PK Subban has retired - does he make the hall of fame, and where does he rank all-time?

[pnep]

Larry Murphy and Doug Wilson are the last two modern players on that HoH list, and I'd put Subban a bit below those guys.

I view Subban much like Cam Neely - a brief, but very high peak where they were top-3/4 at their positions for ~3-5

Anyways, it would be peak "Old boys club" for Kevin Lowe to have been inducted but not PK.

Murphy Larry -- 1980-81 -- 2000-01 -- 21 -- D -- 985,25 HHOF Monitor PTS
Lowe Kevin -- 1979-80 -- 1997-98 -- D -- 795,4 HHOF Monitor PTS
Neely Cam -- 1983-84 -- 1995-96 -- 13 -- RW -- 771,5 HHOF Monitor PTS
Wilson Doug -- 1977-78 -- 1992-93 -- D -- 739 HHOF Monitor PTS

Subban P.K. -- 2009-10 -- 2021-22 -- D -- ~680 HHOF Monitor PTS


Worst players in the Hall of Fame (at 2006)

 

[Albatros]

Subban was more notable and at least no worse than some players already in the HHoF, but I wouldn't favor adding even more relatively weak cases just because some others made it with questionable merits. Hopefully the Habs and the Predators will find a way to adequately honor his career though. Montréal has seen 6 Norris winners over the years, more than any other team but still it's not a big number. Subban as one of them has his place in history.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

if jeremy roenick had abruptly retired in 2001 instead of signing with philadelphia, would that be comparable to subban's career?

908 games, 408 goals, 947 pts as a center (13th in scoring over 12 years, not counting his pre-rookie year)

934 games, 115 goals, 467 pts as a dman (12th in dman scoring over 12 years, not counting his pre-rookie blip)

roenick: 100 playoff games, 44 goals, 95 pts (21st in scoring over 13 years, counting his pre-rookie run, 20th if you don't count it)

subban: 96 playoff games, 18 goals, 62 pts (7th in dman scoring over 13 years, counting his pre-rookie run)

obviously the norris and two other post-season all-star nods change things, but for era is being a top 5 center three times (not counting the later phoenix one against DPE competition) *almost* comparable to being a top 3 dman three times?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Doughty, not Seabrook. Hamhuis played almost every game but barely saw the ice.

oh right, i'm mixing up 2010 and 2014.

so subban was behind two guys who were better than him, doughty and weber, plus a guy who was probably his equal but then pietrangelo had the bouwmeester factor going for him.

makes sense that they went four deep on the left side, instead of the right, though. between bouwmeester, vlasic, and hamhuis, that's three wild cards relative to that level of competition, with only keith as the bona fide stud. whereas zero questions about doughty, weber, or pietro/subban.

in any event, a numbers game.

 

[MeHateHe]

It sounds like a contradiction immediately but if Subban retired after his time with Nashville or if he played another five seasons, I'd say he'd be more in line for a HHOF spot. If you're among the best at your position for a few years and go out on top OR hang around forever, it's easier for people to think you've had a hall-of-fame career.

With Subban, it seems that he was very good during much of his time in Montreal (penchant for brain farts notwithstanding) and for at least the first few years in Nashville, but his last few seasons have been forgettable at best.

You could have the Mike Bossy example, with a player who was brilliant for a short career, or the Kevin Lowe example, with a player who was very good for a stint, and hung around forever. Subban was good for a while, and then middling for a while, and now has retired. I don't think he's there.

 

[overpass]

Re: Subban's lack of playing time for Team Canada, I got the feeling that Subban was a player who could really carry the play and dominate against average players, but didn't stand out as much with or against the best. That's how he won his Norris in 2013, playing weaker opposition and dominating play.

His peers Doughty and Karlsson, who were at their best when playing with and against the best players. While Karlsson rarely had the chance to play with top end offensive talent in Ottawa, he and Jason Spezza had a special connection in the 2011-12 season where you could tell they were both seeing the game at a higher level than anyone else, and they could find each other anywhere on the ice. I also think of the way Karlsson stood out on a skilled Team Sweden in 2014, even though his mobility wasn't fully back after the Achilles injury, and the way he always stepped up defensively against Alex Ovechkin. Doughty has long had a rep for coasting in the regular season and then bringing it in the playoffs as well as international play. Subban was consistently effective in the regular season, and showed in 2018 that he was a valuable player in a playoff setting as well, but I don't know if he would have been as good as some of his peers in a Team Canada type setting.

