Phoenix CXXIII: Who Wants to Pay Our Bills?

[Whileee]

Nope, it's not dead, but it looks like it's approaching Night of the Living Dead status, walking around in a pretty ghoulish state - you know, with the knarled face and skin, lumbering as if half-human - I mean, it's almost Bettman-like!.

And yes, any of those kinds of maneuvers is still possible, but none of them will work if they can't get half the senators to go along. The poll posted above is the kind of thing that will really get senators' attention. They typically will treat an issue with 80 or 90% opposition like a bad disease. They got elected because they got majority votes; few of them will throw that popularity away for a cause like this arena.

So, it's probably toast, but you're right, not dead (officially) yet. Axiom will use this time to keep lobbying, until someone realizes they can't ever get a majority - and then it'll be in IA's interest to stop paying the lobbying fees and give up. What you might not see, though, is an admission from IA that they're giving up. That would be bad optics for their fans and for the season-ticket holders they want to find. So this thing could die a quiet death, the ghoul of a bill just wandering off into the desert sunset on the last day of the legislative session, never to be heard from again.

The appearance that a possible deal is right around the corner will be maintained by IA until the end of the season. That was never in doubt. I wonder how LeBlanc will spin this, now.

 

[blues10]

The appearance that a possible deal is right around the corner will be maintained by IA until the end of the season. That was never in doubt. I wonder how LeBlanc will spin this, now.

If the bill dies I don't expect Tony to say much. If IA does start talking it will likely centre around another pile of dirt on the tribes land or sharing a pile of dirt with the Suns.

We must be approaching the gold lining that Leblanc has referred to in the past. Just weeks away from El Dorado.

I am actually surprised that the bill did not get voted on and pass today. I really thought the can would get kicked further down the road.

 

[Killion]

The appearance that a possible deal is right around the corner will be maintained by IA until the end of the season. That was never in doubt. I wonder how LeBlanc will spin this, now.

Yeah, though I guess theres some chance if the Senate wants to go all Kamikaze' about it could still theoretically be tabled.

If the bill dies I don't expect Tony to say much. If IA does start talking it will likely centre around another pile of dirt on the tribes land or sharing a pile of dirt with the Suns.

We must be approaching the gold lining that Leblanc has referred to in the past. Just weeks away from El Dorado.

I am actually surprised that the bill did not get voted on and pass today. I really thought the can would get kicked further down the road.

Yeah, thats what I'd expect, the narrative... and were very likely looking at at least another 14mnths of it barring a pretty heavy duty & dramatic move
by the NHL in the very near future. Almost seems impossible to imagine a Relo to QC this Spring at this stage in the season, with whats transpired....

 

[Llama19]

Will this press conference be cancelled, too?

Representative Anthony Kern (R-20) and West Valley community leaders

Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 9:30 a.m.

Regarding legislation in the Senate related to Arizona Coyotes' relocation plans

Source: http://www.azleg.gov/press/house/53LEG/1R/170224KERNMEDIAADVISORYWED.pdf

 

[blues10]

Will this press conference be cancelled, too?

Representative Anthony Kern (R-20) and West Valley community leaders

Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 9:30 a.m.

Regarding legislation in the Senate related to Arizona Coyotes' relocation plans

Source: http://www.azleg.gov/press/house/53LEG/1R/170224KERNMEDIAADVISORYWED.pdf

They may want to "pile on" just to ensure the bill doesn't gain any crash momentum and rise from the ashes.

May also lay down some ground work to inviting IA back to Glendale, home of the Coyotes.

 

[WildGopher]

They may want to "pile on" just to ensure the bill doesn't gain any crash momentum and rise from the ashes.

May also lay down some ground work to inviting IA back to Glendale, home of the Coyotes.

That's probably a good take on what will happen. 5 bills have been put on the Senate calendar for tomorrow, and Worsley's is not among them. It's not like his buddies in the Senate are getting the cold shoulder, though: Co-sponsors of his bill, Sen. Fann and Sen. Borrilli, both have bills up tomorrow. Sen. Lesko has two, and had two yesterday. Bills are being moved, just not his.

