Value of: Pierre Engvall

[Sidney the Kidney]

Neck size for neck size, I'd say Tyler Myers.

If Engvall and Chara had normal sized necks, would either guy even be 6'0?

 

[supermann_98]

Edit wrong thread

 

[Morgs]

Again, as evidenced in this thread; easily the most underrated forward on the Leafs.

Fantastic defensively, one of the best penalty killers in the league in 2019-20, good in transition, not a blackhole offensively, and has a bit of a scoring touch when he's hot. Not to mention the dude is gigantic and is a great skater regardless of size. I fully believe that Keefe doesn't like him for whatever reason (my guess is lack of physicality and consistency), but the guy is such an effective player in virtually every respect and is a perfect bottom-6 player for any team. Didn't have a great 2020-21, but he had moments of being very good.

I don't expect he'll make the team (again) even though he's one of the best 12 forwards, and I expect he'll be acquired by some team for virtually nothing (or nothing if it's on waivers) and they'll be surprised how quietly effective he is.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Would not be too surprised if he isn't qualified. Has speed and size but no brains

 

[Drake1588]

A lot of players, spread across every team's system, can do what he does for about $750K. That's exactly what the Leafs want to do, and it's what other teams will plan to do too. Simply, I don't think there is a market for him. He makes too much for a fourth liner/13th forward.

He's also got arbitration rights as a RFA this summer. No one will want to touch him before they know what they're looking at, contract wise.

 

[Morgs]

A lot of players, spread across every team's system, can do what he does for about $750K. That's exactly what the Leafs want to do, and it's what other teams will plan to do too. Simply, I don't think there is a market for him. He makes too much for a fourth liner/13th forward.

He's also got arbitration rights as a RFA this summer. No one will want to touch him before they know what they're looking at, contract wise.

Would not be too surprised if he isn't qualified. Has speed and size but no brains

Two absurdly incorrect posts in a row. Wow.

 

[shortfuze]

We might get a 7th.
Other GMs aren’t stupid. They know what our cap situation and depth is. They know he will likely hit waivers. They won’t pay much if they think they will have a chance to get him for free.

Maybe one offers a late round pick just so they could get him without worrying a lower seeded team claims him. But then again most of the teams that would want him would already be those lower seeded teams.

They will if they know other teams have a chance to grab him first.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Two absurdly incorrect posts in a row. Wow.

Homer glasses firmly on I see

 

[Morgs]

Homer glasses firmly on I see

Haha. Or you know, he's having a ridiculously good season.

His all situations P/60 is basically tied with guys like Kopitar, Cirelli, DeBrincat, and Puljujarvi, while being the primary line driver on the 8th best line in the league based on xGF% (that's played over 100 minutes together). Not to mention that line gets absolutely BURIED in the dzone and comes away dominant at both ends.

 

[banks]

He's not flashy, and doesn't have a lot of offensive ability. And most teams won't want to pay more than league minimum for a player who is mostly going to be used in a defensive role. So his value is low.

But he is an effective forward. There should be no denying that. His line has been fantastic at taking the play from their end of the ice to the other against top competition. That's a useful thing. I'd expect he'd return a late pick, not just futures or a waiver claim.

Riley Nash was claimed on waivers and traded for future considerations this season. Engvall is a similar type of player, but far better. Nash gets under 10 minutes a game, or gets scratched, while putting up one point every 10 games. Engvall plays 12 minutes, and gets a point every 3 games.

 

[Morgs]

He's not flashy, and doesn't have a lot of offensive ability. And most teams won't want to pay more than league minimum for a player who is mostly going to be used in a defensive role. So his value is low.

But he is an effective forward. There should be no denying that. His line has been fantastic at taking the play from their end of the ice to the other against top competition. That's a useful thing. I'd expect he'd return a late pick, not just futures or a waiver claim.

Riley Nash was claimed on waivers and traded for future considerations this season. Engvall is a similar type of player, but far better. Nash gets under 10 minutes a game, or gets scratched, while putting up one point every 10 games. Engvall plays 12 minutes, and gets a point every 3 games.

He should be worth a hell of a lot more than that, especially to the Leafs. Like we're talking about a league where guys like Goodrow are traded for huge returns mainly due to their defensive play with the ability to chip in offensively. Sure he might not hit, but the difference between those kinds of guys and Engvall isn't massive (I'd even argue he's better than Goodrow).

If that's his value league wide, the Leafs should rightfully keep him. Not to mention the Leafs should be keeping him because they could use 6 guys like him in their bottom-6.

 

[banks]

He should be worth a hell of a lot more than that, especially to the Leafs. Like we're talking about a league where guys like Goodrow are traded for huge returns mainly due to their defensive play with the ability to chip in offensively. Sure he might not hit, but the difference between those kinds of guys and Engvall isn't massive (I'd even argue he's better than Goodrow).

