Value of: Pierre Engvall

[bossram]

Not necessarily. Contracts are not neccessarily based on "performance" -- they're based on what GMs think the player will bring.

You can argue (likelyfully successfully) that Engvall at $2m does more than Foligno at $3m or Ritchie at $2.5m.

However, that doesn't mean the Leafs couldn't get most/all of what Engvall does for somebody making $1m or less.

This is exactly what I mean. Engvall's actual on-ice value is much higher than his perceived value. This is why you'd want to keep him around. If the Leafs were to go out and find a premium grinder to replace Engvall, they'd be paying more.

And no, I do not think there will be a player making $1M or less, available on the open market, who has a history of elite defensive play and top-six calibre even-strength production. Teams like the Leafs and Panthers have been good at finding cheap bargain players, but the more teams mine for those players, the fewer diamonds will be left around.

 

[seanlinden]

This is exactly what I mean. Engvall's actual on-ice value is much higher than his perceived value. This is why you'd want to keep him around. If the Leafs were to go out and find a premium grinder to replace Engvall, they'd be paying more.

And no, I do not think there will be a player making $1M or less, available on the open market, who has a history of elite defensive play and top-six calibre even-strength production. Teams like the Leafs and Panthers have been good at finding cheap bargain players, but the more teams mine for those players, the fewer diamonds will be left around.

Not necessarily. It is very possible that the Leafs can replace Engvall for $1m or less. You may not / likely won't get a player with a "history" of doing that, but but even if you don't get one that does it fully, that $1m in savings can likely be used in more important ways.

 

[BeLeafing]

Quite honestly I think he is an underrated player and has a unique skillset. Extremely fast for a player of his size and can defend effectively. I don't think he deserves the hate he gets, but it does seem clear his time is probably nearing it's end on this team. I wouldn't expect more than a 6th or 7th round pick, and if I'm a team with roster space and cap room I would take that gamble.

Nice to see how he has come along since the time of this post I made was. The tools were always there, he just kept getting squeezed in the roster game and had trouble consistently cracking the lineup.

His value to Toronto is higher than he would ever fetch in trade now. That Engvall-Kampf-Mikheyev line is crucial to the teams success.

 

[Morgs]

This is exactly what I mean. Engvall's actual on-ice value is much higher than his perceived value. This is why you'd want to keep him around. If the Leafs were to go out and find a premium grinder to replace Engvall, they'd be paying more.

And no, I do not think there will be a player making $1M or less, available on the open market, who has a history of elite defensive play and top-six calibre even-strength production. Teams like the Leafs and Panthers have been good at finding cheap bargain players, but the more teams mine for those players, the fewer diamonds will be left around.

Funny how guys like him are so underrated league wide when an objectively similar player in Goodrow (except Goodrow is probably worse) is worth 3.6M (most people thought it was a bad contract), high draft picks in multiple trades, and considered one of the most vital pieces on a b2b cup winning team.

Hits & grit really obscure value to an insane extent. Especially when you can be a more effective and productive player than a guy with them.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Haha. Or you know, he's having a ridiculously good season.

His all situations P/60 is basically tied with guys like Kopitar, Cirelli, DeBrincat, and Puljujarvi, while being the primary line driver on the 8th best line in the league based on xGF% (that's played over 100 minutes together). Not to mention that line gets absolutely BURIED in the dzone and comes away dominant at both ends.

View attachment 522888

Still believing in magic beans, I see.

 

[Joe n]

Still believing in magic beans, I see.

These people keep saying he can be replaced for a million which is funny because the Leafs have been looking for years for someone like Engvall with no success.

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

Leafs need to keep that entire 3rd line intact. Trade kerfoot for picks and keep them together.

 

[RunItBackAgain]

Dont think he can justify anything more than 2-2.5/year. If I were him I’d look to sign a 2 year deal for cheap and hope the Leafs great offence can garner him a big raise afterwards.

 

[TheNumber4]

Again, as evidenced in this thread; easily the most underrated forward on the Leafs.

Fantastic defensively, one of the best penalty killers in the league in 2019-20, good in transition, not a blackhole offensively, and has a bit of a scoring touch when he's hot. Not to mention the dude is gigantic and is a great skater regardless of size. I fully believe that Keefe doesn't like him for whatever reason (my guess is lack of physicality and consistency), but the guy is such an effective player in virtually every respect and is a perfect bottom-6 player for any team. Didn't have a great 2020-21, but he had moments of being very good.

I don't expect he'll make the team (again) even though he's one of the best 12 forwards, and I expect he'll be acquired by some team for virtually nothing (or nothing if it's on waivers) and they'll be surprised how quietly effective he is.

Sounds like the greatest healthy scratch in League history. Sign me up.

 

[ULF_55]

Keeps on truckin!

Oh boy, how are they going to keep him under contract?

Just have to respect how patient Leafs' fans are.

 

[BlueBaron]

I don't know about this thread. What was the OP hoping for, a 3rd round pick? Is it worth trading him for less?

We do have Cap issues, no secret. We also have a good third line which Engvall is part of.

This is the type of player most of HF isn't going to see any value in. I hope we don't have to move him but until we know how we are spending our goalie money and what that damage is Engvall and others could be Cap casualties. This is one guy though I don't think we will get close to the value he has for us.

No one would pay it but I don't think I'd part with him for less than a 2nd unless he absolutely had to be moved.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

I don't know about this thread. What was the OP hoping for, a 3rd round pick? Is it worth trading him for less?