They could still add bills to tomorrow's schedule, though, or call his up another day. Did someone say here when the last day of the legislative session is? If he decides to wait and lobby until he thinks he's got 16 votes, which he might never get, this might be like a clock quietly ticking until the session's done, ending with a whimper, instead of a roar.

 

[MNNumbers]

That's probably a good take on what will happen. 5 bills have been put on the Senate calendar for tomorrow, and Worsley's is not among them. It's not like his buddies in the Senate are getting the cold shoulder, though: Co-sponsors of his bill, Sen. Fann and Sen. Borrilli, both have bills up tomorrow. Sen. Lesko has two, and had two yesterday. Bills are being moved, just not his.

They could still add bills to tomorrow's schedule, though, or call his up another day. Did someone say here when the last day of the legislative session is? If he decides to wait and lobby until he thinks he's got 16 votes, which he might never get, this might be like a clock quietly ticking until the session's done, ending with a whimper, instead of a roar.

I think no one will say anything, either. It will just sit there, tabled, and it will die a slow death. Remember LeBlanc saying that there would be nothing more said until end of season? Making no move on a bill with no chance allows that.

Then, end of season, there will be 2 choices. If there seems to be some chance that Mesa as a city or Phoenix as a city would work with them, then they will say, "We just didn't have enough time to get the bill passed." And, we will have to deal with this another year. If there is no chance or no move from Phoenix or Mesa, then the tribes are the only chance left.

If they don't want to work with the tribes, then it gets really serious, really fast.

The only way something happens quick is if the bill dies, and the city gov't of Phoenix and Mesa refuse to deal, or make it clear there are no subsidies to be had, and the NHL decides to end the charade, and that QC is ok as a landing spot. The odds of that happening are very very small, so we are likely in for another year.

Meanwhile, the team, operated on a shoestring, with trades to get rid of half-salaries continues its on-ice performance....

 

[Llama19]

That's probably a good take on what will happen. 5 bills have been put on the Senate calendar for tomorrow, and Worsley's is not among them. It's not like his buddies in the Senate are getting the cold shoulder, though: Co-sponsors of his bill, Sen. Fann and Sen. Borrilli, both have bills up tomorrow. Sen. Lesko has two, and had two yesterday. Bills are being moved, just not his.

They could still add bills to tomorrow's schedule, though, or call his up another day. Did someone say here when the last day of the legislative session is? If he decides to wait and lobby until he thinks he's got 16 votes, which he might never get, this might be like a clock quietly ticking until the session's done, ending with a whimper, instead of a roar.

I think no one will say anything, either. It will just sit there, tabled, and it will die a slow death. Remember LeBlanc saying that there would be nothing more said until end of season? Making no move on a bill with no chance allows that.

Then, end of season, there will be 2 choices. If there seems to be some chance that Mesa as a city or Phoenix as a city would work with them, then they will say, "We just didn't have enough time to get the bill passed." And, we will have to deal with this another year. If there is no chance or no move from Phoenix or Mesa, then the tribes are the only chance left.

If they don't want to work with the tribes, then it gets really serious, really fast.

The only way something happens quick is if the bill dies, and the city gov't of Phoenix and Mesa refuse to deal, or make it clear there are no subsidies to be had, and the NHL decides to end the charade, and that QC is ok as a landing spot. The odds of that happening are very very small, so we are likely in for another year.

Meanwhile, the team, operated on a shoestring, with trades to get rid of half-salaries continues its on-ice performance....

Friday 3/24
Last Day to Hear SBs in House Committees
Last Day to Hear HBs in Senate Committees

Friday 4/14
Last Day for Conference Committees (By House and Senate Rule)

Tuesday 4/18
100th Day of Session

Yes, LeBlanc's bill will die with a whimper...but the LeBluster will live on...

 

[Llama19]

Bickley: Rebuilding Coyotes running out of options

To quote:

"To some of us, the Valley would feel like a lesser place if the Coyotes left for the Pacific Northwest or returned to Canada. It would downgrade our reputation to a region of wannabes, a market that couldn’t handle and didn’t appreciate its big-league status. But this much is certain:

Arizona taxpayers won’t approve any form of public funding for a hockey team that has delivered one extended playoff run in over two decades. Sarver has no communal obligation to save the Coyotes at his own expense, sharing corporate revenues and compromising intimate sight lines that come with a larger playing surface required by NHL teams.

