Phoenix CXXIII: Who Wants to Pay Our Bills?

[MNNumbers]

I agree completely with Montreal and Killion and others that the presence of the Tucson RoadRunners in the IA portfolio in no way limits the future of the NHL franchise.

So, please don't attack this post for that.

However, I think it is correct to say that:

There are 2 parts to the local situation that have bearing on a potential relocation. One is the NHL itself, the other is IA.

We can be absolutely sure that the NHL doesn't care one bit about where AHL affiliates are located. NHL always will leave that to the franchisee to figure out.

IA, however, is a different story. I believe that the presence of the Tucson team in the portfolio indicates that IA themselves do NOT want to move the team. To my way of thinking, this is borne out by all the evidence we have in front of us, to wit:

1- The purchase was heavily leveraged, leaving, we suppose, the NHL with lots of influence in what happens to the franchise.

2- The IA organization does not seem to be particularly well-heeled as sports owners go. Thus, putting 1 and 2 together it seems that this venture, as far as NHL goes, will exist only in Arizona.

3- If IA had any inking about moving out of market themselves, they have had many opportunities to do so, especially since COG voted to cancel their lease with the subsidy, coupled with the way things have gone in the last few months.

4- Road Runners in Tucson only adds to this narrative. It is not a tipping piece, it's only a small addendum.

In short, IA is desperate to stay in the market. If the team has to move, they won't be going with it. The AHL affiliate in Tucson is a small symptom of that.

And, we all knew that anyway.

 

[Final Baton]

Since the current story is the presser of a senator trying to halt a bill, why not go with this title for next thread :

Phoenix CXXIV: Kill Bill

 

[Killion]

LeBlanc's current quest has always been about owning a professional team, but absolutely making sure the arena the team plays in is built on the dime of someone else.

This goes back to his plans to land a professional team in Thunder Bay.

https://www.tbnewswatch.com/local-sports/need-a-home-385600

"It is the most important aspect of any future plans we may have, be it the ECHL or any other league that we’ve investigated, it is an absolute requirement that a new facility is in place," said LeBlanc. LeBlanc said he plans to be involved in the arena discussion to help expedite the process, but reiterated Ice Edge likely won’t be a primary investor in a new facility in Thunder Bay. Instead, if a new centre is built, LeBlanc said they are more than willing to provide an anchor tenant in the form of an ECHL franchise.

Nothing really has changed with LeBlanc's quest, just the city he's trying to get an arena built in. But it is an interesting stance for someone whom once said the following when he had his hat in the political ring:

https://www.tbnewswatch.com/local-news/profile-leblanc-wants-business-style-accountability-388762

LeBlanc said his party wants to eliminate waste and end foolish spending. "Just doling money out left and right that’s not a way to stimulate an economy. There has to be a thoughtful approach to ensure the economy grows."

... yep. reminds me of these "Little Book of Quotes" I once picked up in the 80's at a sports collectibles shop. "Vest pocket-book sized". Tiny. About 60 pages.... anyhoo... bought the Harold Ballard Quotes and Don Cherry Quotes copies.... though old school, could see an Anthony LeBlanc issue doing quite well. Guys an absolute "quote machine" of complete, total & utter hypocrisy, ambiguity. Easily enough material to fill a couple of volumes.

 

[Montrealer]

I agree completely with Montreal and Killion and others that the presence of the Tucson RoadRunners in the IA portfolio in no way limits the future of the NHL franchise.

So, please don't attack this post for that.

However, I think it is correct to say that:

There are 2 parts to the local situation that have bearing on a potential relocation. One is the NHL itself, the other is IA.

We can be absolutely sure that the NHL doesn't care one bit about where AHL affiliates are located. NHL always will leave that to the franchisee to figure out.

IA, however, is a different story. I believe that the presence of the Tucson team in the portfolio indicates that IA themselves do NOT want to move the team. To my way of thinking, this is borne out by all the evidence we have in front of us, to wit:

1- The purchase was heavily leveraged, leaving, we suppose, the NHL with lots of influence in what happens to the franchise.

2- The IA organization does not seem to be particularly well-heeled as sports owners go. Thus, putting 1 and 2 together it seems that this venture, as far as NHL goes, will exist only in Arizona.

3- If IA had any inking about moving out of market themselves, they have had many opportunities to do so, especially since COG voted to cancel their lease with the subsidy, coupled with the way things have gone in the last few months.