We do have Cap issues, no secret. We also have a good third line which Engvall is part of.

This is the type of player most of HF isn't going to see any value in. I hope we don't have to move him but until we know how we are spending our goalie money and what that damage is Engvall and others could be Cap casualties. This is one guy though I don't think we will get close to the value he has for us.

No one would pay it but I don't think I'd part with him for less than a 2nd unless he absolutely had to be moved.

No one would give up a 5th round pick for a dime/dozen 4th liner. Its easy to find these types of players during free agency or from within. The only time he might have value is at the TDL, when options are for more limited.

 

[BlueBaron]

No one would give up a 5th round pick for a dime/dozen 4th liner. Its easy to find these types of players during free agency or from within. The only time he might have value is at the TDL, when options are for more limited.

6' 5" guys (25 years old) who can skate and have decent hands are a dime dozen? What league do you watch?

I won't claim to know his value but I feel you might be a bit off. Also why demote him from the 3rd line?

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

No one would give up a 5th round pick for a dime/dozen 4th liner. Its easy to find these types of players during free agency or from within. The only time he might have value is at the TDL, when options are for more limited.

The entire Montreal team besides Suzuki caufield and Anderson are dime a dozen, that doesn't mean none would recieve less then a 5th in trade value. I mean look at kulak, hes the epitome of meh and he got a 2nd. Maybe hold off on sweeping generalizations, that way u may keep some form of credibility.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

The entire Montreal team besides Suzuki caufield and Anderson are dime a dozen, that doesn't mean none would recieve less then a 5th in trade value. I mean look at kulak, hes the epitome of meh and he got a 2nd. Maybe hold off on sweeping generalizations, that way u may keep some form of credibility.

Read my post again... Kulak got a ridiculously over-valued 2nd because he's a dman that was traded at the TDL. In the offseason, Kulak would get traded for didley squat. Which is what Engvall is worth in the offseason.

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

Read my post again... Kulak got a ridiculously over-valued 2nd because he's a dman that was traded at the TDL. In the offseason, Kulak would get traded for didley squat. Which is what Engvall is worth in the offseason.

In your opinion sure. The leafs in my opinion will keep him. Let's see who is right in the offseason.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

In your opinion sure. The leafs in my opinion will keep him. Let's see who is right in the offseason.

The right decision is to keep him because you would get didly squat by trading him in the offseason. Obviously the Leafs hold on to him because there is little value in a trade.

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

The right decision is to keep him because you would get didly squat by trading him in the offseason. Obviously the Leafs hold on to him because there is little value in a trade.

In your opinion. Speaking in absolutes without facts to back up your claim is lazy and dishonest, but if thats how you go about your posting well good luck with that.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

In your opinion. Speaking in absolutes without facts to back up your claim is lazy and dishonest, but if thats how you go about your posting well good luck with that.

Facts? My point is Engvall is a dime-a-dozen forward that has low value in the offseason. To back up my point i would need to point out all the trades that didn't happen because a player had low value. What's the point pointing out those facts.

How about this - if Engvall gets traded for a 3rd round pick or higher then i am wrong. If he gets traded for a 4th or later i am right. If he doesn't get traded then i am right.

 

[Amadeus]

Really good bottom two line player in the making. He's really strong already and is started to play a more physical game now. Also is really good on the PK and can provide some goals as well. A player we should keep!

 

[Edgelord]

I don't know about this thread. What was the OP hoping for, a 3rd round pick? Is it worth trading him for less?

We do have Cap issues, no secret. We also have a good third line which Engvall is part of.

This is the type of player most of HF isn't going to see any value in. I hope we don't have to move him but until we know how we are spending our goalie money and what that damage is Engvall and others could be Cap casualties. This is one guy though I don't think we will get close to the value he has for us.

No one would pay it but I don't think I'd part with him for less than a 2nd unless he absolutely had to be moved.

I was thinking he was going to go to Van at the deadline, 2022 1st+Lilj+Engvall for Miller@50%

 

[BlueBaron]

I was thinking he was going to go to Van at the deadline, 2022 1st+Lilj+Engvall for Miller@50%

I didn't think Miller made any sense. Notice we still have all those assets? Trading Timmy or Sandin is a non starter to me. Engvall's future was in doubt though, no question.

 

[Face Of Bear]

Tall, fast, can shoot, PK, shut down. A player worth keeping around.

 

[viceroy]

6' 5" guys (25 years old) who can skate and have decent hands are a dime dozen?

I mean why do people keep repeating that he's 6'5" when he doesn't use his physique at all? He might as well be 5'10" for all that he does on the ice. The Habs used to have a player roughly that size back in the day, Pierre Dagenais. He was 6'4" with a good frame but was soft like goose down. Sure he had good hands but despite his size he was a perimeter player. Used to drive me nuts.

Also Guillaume Latendresse was like that way too.

 

[BlueBaron]

I mean why do people keep repeating that he's 6'5" when he doesn't use his physique at all? He might as well be 5'10" for all that he does on the ice. The Habs used to have a player roughly that size back in the day, Pierre Dagenais. He was 6'4" with a good frame but was soft like goose down. Sure he had good hands but despite his size he was a perimeter player. Used to drive me nuts.

Also Guillaume Latendresse was like that way too.

Mass is a thing in contact sports even if you don't hit people. It includes things like reach, the ability to block, keep players away as well as inducing fatigue by leaning or hanging on people. It's also good for screening and seeing the ice.