It’s one thing to give shelter to a neighbor in times of desperation. It’s another to give the co-tenant the largest bedroom and control of the thermostat. This is especially true in our market, where fans are notoriously fickle, swept away by indifference whenever a local team falls out of playoff contention.

“The fact that we continue to, uh … seem to go … I don’t know. It’s hard to understand why exactly. I mean, you understand people’s hands are tied. You just don’t get it,” he [Captain Shane Doan] said.

Translation: The Coyotes are approaching another political crossroad. They need a new venue to be financially competitive. Yet they are incapable of investing in the moment, in the most pressing game on their schedule: making people care enough to never let them leave."

Source: http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...uilding-coyotes-running-out-options/98553252/

 

[WildGopher]

I think no one will say anything, either. It will just sit there, tabled, and it will die a slow death. Remember LeBlanc saying that there would be nothing more said until end of season? Making no move on a bill with no chance allows that.

Then, end of season, there will be 2 choices. If there seems to be some chance that Mesa as a city or Phoenix as a city would work with them, then they will say, "We just didn't have enough time to get the bill passed." And, we will have to deal with this another year. If there is no chance or no move from Phoenix or Mesa, then the tribes are the only chance left.

If they don't want to work with the tribes, then it gets really serious, really fast.

The only way something happens quick is if the bill dies, and the city gov't of Phoenix and Mesa refuse to deal, or make it clear there are no subsidies to be had, and the NHL decides to end the charade, and that QC is ok as a landing spot. The odds of that happening are very very small, so we are likely in for another year.

Meanwhile, the team, operated on a shoestring, with trades to get rid of half-salaries continues its on-ice performance....

I think that's how it's looking, too. Reminder for our international readers: When an American says a bill is "tabled," that means it's set aside to not be considered or voted on. In Canada, "tabled" means it's put on the table for consideration.
So we might read the same word two different ways.

I can see a "Who's on First" routine, with LeBlanc saying to Worsley: "I think it's time to table the bill."

Worsley: "Are you actually saying you want me to table it?!"

LeBlanc: "Of course! Why do you think we're going through all of this work and lobbying?"

Worsely: "Well, OK, if you say so . . . I'll tell the Rules Committee I want to table it."

And we wonder why the bill got pulled today! That's the real inside story that you won't read in the Arizona papers!

 

[Killion]

Friday 3/24
Last Day to Hear SBs in House Committees
Last Day to Hear HBs in Senate Committees

So thats it. March 24th. Oddly, both Harry Houdini's & WWE's The Undertakers birthdates.... some obscure meaning to that I'm sure though just what exactly...

Bickley: Rebuilding Coyotes running out of options

To quote:

"To some of us, the Valley would feel like a lesser place if the Coyotes left for the Pacific Northwest or returned to Canada. It would downgrade our reputation to a region of wannabes, a market that couldn’t handle and didn’t appreciate its big-league status."...

Source: http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...uilding-coyotes-running-out-options/98553252/

Bickley... how is Metro Phoenix & the State any less "Big League" should the Coyotes leave when its got the NFL, MLB & the NBA?... NCAA... major PGA & LPGA tour stops... Nascar... Cactus League & so on.... is that not Big League enough or what?... I mean, Cry me a River.... They do not need a new arena. What they need is a massive public subsidy. When is this guy going to call a spade a spade and instead spares his only timid bit of criticism of the club on their lack of on-ice success & Star Player drawing power.

 

[Killion]

Time to discuss "things"

... along with....

... "were not jumping out of windows or anything"...

 

[WildGopher]

So thats it. March 24th. Oddly, both Harry Houdini's & WWE's The Undertakers birthdates.... some obscure meaning to that I'm sure though just what exactly...


Bickley... how is Metro Phoenix & the State any less "Big League" should the Coyotes leave when its got the NFL, MLB & the NBA?... NCAA... major PGA & LPGA tour stops... Nascar... Cactus League & so on.... is that not Big League enough or what?...

