost like one of those chaotic saloons in the old Wild West, you know, where anyone with a (perceived) big enough revolver could just charge in through the saloon doors and join the gunfight, just to be thrown out of a window by the owner. Only St. Louis of these teams actually managed to overpower the saloon owner and pull it off in the SCFs, and I think that was considered a fairly big upset, right?

But back to Subban, no, I don't think he was really better than Josi when in Nashville. For what it's worth he didn't get more ice time than Josi, by Laviolette. He didn't separate himself offensively from Josi. Was he better than Josi defensively? Perhaps a little tiny bit at best? But then again, we're probably splitting hairs or talking margins here that could easily be explained by pairings or match-ups or whatever. Subban in Nashville, to me, didn't come across as this refined shutdown guy, I can say that much at least, but then I guess to some degree we all view this game with slightly different goggles from each other.

But Subban falling off this big cliff after leaving Nashville perhaps isn't the greatest of looks, from above mentioned perspective.

I don't know, but for someone with such great and dynamic edge work to his skating, at his peak, it was just weird to see him start clinging onto opponents' backs, and wrestle people in the corners, or wrestle people behind the net, and all the slew-footing… It just felt like something you would expect from someone suffering a major career-crippling injury or something, struggling to keep up.
 

Michael Farkas

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He wasn't better than Josi defensively for me.

Re: Your last paragraph. Excellent points. It is weird. For people that really know the score, "weird" should be one of the bigger red flags that you have...because "weird" means that something doesn't look right or match up. It's important to pursue that weirdness because most things in this arena aren't just random chance.



This is Subban doing a skating drill. On its surface, it looks good or great or whatever...but in there lies the problem that you hinted at.

This is an athletic player, who relies on athleticism to cover his deficiencies. At the top end, in his prime, he was unreal as a puck carrier and a shoot-to-score point man. He deserved a better fate in 2011 all by himself, in fact.

But here's the trick, and here's why it fell apart so quickly...whereas other athletic players could hang on longer (Subban was toast at 29 or 30, while someone like, say, Keith Yandle made it a few seasons longer)...his athleticism was ALSO flawed. So the mental game and all that, PLUS the technicals of athleticism are poor.

The skating drill...what you see there is a lot of steps, a lot of fast steps, in a very short amount of time...why would someone rush through an exercise? Same reason why we might rush through a pull up or even a simple motion like a bicep curl...to gloss over bad form. Does anyone here do a bicep curl 3 seconds on the up, and 3 seconds on the negative/down? Hell, I know how it's supposed to be done and still probably only go 1 up and 2, 2.5 seconds down because I don't have the patience or the discipline. But bottom line, we're doing it to get through it and we're doing it to gloss over bad form. Most of the time, amateur gym-goers, like myself, would rather do a 40 pound bicep curl wrong than do a 25 pound bicep curl right. That's the nature of being a man that isn't on a principled path.

Same thing with Subban here...he's rushing through this drill because he's actually not that great at it. Not that he's a bad skater, that's not what's being said...but the technique, and therefore the scalability and longevity of the skill is weak.

The folks that know me here know that there are certain goalies and players that I don't care for because I don't like how they go about their business. And to some it's, "ah, who cares...he stopped the puck, that's his job, take it at face value..." but here's why I don't do that.

Subban went from Norris finalist to liability in, what, 2? 3 seasons? in his late 20's...the circumstances changed and he couldn't keep up. Because within technique comes adaptability. It allows you to be good anywhere. That's why Martin Brodeur could play through three distinctly different eras and still be great. It wasn't because of Stevens, it was with Stevens. It was with Stevens, because it wasn't because of Paul Martin.

Anywho, before I get too far off the track...Subban in the clip above (ya know, 19 paragraphs ago when I introduced it) is putting in so much work for so little outcome, relatively speaking. The strides aren't powerful because the technique is bad. The weight placement (and he's playing at 6'0", 210 or so I think) is on the heel and on the middle of the blade. It's not on the toe, the ankle flexion isn't there, the upper body is fighting against the lower body movement because he's not able to get off of his "center line" to create these explosive movements. From shoulder to toe, it's so much work -- extra work, extra work takes a toll...it comes at a cost.

If you're leaning off your center line, if you're making shoulder/stick-led turns, if you're driving through your toes and you have ankle flexion (don't tape your ankles kids), you don't have to make so many strides...you don't have to work so hard.

Back to the game: So when you pivot and turn with your attacker, you're used to being a better athlete and having more pop to your stride, more explosion. But the second he fell out of his athletic prime...no pop. So his brain goes, "how the hell am I still all the way back here?" and then it's what you mentioned - hanging on to guys, trailing behind, water-skiing.

And just like that, he's out of a job...
 

PaulD

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1st-3rd-3rd for the Norris would get most players in, yet, with less meat on the overall bone (GP, GP as a top-end player, award voting beyond 3 best years), and the fact that this Norris record almost certainly overrates him, I'm going to say no. Or at least, I hope not.


Significantly more mobile and agile. Much better puck carrier. An actual driver of the play and not just a guy with decent puck skills and dynamite shot.

For a while there I'd have put him 2nd in the NHL after Karlsson for being able to lug the puck into and around the zone.
Dion scored 20 goals in his rookie season
PK won a norris

But neither will get in the HOF
 

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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You're right. This is nitpicking.

It isn't the make or break to get him in the HHOF either way. It's not like PK is even a bubble guy for his career. Kevin Lowe, even Phil Housley, let's stop! Defensemen were normally thought of as a difficult group to get into the HHOF. The standard at one time was pretty good.

But Hagelin was a speed demon.

Did you know Hagelin's great-grandfather invented encryption machines? And that his great-great-grandfather worked for the famous Nobel family in present day Azerbaijan?