Maybe there's a place in the HOF for his 6 year peak as very effective and entertaining defenceman. Certainly a peak Norris finish of 1-3-3 is a good start for a HOF case. I would say though that while he may have deserved those awards for his regular season performance, I think they overstate his place among the top defencemen of his generation. I don't think he was ever the best, and maybe not top 3 either, when you look beyond the regular season to include playoff and international play.

 

[Big Phil]

HOF? Sure if he buys a ticket

Top 200 players? Nope

I think putting him on the tail end of a Top 60 defensemen is the only argument that can be made and even that one is tough

There has got to be 60 defensemen in NHL history better than him. I think that is actually super generous to him in a way.

He just dropped like a stone so fast after Nashville. Who knows, if he keeps hanging around and putting up the years he had in Montreal (some of them) and Nashville (again, some of them) then he has a case. But what did he do? He was added begrudgingly on the 2014 Olympic team by Mike Babcock despite winning a Norris the previous year. But he played just one game. He wasn't the reliable guy Babcock wanted on that team for his plan to work, and it makes sense. Could PK stick to a system? And if not, was he good enough to be unleashed on his own to make a difference? Paul Coffey was a defenseman that could get away with that sort of thing, because you knew his offense made up for whatever else he lacked, and he also knew how to buckle down when the chips were down.

I tried to like PK's personality. Look, off the ice I get the feeling I'd get along with him. He might be fun to party with. But it wasn't even that he was a Hab (I'm a Leaf fan) that I didn't like him. I felt that way in Nashville as well when he went there. The guy he was traded for (Weber) will be in the HHOF. PK won't. It was just his persona on the ice. When you are that cocky, you have to be insanely good, and he wasn't. And there are too many guys from his era that may not make it in. Kris Letang certainly has plenty of detractors for that, I think he has a shot, but the truth is PK is miles behind Letang. Ditto Weber. Roman Josi has long become closer to the HHOF as well.

PK just had a knack for cough ups, and defensive lapses. If he is your best defenseman I don't like those odds. If he is your 2nd or 3rd best? Yeah, sure. But here he is in the prime of his career and he wasn't picked for the 2016 World Cup team, and there was not an outcry about it (as time went on someone like Letang was thought of as a notable omission.)

He'll annoy us as a sportscaster for years to come, is my guess. But he is not a HHOFer.

 

[Big Phil]

Maybe this is nitpicking, but Hagelin's empty netter that sealed the Cup win in 2017 for the Pens has always been a PK moment that bugged me. I was cheering for Pittsburgh, so I was glad to see it, but just the lack of effort to chase Hagelin summed it up. Subban just gives up. I do realize Josi on the other side wasn't tearing down the ice either once Hagelin had the breakaway, but we aren't doing a Josi thread right now. Anything can happen, there is 20 seconds left, the puck can hop over his stick, he can trip, he can somehow miss the net, anything. Subban perhaps chasing him hard could cause him to get nervous and fumble the puck. I don't know. It just always has bothered me. There are those clips of a player you can't always forget (Gonchar letting Travis Moen walk around him without any pressure in 2010), this is one of them.

 

[pnep]

if jeremy roenick had abruptly retired in 2001 instead of signing with philadelphia, would that be comparable to subban's career?

yep

Subban P.K. -- 2009-10 -- 2021-22 -- D -- ~680 HHOF Monitor PTS
Roenick Jeremy -- 1988-89 -- 2000-01 -- C -- 663.5 HHOF Monitor PTS


Roenick Jeremy -- 1988-89 -- 2008-09 -- C -- ~857 HHOF Monitor PTS

 

[VanIslander]

Look back 50 years from now...

One Norris trophy
Two other Norris finalist nods
....
Retired at age 32?

Zero cups or other accolades other than a Masterton applaud aside comps like hard work and playing through injury.

He is nowhere near Hall worthy.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Look back 50 years from now...

