PK Subban has retired - does he make the hall of fame, and where does he rank all-time?

[The Crypto Guy]

Lmao not even close. Not even in the Hall of very good either. Short career, short peakness.

 

[MXD]

Re: Subban's lack of playing time for Team Canada, I got the feeling that Subban was a player who could really carry the play and dominate against average players, but didn't stand out as much with or against the best. That's how he won his Norris in 2013, playing weaker opposition and dominating play.

On the other hand... His regular, 5-on-5 D-Partner that season was the 37 year old version of Francis Bouillon. That is, on the of my head, the weakest regular partner to any Norris winner I can think of, by a VERY significant margin.

Hard to say if he makes the Hall of Fame, Erik Karlsson has a better chance on making the hall then he does.

If Erik Karlsson doesn't make the HHOF, the HHOF should be dis-established if that somehow possible. Like, shut, lock, tear down. He's already a Top-Third HHOF (granted I don't see things changing much).

 

[MXD]

Can't see it. Only had couple good years. Won Norris during short season. Last five years he was fringe NHL caliber player. Tons of negativity around him also.

Second All-Star Team, Norris Nominee, averages over 24 mins a game in RS and over 26 mins in PO. Fringe NHL caliber. Tough crowd.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Francis Bouillon. That is, on the of my head, the weakest regular partner to any Norris winner I can think of, by a VERY significant margin.

I assume Harvey won with Al Langlois at some point...just trying to throw one out there for no other purpose than to throw one out there...

 

[overpass]

On the other hand... His regular, 5-on-5 D-Partner that season was the 37 year old version of Francis Bouillon. That is, on the of my head, the weakest regular partner to any Norris winner I can think of, by a VERY significant margin.

Oh, that’s a fun topic.

My first thought was that Mark Howe almost won the Norris and led in all-star voting in 82-83 with Glen Cochrane, a goon with 411 career NHL games, as his regular partner.

 

[Leafs87]

I remember people saying the Weber for Subban trade was lobsided because of age. They end up retiring a year apart with Weber being significantly better through his tenure with MTL than Subban with Preds

 

[MXD]

I assume Harvey won with Al Langlois at some point...just trying to throw one out there for no other purpose than to throw one out there...

Oh, that’s a fun topic.

My first thought was that Mark Howe almost won the Norris and led in all-star voting in 82-83 with Glen Cochrane, a goon with 411 career NHL games, as his regular partner.

I knew I'd get good answers

Bouillon was certainly the better player if comparing primes. But that was 37 years old Bouillon.

 

[quietbruinfan]

I assume Harvey won with Al Langlois at some point...just trying to throw one out there for no other purpose than to throw one out there...

I kind of wonder who he played with on the Rangers too. Just sayin....

 

[norrisnick]

Thread derailment continues...

Lidstrom won the Norris pre-lockout with such partners as 39yo Larry Murphy and part-time forward Mathieu Dandenault (he hadn't made the full time swap to D yet) in '01, rescued out of Switzerland 35yo Freddy Olausson in '02 and Dmitri Bykov in '03. Who is Dmitri Bykov you might ask? Some Russian kid that spent one season next to Lidstrom and then promptly went back to Russia. Literally his only season in NA.

 

[The Panther]

- He is the best full black (note: not mixed-race like Iginla) hockey player in NHL history
- His popularity amongst fans,

It is the hockey hall of fame.

Your overall point was quite reasonable, but just to nitpick these:

-- I've said this before in other threads, but I do not think it is a good idea for a bunch of hockey fans (esp. we're nearly all white) to be deciding on behalf of non-white players "how black" they are. Race is a non-biological socialized identity talking point and nothing more. Subban may consider himself "full black" (whatever that is), or he may consider himself "mixed", or he may consider himself something else. The point is, Subban can decide for himself what race he is (if he cares). He may or may nor want his race to be factor in how he's perceived. It's not up to the mass (white) hockey public to decide that.

-- His popularity among fans isn't really a determining factor, as I see it, in pushing his Hall of Fame credentials. (His charity funding is.) Besides, isn't Subban simultaneously one of the more disliked players...? Kind of goes both ways.

-- Someone always brings up the "hall of fame" semantic argument, but let's not kid ourselves -- it's not about fame and never has been. If it were, Sean Avery would be a first-ballot.

 

[VanIslander]

I agree wholeheartedly with 50% of what MXD said.

 

[Gurglesons]

I remember people saying the Weber for Subban trade was lobsided because of age. They end up retiring a year apart with Weber being significantly better through his tenure with MTL than Subban with Preds

Is that true?

Weber had one great year in Montreal and then was pretty much hurt every other one outside the two COVID years.

Subban was a Norris finalist and their top d-man when they went to the cup final. Where IMO they win if RyJo doesn't get a freak injury.

 

[sr edler]

Even in the few years before that, Yandle, Visnovsky, Ehrhoff and Streit to name a few more...