Unfortunately for good Coyotes' fans, I think "Houdini" represents all the miraculous ways this franchise has been saved year after year since the bankruptcy; and the "Undertaker" . . . well, that's what looks like is coming for the franchise in another year or so.

I've been saying, and I know you and some others think the same, that the NHL has reasons to give LeBlanc another year to find someone to donate them an arena. I still think that's the course this is on, then relocation in 2018. But flaming out this badly in the Senate might just color how Phoenix and the tribes look at how unpopular it might be for them to give away a lot of money to LeBlanc and Co. And all this dark talk of relocation in the media we're starting to see - and even from Shane Doan the other day when Hanzal was dealt - if all that dark talk locally convinces the NHL that next year will see essentially no new season ticket sales, and gallons of red ink, maybe they just decide to do what I think they really don't want to - pull the plug this spring. The dark tone of the comments and articles is starting to sound like "hopeless," a mood that's fatal to any business.

And yeah, over the past 40 years or so, Phoenix has seen a tremendous growth in population and status as a major league destination. And not just the huge amount of sports choices you mentioned (and the Cactus League is bigger there than most people realize), but the Heard Museum, organizations like Goldwater Institute now nationally prominent, lots of great tourism options, ASU and U of A with a growing reputation as serious major universities - that area should feel nothing but pride in their huge and fast quality growth. Sure, they still have challenges and things to fix, but what area doesn't? The loss of one franchise could be quickly replaced with, say, a successful MLS franchise, or maybe the Roadrunners move up to Glendale. The sports and cultural scene is strong in that area and will continue to be, regardless of whether the Coyotes stay or leave.

 

[Glacial]

Even if it is done for the Coyotes (I still never right off deceitful underhandedness when it comes to politicians. For all we know, this funding bill might end up as a rider on the education bill), the question is still where?

1. Quebec City- Question of conference alignment. Are they saving QC as a short/long-term landing spot for the weakest Atlantic team (looking like the Hurricanes with a possibility for the Panthers) or are they merely saving QC for the next Thrashers regardless of geography? What does the NHL budge on?

2. Seattle- Where are they going to play? Are they going to risk entering a market which may not agree to a new arena this eon? What kind of price might they get from a potential owner playing in such an uncertain set-up?

3. Portland- Pretty much needs Allen to buy the team. How much is he willing to pay for a highly-distressed asset about as useful as concrete shoes in a swimming pool? It would be nowhere near what the NHL wants for the price.

I can't picture anywhere else. Houston blocked, KC needs an owner and has no access to arena revenue streams. Can't think of anywhere else. Ain't going to be Vegas. That process is too far along to pull a bait & switch.

Coyotes going now would be a buyer's market. The only ownership I can picture paying a higher price on a fire saled team would be Quebecor, but is the NHL willing to toss a monkeywrench into their conference alignment or their endgame for the Coyotes (which was seemingly Seattle)? Do they write off plan A and go for plan B (deal with more imbalanced conferences, expand to Seattle) to solve the Coyotes conundrum?

 

[Whileee]

Here's a thought. They could roll up their sleeves and try to make the team successful with a state of the art building in Glendale, with no rent and very favourable lease conditions. After all, they have always been adamant that the only reason they needed a large arena management fee was to offset management costs. Now that AEG has assumed that financial burden, they can just focus on building up hockey revenues as they had promised to do.

 

[WildGopher]

Here's a thought. They could roll up their sleeves and try to make the team successful with a state of the art building in Glendale, with no rent and very favourable lease conditions. After all, they have always been adamant that the only reason they needed a large arena management fee was to offset management costs. Now that AEG has assumed that financial burden, they can just focus on building up hockey revenues as they had promised to do.

That'd be the sensible thing to do if they want to stay in that market, but LeBlanc sure has sounded like he's burned those bridges. Depends on just how much he wants to remain an NHL team president/part owner, I guess.

A thought if the Coyotes do leave. When ASU's hockey team hosts its future tournaments or handful of games at GRA, it should invite the former Coyotes season ticket holders to the games free of charge the first year. It would be a great way to market their product, give the best fans of the Yotes a gift, and earn some goodwill from those hockey fans. ASU has too small an arena currently to offer much there, but they'll one day have a bigger arena, and I'm sure they'd love to generate some local, non-student hockey fans to support their team when they have more capacity.