One Norris trophy
Two other Norris finalist nods
....
Retired at age 32?

Zero cups or other accolades other than a Masterton applaud aside comps like hard work and playing through injury.

He is nowhere near Hall worthy.

Looking back 50 years from now, Jacques Laperierre’s resume looks similar to Subban’s, except for the multiple cups, not falling off a cliff for several seasons, style of play, and… But the one Norris, window of being an all-star player and retiring at 32 checks out. I realize players didn’t usually have as long careers back then as they’re having now.

(Looking back 50 years, I’m more seriously wondering how Subban compares to a Harry Howell, to move away from the Kevin Lowe or Leo Boivin comps).

 

[VanIslander]

Note:

I drafted PK Subban 102nd among dmen in this year's ATD's (in the 2022 MLD - after a ton of greats in the main ATD).

I love the guy. He disappointed. A hard fail on HOF entry.

 

[pnep]

I’m more seriously wondering how Subban compares to a Harry Howell, to move away from the Kevin Lowe or Leo Boivin comps

Howell Harry -- 1952-53 -- 1972-73 -- 21 -- D -- 694,6 HHOF Monitor PTS
Subban P.K. -- 2009-10 -- 2021-22 -- D -- ~680 HHOF Monitor PTS
Boivin Leo -- 1951-52 -- 1969-70 -- 19 -- D -- 496,9 HHOF Monitor PTS

 

[bobholly39]

Re: Subban's lack of playing time for Team Canada, I got the feeling that Subban was a player who could really carry the play and dominate against average players, but didn't stand out as much with or against the best. That's how he won his Norris in 2013, playing weaker opposition and dominating play.

His peers Doughty and Karlsson, who were at their best when playing with and against the best players. While Karlsson rarely had the chance to play with top end offensive talent in Ottawa, he and Jason Spezza had a special connection in the 2011-12 season where you could tell they were both seeing the game at a higher level than anyone else, and they could find each other anywhere on the ice. I also think of the way Karlsson stood out on a skilled Team Sweden in 2014, even though his mobility wasn't fully back after the Achilles injury, and the way he always stepped up defensively against Alex Ovechkin. Doughty has long had a rep for coasting in the regular season and then bringing it in the playoffs as well as international play. Subban was consistently effective in the regular season, and showed in 2018 that he was a valuable player in a playoff setting as well, but I don't know if he would have been as good as some of his peers in a Team Canada type setting.

Maybe there's a place in the HOF for his 6 year peak as very effective and entertaining defenceman. Certainly a peak Norris finish of 1-3-3 is a good start for a HOF case. I would say though that while he may have deserved those awards for his regular season performance, I think they overstate his place among the top defencemen of his generation. I don't think he was ever the best, and maybe not top 3 either, when you look beyond the regular season to include playoff and international play.

The bolded seems like.....a made up claim just because?

PK did win a Norris.
He also stepped up huge in the playoffs - both in Montreal and in Nashville. He was probably Montreal's best skater in every playoff run he participated in, and also in Nashville's.

Why wouldn't he dominate or stand out against the best? Revisionist history big time with this post.

Subban didn't play the Olympics, but it had nothing to do with his ability or performance level. It had to do with coaching, and Babcock's outdated coaching mentality. He was never given a chance - maybe if he had been given a chance, and played poorly, your post would at least have some merit, but it's not the case.

 

[overpass]

The bolded seems like.....a made up claim just because?

PK did win a Norris.
He also stepped up huge in the playoffs - both in Montreal and in Nashville. He was probably Montreal's best skater in every playoff run he participated in, and also in Nashville's.

Why wouldn't he dominate or stand out against the best? Revisionist history big time with this post.

Subban didn't play the Olympics, but it had nothing to do with his ability or performance level. It had to do with coaching, and Babcock's outdated coaching mentality. He was never given a chance - maybe if he had been given a chance, and played poorly, your post would at least have some merit, but it's not the case.

Of course I could be wrong. I’m sure you and others here have watched more of Subban’s career than I have. Were there any star opponents against whom he really elevated his game? Any star teammates he really clicked with so they were more than the sum of their parts?