If that's his value league wide, the Leafs should rightfully keep him. Not to mention the Leafs should be keeping him because they could use 6 guys like him in their bottom-6.

View attachment 522902

I'd agree with this point whole heartedly. Toronto will be happy to keep him.

I haven't always been a fan of Engvall, but his line has just been working so well recently. I'm not sure his numbers your posting are all his own doing, as the entire line seems to be smelling like a rose. So I don't want to build him up too much. And I don't like the potential number for an extension. That's my reservation, and why I think any expectation for trade return will have to be tempered.

But the best thing to do for Toronto is keep him, without question.

 

[MarkovsKnee]

Probably should get $2.5m-$3m on a new contract. Weird looking dude on the ice, but seems effective. He reminds me of Peter Crouch whenever I see him on the ice.

 

[Morgs]

I'd agree with this point whole heartedly. Toronto will be happy to keep him.

I haven't always been a fan of Engvall, but his line has just been working so well recently. I'm not sure his numbers your posting are all his own doing, as the entire line seems to be smelling like a rose. So I don't want to build him up too much. And I don't like the potential number for an extension. That's my reservation, and why I think any expectation for trade return will have to be tempered.

But the best thing to do for Toronto is keep him, without question.

The thing is that he's the guy who makes everyone look great in the bottom-6. Here's the three of them with any combos they've had over 30 minutes at 5v5.

Kampf has only been "great" with his xG with Engvall on his line. Regardless of Mik/Kase, theyre dominant. Lets remember he basically starts in the defensive zone every shift regardleas of who he plays with. With Kase/Ritchie they had a stretch of pretty good, but it was for only 35 minutes.

Mikheyev has only played with two lines above 30 minutes. One is terrible and gets crushed, the other is 8th in the league in xGF% and buried in the defensive zone.

Engvall has played with 3 combos this year. All three have been great, and one is with the corpse of Spezza and Simmonds, who look WASHED. The other with Kampf and Kase actually works with him, unlike Mik, but the combo of the 3 is easily the best fit. He's just the one guy who constantly looks great no matter who or where he plays and nobody else in the bottom-6 looks even competent without him.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Two absurdly incorrect posts in a row. Wow.

How so?

 

[Morgs]

How so?

Read after your post or do some research yourself.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Read after your post or do some research yourself.

He's having a decent season statistically, still has no brains. The guy nearly ended Kase's career earlier this year with that suicide pass into Zadorov

 

[Morgs]

He's having a decent season statistically, still has no brains. The guy nearly ended Kase's career earlier this year with that suicide pass into Zadorov

No brains yet statistically effective in virtually every respect while being fed defensive zone starts at an extremely high rate. One bad play that *almost* caused injury obviously outweighs the amazing season so yeah, how could he get qualified. Tbh we should cut Kerfoot too for that suicide pass to Nylander against the Habs.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

No brains yet statistically effective in virtually every respect while being fed defensive zone starts at an extremely high rate. One bad play that *almost* caused injury obviously outweighs the amazing season so yeah, how could he get qualified. Tbh we should cut Kerfoot too for that suicide pass to Nylander against the Habs.

Its not just 1 play, there are plenty of times where he just does stupid shit. But he if you think he is worth paying nearly 2M to then by all means

 

[Voodoo Child]

Everybody gets smoked like Zadorov on Kase 3 or 4 times in their career, it sure is weird how it seems to happen to him every 10-15 games.

Another entry in ‘worth more to his team than to anyone else.’

I don’t think he has huge potential, a lot of good tools, but if he brought it with intensity a little more often he might be able to get 20.

If you picked a guy in the 7th and at 25, 6’5 215 he had 61-11-12-23, was a fixture on the PK and you could qualify him for probably 2 mil, unless you had to cut some ballast would you just say ‘You can have him for a 6th’?

Realistically he’s probably worth a 4th, but could you easily find someone who does what he does for cheaper?

Maybe, but unless you have a guy in the wings then why do that to yourself?

 

[seanlinden]

Engvall of course has incredible analytics for $1.25m, but I have to agree with the posters that say his value is minimal.

When teams "pay" for 3rd line / defensive talent, they generally want some element of a physical game; and it is those guys that tend to get the big premiums. Engvall of course is 6'5, but there's absolutely no physical element to his game.

He might get $2m in arbitration, and personally, I think it would be foolish for the Leafs to dedicate $2m to him. They've gotta "diamond in the rough" hunting in the $1m range.