4- Road Runners in Tucson only adds to this narrative. It is not a tipping piece, it's only a small addendum.

In short, IA is desperate to stay in the market. If the team has to move, they won't be going with it. The AHL affiliate in Tucson is a small symptom of that.

And, we all knew that anyway.

Absolutely right. It's pretty obvious IA wants to stay in Arizona, it's just not clear they are competent enough to make it work.

Edit: I'm aware I'm being really charitable in my estimation of IA's competence.

 

[WildGopher]

Does Arizona have a local version of C-SPAN?

Sorry, guys. Pack away the popcorn and no need to hunt for Arizona Capitol TV online today. The Senate Calendar today shows Worsley's bill has been removed. There were 6 or so bills on the calendar, including his, when I posted last night. As of now, there are just 5.

Let the conjecture fly - It could be the Rules Committee thinks some of these other bills are going to take a long time to debate today. It could be that Worsley asked to delay the bill's consideration so he could get a few more days to lobby for support for the last needed votes. Perhaps Rep. Kern knew something about support for the bill slipping, so didn't feel a need to hold his press conference Monday. Hard to know.

There was a big article at azcentral.com today about the need (at least in the eyes of the writer) for big education funding, and maybe that issue is having an impact on how much else the senators feel they have available to spend, as Llama suggested might happen.

Although we can't know for sure what's happening, I will say this: It's rarely a good sign for a bill when it gets pulled or delayed. When Worsley had to pull his initial bill from the Commerce Committee, and when Lesko had to pull her Community Engagement District bill from Finance, you knew it meant they probably didn't have the votes they needed, at least in those committees. Whatever's going on with Worsley's bill now, this isn't going to be seen as helpful. It'll be interesting to see if Rep. Kern goes ahead and holds his press conference tomorrow.

 

[GuelphStormer]

Absolutely right. It's pretty obvious IA wants to stay in Arizona, it's just not clear they are competent enough to make it work.

Edit: I'm aware I'm being really charitable in my estimation of IA's competence.

you are being kind. if they could not make it work during the first two, subsidized years of their lease at GRA, they cannot make it work. they thumbed their nose at agreement requirements, failed to submit a slew of documents and even had the nerve to ask for more handouts all the while rejoicing in twitter accounts and a seat at the big boy table while they dismally mismanaged promotion and product.

nope, that ship has sailed. these clowns have no business operating this - or any - franchise ... and no doubt, bettman knows it.

 

[Killion]

...nope, that ship has sailed. these clowns have no business operating this - or any - franchise ... and no doubt, bettman knows it.

... oh yeah, totally agree and absolutely no sympathy for Bettman & Daly who clearly stitched this Frankenstein of an "ownership group"
together thinking it would hold together for 5yrs without anyone being any the wiser. Didnt take long for them to reap what they'd sown.




Also Note; if anyones wondering why no avatars & a lot of error 520's etc, experiencing server problems... hopefully rectified sometime today.

 

[mesamonster]

you are being kind. if they could not make it work during the first two, subsidized years of their lease at GRA, they cannot make it work. they thumbed their nose at agreement requirements, failed to submit a slew of documents and even had the nerve to ask for more handouts all the while rejoicing in twitter accounts and a seat at the big boy table while they dismally mismanaged promotion and product.

nope, that ship has sailed. these clowns have no business operating this - or any - franchise ... and no doubt, bettman knows it.

In the political world the clowns would be considered "elitist establishment" who feel the rules do not apply to them and that they are entitled to their demands. End of discussion, this attitude is not washing well with most folks including state legislators who are taking a hint from Washington. Tony might be better off taking his show to Thunder Bay and lobbying local politicians about a minor league team.

 

[Llama19]

Sorry, guys. Pack away the popcorn and no need to hunt for Arizona Capitol TV online today. The Senate Calendar today shows Worsley's bill has been removed. There were 6 or so bills on the calendar, including his, when I posted last night. As of now, there are just 5.

Let the conjecture fly - It could be the Rules Committee thinks some of these other bills are going to take a long time to debate today. It could be that Worsley asked to delay the bill's consideration so he could get a few more days to lobby for support for the last needed votes. Perhaps Rep. Kern knew something about support for the bill slipping, so didn't feel a need to hold his press conference Monday. Hard to know.

There was a big article at azcentral.com today about the need (at least in the eyes of the writer) for big education funding, and maybe that issue is having an impact on how much else the senators feel they have available to spend, as Llama suggested might happen.