In the playoffs, I don’t think he was bad, but when we voted on the top 5 playoff runs by defencemen in the past decade, I don’t think he got one vote. I’m not sure his best playoff run in 2017 would make my top 10 from the last decade. That matters when talking about the HHOF.

 

[sr edler]

subban and hamhuis played different sides

my memory is subban was behind weber (better than him), pietrangelo (arguably his equal, but they brought pietro’s partner bouwmeester so for the short tournament they would have established chemistry), and seabrook (the tagalong partner of another dman better than subban: duncan keith)

hamhuis iirc also was a scratch every game or almost. he was behind keith, j-bo, and vlasic. i would argue he and vlasic were basically equals at the time and hamhuis maybe would have been better on international ice because of his skating. ironically hamhuis had been weber’s partner in nashville before rhan suter.

Yeah, I don't think you can judge someone's whole career for missing one single tournament, especially against somewhat tougher internal competition or whatever, but then he was left off the 2016 World Cup team too, and that's a team Brent Burns made who's hardly known as a defensive stalwart or as especially Babcockian.

Hedman was held off the Swedish 2014 Olympic team for Edler with a 2-game suspension baggage, but then he turned into Hedmonster in response. Subban was never really close to Hedmonster level, even when he won a Norris.

Maybe this is nitpicking, but Hagelin's empty netter that sealed the Cup win in 2017 for the Pens has always been a PK moment that bugged me. I was cheering for Pittsburgh, so I was glad to see it, but just the lack of effort to chase Hagelin summed it up. Subban just gives up. I do realize Josi on the other side wasn't tearing down the ice either once Hagelin had the breakaway, but we aren't doing a Josi thread right now. Anything can happen, there is 20 seconds left, the puck can hop over his stick, he can trip, he can somehow miss the net, anything. Subban perhaps chasing him hard could cause him to get nervous and fumble the puck. I don't know. It just always has bothered me. There are those clips of a player you can't always forget (Gonchar letting Travis Moen walk around him without any pressure in 2010), this is one of them.

But Hagelin was a speed demon.

Did you know Hagelin's great-grandfather invented encryption machines? And that his great-great-grandfather worked for the famous Nobel family in present day Azerbaijan?

You can say his skating was dynamite.

 

[sr edler]

He has no chance of making the HHOF.

Of course he does. HHOF isn't just for all-time greats, plenty of merely very good player there. People in general 1) care too much about the HHOF, and 2) overrates its exclusiveness. Even if you think his peak Norris record overrates him a bit against his peers (which I would agree with) he's still got a Norris Trophy, two more top 3 Norris finishes, an Olympic Gold (yeah, he barely played, but still shows on paper), made the SCFs as a key player, and on top of that brings a lot of fame to the table.

There has got to be 60 defensemen in NHL history better than him.

It's not even only about the NHL. Add pre-NHL (Hod Stuart, Mike Grant, Harvey Pulford, Moose Johnson) guys and European guys (Fetisov, Suchy, et cetera) and he's not even close to top 60.

 

[Hobnobs]

Maybe this is nitpicking, but Hagelin's empty netter that sealed the Cup win in 2017 for the Pens has always been a PK moment that bugged me. I was cheering for Pittsburgh, so I was glad to see it, but just the lack of effort to chase Hagelin summed it up. Subban just gives up. I do realize Josi on the other side wasn't tearing down the ice either once Hagelin had the breakaway, but we aren't doing a Josi thread right now. Anything can happen, there is 20 seconds left, the puck can hop over his stick, he can trip, he can somehow miss the net, anything. Subban perhaps chasing him hard could cause him to get nervous and fumble the puck. I don't know. It just always has bothered me. There are those clips of a player you can't always forget (Gonchar letting Travis Moen walk around him without any pressure in 2010), this is one of them.

You're right. This is nitpicking.

 

[hypereconomist]

I wouldn't necessarily advocate for Subban to be in the HHOF due to his short six-year peak and how quickly he declined, but can any of us genuinely argue that he's worse than Zubov, Housley, or any other questionable dman inductions?