You can say his skating was dynamite.

View attachment 587934

Oh he was fast for sure, I am just talking about the effort of trying to catch Hagelin rather than actually catching him. PK is not likely to catch up to him on a breakaway, but, as Patrick Stefan could tell you, things can happen on a breakaway.
 

Dingo

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Jul 13, 2018
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He could eventually get in as a builder, but not as a player. Great guy, but most overrated player in the NHL during his prime. Too many fans just watched his beautiful highlight reel goals instead of the entire game where his constant bad neutral zone turnovers and blown coverages ended up in Montreal's net. I watched multiple playoff games that they lost, solely due to his mistakes, and yet he was praised in the post game because he had multiple points or a flashy breakaway goal. Habs homer goggles gave him undue hype.

Still, he has a hall of fame personality and is a great humanitarian. I hope he has a long and successful broadcasting career and gets into the HHoF for that.
this is gospel.
 
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Big Phil

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Dion scored 20 goals in his rookie season
PK won a norris

But neither will get in the HOF

Neither played on Team Canada at the highest level. PK for one game in 2014, that's it. This is the problem with both of these guys, their was a lot of style and not enough substance for them. Perhaps Phaneuf has the best season out of any of them, in 2008. Can you imagine a scenario in 2008 where Phaneuf doesn't make the 2010 Olympic team? Well, he didn't. And he wasn't even the biggest omission on defense. He sunk so fast from having a great season to being so-so the remainder of his career, and a huge punching bag in Toronto, fair or not.

PK had that too, but I think Phaneuf was better overall when he wasn't a star anymore. Neither of them deserve the HHOF, but both have great highlight packages. I'd be nervous if either one of them were my best d-man.
 

summer tooth

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Still can't believe he retired. It's almost like the end of an era and he'll be sorely missed. He's an auto-admit to the Hall of Fame obviously.
 

Big Phil

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Still can't believe he retired. It's almost like the end of an era and he'll be sorely missed. He's an auto-admit to the Hall of Fame obviously.

I think you're in the minority on this one. His best comparison from a career value standpoint is probably Dion Phaneuf, and that's not saying a whole lot. He was awful after 2018. So for a guy to not even hit 30 and then do nothing notable afterwards and just have filler seasons, he had to have done some big things in his 20s, and he didn't.

If he makes a big splash with ESPN there might be this idea that he is in the public eye as a former player and that can only help you (probably helped Doug Wilson). But it doesn't mean he deserves it either. What should happen and what the HHOF committee does aren't always the same.
 
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summer tooth

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I think you're in the minority on this one. His best comparison from a career value standpoint is probably Dion Phaneuf, and that's not saying a whole lot. He was awful after 2018. So for a guy to not even hit 30 and then do nothing notable afterwards and just have filler seasons, he had to have done some big things in his 20s, and he didn't.

If he makes a big splash with ESPN there might be this idea that he is in the public eye as a former player and that can only help you (probably helped Doug Wilson). But it doesn't mean he deserves it either. What should happen and what the HHOF committee does aren't always the same.
Be that as it may, only one Norris Trophy winner has ever not made it to the HOF. He's also a major community leader which could be a small factor.
 

MacMacandBarbie

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Dec 9, 2019
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Probably the most accomplished black defenseman to ever play the game, and his case will only build as his media career grows. I say he gets in eventually.
 

Big Phil

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Be that as it may, only one Norris Trophy winner has ever not made it to the HOF. He's also a major community leader which could be a small factor.

All that are eligible, yes. That aren't Randy Carlyle. I think that list will grow though. Brent Burns and Mark Giordano come to mind as someone who will join Subban as a HHOF-less Norris winner. Hard to say about Roman Josi right now, but he has a better chance than any of them. Adam Fox is rather young, so we'll see. But the bottom line is Subban and Carlyle won't be alone. Giordano is a lock to NOT be in.
 
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bobholly39

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I think you're in the minority on this one. His best comparison from a career value standpoint is probably Dion Phaneuf, and that's not saying a whole lot. He was awful after 2018. So for a guy to not even hit 30 and then do nothing notable afterwards and just have filler seasons, he had to have done some big things in his 20s, and he didn't.

If he makes a big splash with ESPN there might be this idea that he is in the public eye as a former player and that can only help you (probably helped Doug Wilson). But it doesn't mean he deserves it either. What should happen and what the HHOF committee does aren't always the same.

PK Subban is much, much better than Phaneuf. Regular season and playoffs, both
 

jigglysquishy

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PK Subban has 834 games played. Post expansion non Soviet HHoFers defenseman by fewest games played.

1. Bobby Orr - 657
2. Guy Lapointe - 884
3. Mark Howe- 929 (plus 426 WHA games)
4. Rod Langway - 994
5. Doug Wilson - 1024

He would have the shortest career of anyone besides Orr.

His peak seems far too low and far too short to earn this distinction.
 

NOTENOUGHRYJOTHINGS

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If like Subban things fall apart for Makar and Makar doesn't add anything to his trophy case after he's 23 would he get into the hall? Is two elite seasons enough if one of those seasons resulted in a Norris Smythe and Cup?

If Nashville had won the cup would Subban have won the Smythe? And does that push him over the line into the hall?
 

MXD

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This may be a repeat of my earlier take, but his so-so 2015-16/2016-17 are probably what'S keeping him out of the HHOF.
 
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seventieslord

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If like Subban things fall apart for Makar and Makar doesn't add anything to his trophy case after he's 23 would he get into the hall? Is two elite seasons enough if one of those seasons resulted in a Norris Smythe and Cup?

If Nashville had won the cup would Subban have won the Smythe? And does that push him over the line into the hall?
Those were more than just elite seasons
 

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