I think the Coyotes tried to do some creative marketing things like this over their years, but it just didn't work. With the far smaller cost structure ASU hockey has, maybe it can work for them, or even for an AHL team in Glendale, which could do the same freebie offer for former Yotes season ticket holders.

 

[madhi19]

Even if it is done for the Coyotes (I still never right off deceitful underhandedness when it comes to politicians. For all we know, this funding bill might end up as a rider on the education bill), the question is still where?

1. Quebec City- Question of conference alignment. Are they saving QC as a short/long-term landing spot for the weakest Atlantic team (looking like the Hurricanes with a possibility for the Panthers) or are they merely saving QC for the next Thrashers regardless of geography? What does the NHL budge on?

2. Seattle- Where are they going to play? Are they going to risk entering a market which may not agree to a new arena this eon? What kind of price might they get from a potential owner playing in such an uncertain set-up?

3. Portland- Pretty much needs Allen to buy the team. How much is he willing to pay for a highly-distressed asset about as useful as concrete shoes in a swimming pool? It would be nowhere near what the NHL wants for the price.

I can't picture anywhere else. Houston blocked, KC needs an owner and has no access to arena revenue streams. Can't think of anywhere else. Ain't going to be Vegas. That process is too far along to pull a bait & switch.

Coyotes going now would be a buyer's market. The only ownership I can picture paying a higher price on a fire saled team would be Quebecor, but is the NHL willing to toss a monkeywrench into their conference alignment or their endgame for the Coyotes (which was seemingly Seattle)? Do they write off plan A and go for plan B (deal with more imbalanced conferences, expand to Seattle) to solve the Coyotes conundrum?

On the conference issue. If it come to that the NHL will do what the NHL always does. Kick the can a few years down the road by putting the Nordiques in the central. A la Winnipeg. By the fire sale going on, it not like this team will be in the playoff any time soon anyway. If that happen the Canes will end up West eventually. One dumpster fire move East* one dumpster fire move West. The alignment is now fixed.
The thing that could wreck this plan is if Karmanos got Quebec already earmarked to fix his own mess. In that case all bets are off.

*Eventually.

 

[ponder719]

an AHL team in Glendale

Now that gives me a fanciful idea for a solution. I know this is ridiculous, but hear me out.

1) IncompetenceArizona sells the rights to their NHL franchise to Victor Coleman in 2018, presuming the success of the SoDo bid (feel free to substitute in Paul Allen and Portland if needed.) However, presume also that this does not include the rights to the franchise name/colors/etc.

2) IndescribableAirheads move the Tucson Roadrunners to Glendale, and rename the franchise the Arizona Coyotes.

3) The Seattle Metropolitans (or Portland Whatevers) sign an affiliation agreement with the AHL Coyotes.

End result: the Coyotes in Glendale as an AHL team, Seattle in the NHL, IA where they can afford to be, and a reasonable shot at stabilizing one of the worst financial messes in the league.

Now, this may end up a slap in the face, and if Coyotes fans hate it, my bad. Just an idle thought for how hockey fans in greater Phoenix can keep their team without having to go through this rigamarole year after year.

 

[Melrose Munch]

So thats it. March 24th. Oddly, both Harry Houdini's & WWE's The Undertakers birthdates.... some obscure meaning to that I'm sure though just what exactly...


Bickley... how is Metro Phoenix & the State any less "Big League" should the Coyotes leave when its got the NFL, MLB & the NBA?... NCAA... major PGA & LPGA tour stops... Nascar... Cactus League & so on.... is that not Big League enough or what?... I mean, Cry me a River.... They do not need a new arena. What they need is a massive public subsidy. When is this guy going to call a spade a spade and instead spares his only timid bit of criticism of the club on their lack of on-ice success & Star Player drawing power.

Having 4 teams is a big dead, signifies your importance as a city in America. Only about 13 cities have this status, and Seattle is trying to get it.

 

[Mightygoose]

Having 4 teams is a big dead, signifies your importance as a city in America. Only about 13 cities have this status, and Seattle is trying to get it.