AS: 1, 1, 2
Norris: 1, 3, 3
Showed up when it mattered with three quality playoff runs (13-14, 16-17, 17-18)
Selected to the 2014 Olympic team based on his talent-level in spite of Babcock's dislike for him

Also consider:
- Philanthropy - e.g. the ongoing outreach that he does, his massive $10M donation to the Montreal Children's Hospital, etc.
- He is the best full black (note: not mixed-race like Iginla) hockey player in NHL history
- His popularity amongst fans, especially the younger generation (millennial and younger). In 2019, I was walking Saint Laurent Boulevard and saw a freshly minted and large mural of Subban on the side of a building...that's how popular he is

It is the hockey hall of fame. It's unfortunate that Subban didn't peak as long as the true all-time greats, but he's such a good ambassador for the game that I don't know that we should look at his induction as a blight on the quality of the HHOF if he is inducted as a player

 

[sr edler]

but can any of us genuinely argue that he's worse than Zubov

Yes, clearly worse than Zubov. Zubov is generally underrated by his Norris record, Subban's a bit overrated by his.

If Norris record is Bible speak, then why are we even trying to present our own opinions on this site. Might as well just copy and paste what the PHWA thinks on everything.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I think the 2012-2018 time period had some offensive defenseman get large Norris votes largely on the basis that scoring was low and they stood out.

Subban, Burns, and Giordano stick out. Even Karlsson and Letang to a certain extent.

 

[pnep]

but can any of us genuinely argue that he's worse than Zubov, Housley, or any other questionable dman inductions?

Housley Phil -- 1982-83 -- 2002-03 -- D -- 745 HHOF Monitor PTS
Zubov Sergei -- 1992-93 -- 2008-09 -- D -- ~725 HHOF Monitor PTS
Subban P.K. -- 2009-10 -- 2021-22 -- D -- ~680 HHOF Monitor PTS

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

it doesn't matter much, if at all for a HHOF case, but when a guy was memorable at the WJC that always buys him a lot of rope with me later though his career, whether they become a jonathan toews or level off as a jordan eberle, or even a jordin tootoo.

imo subban was absolutely one of the memorable WJC performances of his era.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Yes, clearly worse than Zubov. Zubov is generally underrated by his Norris record, Subban's a bit overrated by his.

If Norris record is Bible speak, then why are we even trying to present our own opinions on this site. Might as well just copy and paste what the PHWA thinks on everything.

Yeah, I mean we all watched the guy's entire career. What a bunch of random beat writers thought about it shouldn't have a huge bearing on somebody's opinion, should it?

Subban could drive play offensively and had great value to defensive teams that lacked reliable scorers up front. Montreal and Nashville were perfect fits. I don't think he was ever close to being the best defenseman in the league though, Norris record be damned. Maybe a top 10 guy based on his offense in his best three or four seasons, that's about as far as I'd go. High point totals, flashy plays, and Montreal hype elevated perceptions in the media.

If I allow that my own perception of PK is too low and split the difference between that and somebody who gave him top 3 Norris votes, we're still talking about a player that seemingly equates to a short-career version of Zubov or Housley. The real life long-career versions of those players were considered either very borderline inductions or outright mistakes by a lot people.

I think moreso than the Norris win, the biggest feather in Subban's cap is his first year in Nashville. This was a solid team that could never quite get over the hump, and they traded away their franchise cornerstone for Subban. That's a ton of pressure, and he did deliver, turning in a great playoff run that nearly won the Preds the Cup upon his arrival. That was pretty much it though, shocking how quick he declined considering the era.

Props to the man for his humanitarian contributions off the ice, but I don't think that should be something that elevates you to the Hall of Fame if you weren't right on the cusp of it to begin with, and I think it's a real reach to argue Subban is even in that "pretty close" category. We gonna discuss Mark Giordano or Keith Yandle when they retire? I guess one thing you can say is Kevin Lowe was a ridiculous induction, and Lowe was well-known for his charitable efforts off the ice. Did that push Lowe over the line? Possibly, but I think it was more likely Cup counting.

 

[seventieslord]

I think the 2012-2018 time period had some offensive defenseman get large Norris votes largely on the basis that scoring was low and they stood out.

Subban, Burns, and Giordano stick out. Even Karlsson and Letang to a certain extent.

Even in the few years before that, Yandle, Visnovsky, Ehrhoff and Streit to name a few more...