Although we can't know for sure what's happening, I will say this: It's rarely a good sign for a bill when it gets pulled or delayed. When Worsley had to pull his initial bill from the Commerce Committee, and when Lesko had to pull her Community Engagement District bill from Finance, you knew it meant they probably didn't have the votes they needed, at least in those committees. Whatever's going on with Worsley's bill now, this isn't going to be seen as helpful. It'll be interesting to see if Rep. Kern goes ahead and holds his press conference tomorrow.

It's Dead Jim...

Look for 'official' articles to come out later...

 

[PCSPounder]

In short, IA is desperate to stay in the market. If the team has to move, they won't be going with it.

LeBlanc really wants this "ownership position." There is simply NOWHERE else they can go and keep control. The Plan B is sell and they probably know they can't get full value for it, whether from Paul Allen or on the $CAN.

(Nobody has talked me down from the theory that Quebec would have had a franchise by now except for, well, Quebecor. I don't think the expansion effort failed because of the league setting too high a bar. So I'm not completely convinced they CAN buy the Coyotes.)

I still wonder if there's a place for this franchise to go unless Seattle solves their arena. Or I could feed Portland trolls (these are trolls not located on BoH) who have long surmised that Allen would move the Blazers to Seattle... the way to do that is to bring the Coyotes to Portland, since Allen does happen to own Moda Center. This trolling would have no legs whatsoever except the Blazers have clearly gone into another round of cost-cutting with one recent trade, a subsequent lack of trade, and a less-than-stellar position even though they're entering the next draft with 3 first round picks.

 

[blues10]

It's Dead Jim...

Look for 'official' articles to come out later...

Time to discuss "things"

 

[cbcwpg]

It's Dead Jim...

Look for 'official' articles to come out later...

But, nothing is over until it's officially over, when it comes to all things Coyote.

 

[Mightygoose]

But, nothing is over until it's officially over, when it comes to all things Coyote.

I agree, still think there's a pulse somewhere

For those familiar, is the bill is pulled and dead in terms of the arena, is there still a chance that the language can be struck in yet another existing bill and try that route?

I just feel I can't concede defeat on their behalf until the session adjourns

 

[Llama19]

Arizona voters to Coyotes: Stick it out in Glendale

To quote:

"Overall, 65 percent of respondents statewide said the team should remain in Glendale.

The new survey comes as a bill that would create a special taxing district for sports teams lies near death at the Capitol. The legislation would provide $225 million in public dollars for a projected $395 million arena project in the East Valley."

Source: http://www.12news.com/news/arizona-voters-to-coyotes-stick-it-out-in-glendale/416193184

 

[Killion]

In the political world the clowns would be considered "elitist establishment" who feel the rules do not apply to them and that they are entitled to their demands. End of discussion, this attitude is not washing well with most folks including state legislators who are taking a hint from Washington. Tony might be better off taking his show to Thunder Bay and lobbying local politicians about a minor league team.

They already tried that & basically got run out of town on a rail.

It's Dead Jim...

Look for 'official' articles to come out later...

Arizona voters to Coyotes: Stick it out in Glendale

To quote:

"Overall, 65 percent of respondents statewide said the team should remain in Glendale.

The new survey comes as a bill that would create a special taxing district for sports teams lies near death at the Capitol. The legislation would provide $225 million in public dollars for a projected $395 million arena project in the East Valley."

Source: http://www.12news.com/news/arizona-voters-to-coyotes-stick-it-out-in-glendale/416193184

Finally, some sanity. Almost all weve heard has been Worsleys & IA's narrative for the past couple of weeks.

 

[cbcwpg]

Finally, some sanity. Almost all weve heard has been Worsleys & IA's narrative for the past couple of weeks.

And when does what the majority of people want ever get them what they want? As long as the politicians have agendas, it doesn't matter what the polls say or what the majority of the taxpayers want.

Not saying anything is dead as far as the bill goes, until it's announced dead.

As far as the article, the people are right... the team should stay in Glendale. If location was such a problem then the IA boys never would have bought the team ( yeah I know they probably aren't real owners but lets pretend to keep it simple ) in the first place, and they sure as hell never would have come out with statements about being profitable in year 3 of their earlier lease. Any talk about location being bad is all BS. Everyone knows it ONLY became a bad location after the CoG got out of the $15 million/yr lease.