But Phoenix can still be a 4 team city even if the Coyotes leave.

There is an MLS expansion bid for Phoenix and if the Yotes leave, the market becomes allot more attractive.

I wouldn't underestimate the growth potential here. It's a much younger demographic which other leagues crave, plus with MLS being a younger league, you won't have transplants with as strong loyalties to their old market.

There are some markets I believe MLS will outpace the NHL. Phoenix is one of them.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

But Phoenix can still be a 4 team city even if the Coyotes leave.

There is an MLS expansion bid for Phoenix and if the Yotes leave, the market becomes allot more attractive.

I wouldn't underestimate the growth potential here. It's a much younger demographic which other leagues crave, plus with MLS being a younger league, you won't have transplants with as strong loyalties to their old market.

There are some markets I believe MLS will outpace the NHL. Phoenix is one of them.

uh, MLS isn't that gung-ho on Arizona, who owns or is preparing that proposal, MG, AND any other franchise in another sport doesn't have any impact on the existing franchise...

 

[Mightygoose]

uh, MLS isn't that gung-ho on Arizona, who owns or is preparing that proposal, MG, AND any other franchise in another sport doesn't have any impact on the existing franchise...

MLS thinks otherwise.

http://www.foxsports.com/soccer/story/mls-expansion-phoenix-cities-list-012617

Add Phoenix to the list of cities that could land an MLS expansion team. The city has been invited by MLS to enter the bidding for an expansion team, joining 10 other cities that were already in the mix.

Only so many corporate and discretional dollars to go around, hence their interest in San Diego is greater after the Chargers left.

 

[powerstuck]

"To some of us, the Valley would feel like a lesser place if the Coyotes left for the Pacific Northwest or returned to Canada. It would downgrade our reputation to a region of wannabes, a market that couldn’t handle and didn’t appreciate its big-league status.

The Valley already has a presence of NFL, the biggest of the big leagues.
They have the presence of MLB, the second biggest of the big leagues.
They also have the presence of NBA, the last of the big leagues.
They currently have a presence of NHL, a wanna-be big league.

I don't think there would be many people downgrading the Valley reputation based on NHL presence.

 

[Bruins1233]

So thats it. March 24th. Oddly, both Harry Houdini's & WWE's The Undertakers birthdates.... some obscure meaning to that I'm sure though just what exactly...


Bickley... how is Metro Phoenix & the State any less "Big League" should the Coyotes leave when its got the NFL, MLB & the NBA?... NCAA... major PGA & LPGA tour stops... Nascar... Cactus League & so on.... is that not Big League enough or what?... I mean, Cry me a River.... They do not need a new arena. What they need is a massive public subsidy. When is this guy going to call a spade a spade and instead spares his only timid bit of criticism of the club on their lack of on-ice success & Star Player drawing power.

It doesn't, it sounds like the same BS the Globe was printing two summers ago about the Olympics, how Boston would never be world class unless the state built a $300M velodrome and a $1B dollar Olympic Stadium, and massive Beach Volleyball and Tennis Stadiums. Because that would bring more prestige to the region than the worlds Best Hospital and the worlds 2 best Universities.
Pro sports are nice, but you can always find something else to do.

 

[Killion]

It doesn't, it sounds like the same BS the Globe was printing two summers ago about the Olympics, how Boston would never be world class unless the state built a $300M velodrome and a $1B dollar Olympic Stadium, and massive Beach Volleyball and Tennis Stadiums. Because that would bring more prestige to the region than the worlds Best Hospital and the worlds 2 best Universities.
Pro sports are nice, but you can always find something else to do.

Yeah, and I applauded Boston at the time for rejecting those delusions, the Olympics, total boondoggles be it Summer or Winter Games.... www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-37...ographs-reveal-derelict-sites-past-games.html

And the thing with this situation in Arizona, ok, new arena, but youve still got the same owners and as Derek Sanderson once said in discussing his battles with booze & drugs, there is no such thing as a geographic
cure try as one might. Wherever you go, you are there. You cant runaway from yourself. Really the only thing I think that can save this franchise at all is new ownership and that just doesnt seem to be in the cards.