That being said, I can also see a team with a decent amount of cap space taking a liking to him, and hoping that after about 170 games in the league, some offence starts to come... sign him to a 3 year deal in the mid 2s and the Leafs get a 4th or 5th for him.

 

[bossram]

Its not just 1 play, there are plenty of times where he just does stupid shit. But he if you think he is worth paying nearly 2M to then by all means

Engvall of course has incredible analytics for $1.25m, but I have to agree with the posters that say his value is minimal.

When teams "pay" for 3rd line / defensive talent, they generally want some element of a physical game; and it is those guys that tend to get the big premiums. Engvall of course is 6'5, but there's absolutely no physical element to his game.

He might get $2m in arbitration, and personally, I think it would be foolish for the Leafs to dedicate $2m to him. They've gotta "diamond in the rough" hunting in the $1m range.

That being said, I can also see a team with a decent amount of cap space taking a liking to him, and hoping that after about 170 games in the league, some offence starts to come... sign him to a 3 year deal in the mid 2s and the Leafs get a 4th or 5th for him.

The takes in this thread are absolutely wild. Just amazing. Really shows people will invent whatever narrative they want to believe, despite all evidence opposed to it.

Want a guy that has top-notch defensive talent? Yeah, every line Engvall plays on coincidentally becomes a territorially dominant shutdown line, despite getting buried in the defensive zone. Oh, but he's not "physical" enough so he can't possibly be a shutdown guy.

Leafs really need a guy that can bring some offense in their bottom-six? Engvall produces at 5-on5 at a rate similar to Bo Horvat and Anze Kopitar. Do people want to say those guys aren't top-six forwards and don't bring offense? Because they have the same 5-on-5 P/60 as Engvall.

Premium grinders (e.g. Goodrow, Brandon Tanev) are going for $3+M on the open market. For the price the Leafs have Engvall, and him still being an RFA, he provides big surplus value. A Swiss army knife player that can play any role and do it well.

 

[seanlinden]

The takes in this thread are absolutely wild. Just amazing. Really shows people will invent whatever narrative they want to believe, despite all evidence opposed to it.

Want a guy that has top-notch defensive talent? Yeah, every line Engvall plays on coincidentally becomes a territorially dominant shutdown line, despite getting buried in the defensive zone. Oh, but he's not "physical" enough so he can't possibly be a shutdown guy.

Leafs really need a guy that can bring some offense in their bottom-six? Engvall produces at 5-on5 at a rate similar to Bo Horvat and Anze Kopitar. Do people want to say those guys aren't top-six forwards and don't bring offense? Because they have the same 5-on-5 P/60 as Engvall.

Premium grinders (e.g. Goodrow, Brandon Tanev) are going for $3+M on the open market. For the price the Leafs have Engvall, and him still being an RFA, he provides big surplus value. A Swiss army knife player that can play any role and do it well.

No question he's an excellent defensive player.

The CHALLENGE is... they just are not able to fetch the "premiums" that the physical / pest / energy guys do. Teams will often only want to allocate around a $1m or less for that kind of player because they think they can "make one" out of any young forward with some decent skating ability.

At $1.25m, at the deadline, yes, he's a player that a team would love to add -- largely because of his versatility. At $2m+ in the offseason, there are other more exciting ways to spend your money.

 

[bossram]

No question he's an excellent defensive player.

The CHALLENGE is... they just are not able to fetch the "premiums" that the physical / pest / energy guys do. Teams will often only want to allocate around a $1m or less for that kind of player because they think they can "make one" out of any young forward with some decent skating ability.

At $1.25m, at the deadline, yes, he's a player that a team would love to add -- largely because of his versatility. At $2m+ in the offseason, there are other more exciting ways to spend your money.

Having a guy who's going to give you top-six rate production and high-end defensive play provides a lot more value than a $2M price tag would indicate.

There are many, many, many worse players to spend more than $2M on (see Nick Ritchie). Teams still pay for premium grinders, even when they're not even good anymore (look at Nick Foligno in Boston). If Engvall gets $2M on his next contract, that is fantastic for Toronto.

 

[seanlinden]

Having a guy who's going to give you top-six rate production and high-end defensive play provides a lot more value than a $2M price tag would indicate.

There are many, many, many worse players to spend more than $2M on (see Nick Ritchie). Teams still pay for premium grinders, even when they're not even good anymore (look at Nick Foligno in Boston). If Engvall gets $2M on his next contract, that is fantastic for Toronto.

Not necessarily. Contracts are not neccessarily based on "performance" -- they're based on what GMs think the player will bring.

You can argue (likelyfully successfully) that Engvall at $2m does more than Foligno at $3m or Ritchie at $2.5m.

However, that doesn't mean the Leafs couldn't get most/all of what Engvall does for somebody making $1m or less.