So if the team is going to stay in Glendale then all people...all levels of gov't , the city, the NHL, and IA... need to sit in a room and work it out. Short of blowing $400 million on a new arena they don't need, there has to be something that can be worked out so the team can maybe be borderline viable and the CoG doesn't lose it's shirt.

And if the effort is put in and no solution to make it work in Glendale can be found, then maybe, just maybe, the reality is that the NHL just doesn't work in that part of the world given the costs of running an NHL team at this time.

 

[Glacial]

It's Dead Jim...

Look for 'official' articles to come out later...

There's always giving the Coyotes arena the "Spock's Brain" treatment.

Also Note; if anyones wondering why no avatars & a lot of error 520's etc, experiencing server problems... hopefully rectified sometime today.

I noticed that. The server must've come down with a case of the mumps.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

There's always giving the Coyotes arena the "Spock's Brain" treatment.

As bad of actors as IceArizona is, there's no reason to insult them that heavily by comparing them to "Spock's Brain."

Good lord. Even The Room and Plan 9 From Outer Space are better than "Spock's Brain."

I noticed that. The server must've come down with a case of the mumps.

Amazon Web Services is having a bad day on teh Intarwebs and it's affecting a boatload of websites that use it for image hosting.

 

[MNNumbers]

It's Dead Jim...

Look for 'official' articles to come out later...

How soon do we expect 'official' articles?

 

[mesamonster]

Perhaps it is too early to begin a discussion about what a 17-18 season in GRA will look like but why not begin some speculation with regard to how bad it could be! Without any hope of a new arena does the "scary losses" number become gruesome? Rather than playing a season that is meaningless for this franchise, GB needs to show plan "B" sooner than later. Could they play an interim season in KC, Houston, Milwaukee or where ever? Wouldn`t that be better than witnessing the true carnage of GRA in a lame Duck?

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Could they play an interim season in KC, Houston, Milwaukee or where ever? Wouldn`t that be better than witnessing the true carnage of GRA in a lame Duck?

No. Do you think anyone in those markets would buy tickets for a team that's basically barnstorming? "Hey, fans, buy these hockey tickets for a team that's just stopping here on its way to another market!" Yeah, that's not realistic.

 

[Mightygoose]

No. Do you think anyone in those markets would buy tickets for a team that's basically barnstorming? "Hey, fans, buy these hockey tickets for a team that's just stopping here on its way to another market!" Yeah, that's not realistic.

Agreed, the 1997 Tennessee Oilers (in Memphis) say hello!

If this fails and there is no out clause they'll have to stick around GRA and continue mantra of getting a new arena somewhere and they'll be super progressed again...I'm sure they don't want to be like '96 Houston Oilers either.

 

[WildGopher]

For those familiar, is the bill is pulled and dead in terms of the arena, is there still a chance that the language can be struck in yet another existing bill and try that route?

Nope, it's not dead, but it looks like it's approaching Night of the Living Dead status, walking around in a pretty ghoulish state - you know, with the knarled face and skin, lumbering as if half-human - I mean, it's almost Bettman-like!.

And yes, any of those kinds of maneuvers is still possible, but none of them will work if they can't get half the senators to go along. The poll posted above is the kind of thing that will really get senators' attention. They typically will treat an issue with 80 or 90% opposition like a bad disease. They got elected because they got majority votes; few of them will throw that popularity away for a cause like this arena.

So, it's probably toast, but you're right, not dead (officially) yet. Axiom will use this time to keep lobbying, until someone realizes they can't ever get a majority - and then it'll be in IA's interest to stop paying the lobbying fees and give up. What you might not see, though, is an admission from IA that they're giving up. That would be bad optics for their fans and for the season-ticket holders they want to find. So this thing could die a quiet death, the ghoul of a bill just wandering off into the desert sunset on the last day of the legislative session, never to be heard from again.

 

[Llama19]

Arizona voters to Coyotes: Stick it out in Glendale

To quote:

"Overall, 65 percent of respondents statewide said the team should remain in Glendale.

The new survey comes as a bill that would create a special taxing district for sports teams lies near death at the Capitol. The legislation would provide $225 million in public dollars for a projected $395 million arena project in the East Valley."

Source: http://www.12news.com/news/arizona-voters-to-coyotes-stick-it-out-in-glendale/416193184

Details of questions asked in tweet...

 

[Whileee]

^^

The public is just ignorant. They need to see one of TL Hocking's spreadsheets that will prove to them that the Coyotes will bring prosperity to all.