And prior to that Bryan McCabe, early Phaneuf. And only a year ago or something Dougie Hamilton was considered superior to his D partner Jaccob Slavin per Norris voting. He got 239 votes, Slavin got 4 votes. Carolina didn't even agree with that.

Look at Calgary these last playoffs when Tanev got hurt, they were in complete disarray.

 

[Bustedprospect]

He will likely make it. Since guys like Lowe is in the standards are really low.

 

[norrisnick]

He will likely make it. Since guys like Lowe is in the standards are really low.

He needs to be a GM for a long time without accomplishing anything first.

 

[MXD]

Thread derailment continues...

Lidstrom won the Norris pre-lockout with such partners as 39yo Larry Murphy and part-time forward Mathieu Dandenault (he hadn't made the full time swap to D yet) in '01, rescued out of Switzerland 35yo Freddy Olausson in '02 and Dmitri Bykov in '03. Who is Dmitri Bykov you might ask? Some Russian kid that spent one season next to Lidstrom and then promptly went back to Russia. Literally his only season in NA.

All of these were better than 37 years old version of Francis Bouillon, but that's neither here or there.

 

[MXD]

On topic : He'd fall just short of my criteria if I was voting, mostly due of a mix of prime/peak not being extremely consistent (players got in with such short primes, but it tended to be a consistent prime, something Subban didn't quite have) AND because he was not good out of said prime (and by that, I mean barely Top-4 material).

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I think moreso than the Norris win, the biggest feather in Subban's cap is his first year in Nashville. This was a solid team that could never quite get over the hump, and they traded away their franchise cornerstone for Subban. That's a ton of pressure, and he did deliver, turning in a great playoff run that nearly won the Preds the Cup upon his arrival. That was pretty much it though, shocking how quick he declined considering the era.

i didn't pay a lot of attention to that nashville team, but i'm curious how everybody takes that year/playoff run

was it the case of subban stepping into a really good 80s/90s washington-style top four and establishing himself as the clear best one

or subban stepping into that really good top four, getting an elite defensive partner in ekholm, and that support of both ekholm and an elite 1a pair of josi/ellis helping him to a couple really really good years before his steep decline?

 

[shadow1]

Of course he does. HHOF isn't just for all-time greats, plenty of merely very good player there. People in general 1) care too much about the HHOF, and 2) overrates its exclusiveness. Even if you think his peak Norris record overrates him a bit against his peers (which I would agree with) he's still got a Norris Trophy, two more top 3 Norris finishes, an Olympic Gold (yeah, he barely played, but still shows on paper), made the SCFs as a key player, and on top of that brings a lot of fame to the table.

You're right in that I can't technically say he has "no chance", but it would be a shocker if he got in.

Subban was no doubt an All-Star player for many years. But he's retiring due to ability at the conclusion of his age-32 season, and reached neither the 1000 game nor 500 point plateau. I know not everything is about longevity, but it doesn't help when his game hit a brick wall in his late 20's.

 

[The Panther]

He needs to be a GM for a long time without accomplishing anything first.

In fairness, Lowe did win the Conference Championship (Cup Finals appearance) as GM, which is more than the 5 GMs since him have done. So, he did accomplish rather a lot... one time.

But yeah, other than that one season, his tenure was largely a bust. The only good thing for his legacy is that he was followed by Tambellini and Chiarelli, so he looks great by comparison (as would Mike Milbury).

 

[The Panther]

Subban was no doubt an All-Star player for many years.

Three years to be exact. Over a six-year period.

Outside of those three seasons, Subban was never considered one of the top-13 (by Norris results) defencemen in the NHL. To put it another way, in 9 of his 12 seasons (75% of his career) he wasn't a top-13 defenceman, let alone an All Star.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Im surprised how low many people rank him so far

Would it be too far to say hes a lock for the most disappointing player ever given his first 5 years?

 

[Stephen]

I find it's somewhat difficult to put PK Subban into a general cluster of historical players due to the Montreal market celebrity factor, the premature decline, sudden retirement and randomly a Norris Trophy. For example, where would he rank among the following players:

Randy Carlyle (Norris), Dion Phaneuf (early career sizzle x big market distortion), Andrei Markov (modern Canadiens great), Paul Reinhart? (Unusually brief career).

 

[Gurglesons]

I find it's somewhat difficult to put PK Subban into a general cluster of historical players due to the Montreal market celebrity factor, the premature decline, sudden retirement and randomly a Norris Trophy. For example, where would he rank among the following players:

Randy Carlyle (Norris), Dion Phaneuf (early career sizzle x big market distortion), Andrei Markov (modern Canadiens great), Paul Reinhart? (Unusually brief career).

IMO above them all easily.

Carlyle is the closest probably.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Im surprised how low many people rank him so far

Would it be too far to say hes a lock for the most disappointing player ever given his first 5 years?

dany heatley?

upthread i compared subban to roenick for career arc, only with an abrupt stop at year 12

who else belongs in this conversation? jimmy carson probably wins this hands down