Proposal: Philly and Toronto

[Halla]

looks like a resounding no from both sides minus the jets guy who thinks the leafs would say yes. time to lock this one up, its going nowhere

 

[Halla]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1940646&highlight=couturier

Is Couts a #2 C on a playoff team? Even split....yet Philly made the playoffs with him as their #2 C. So the answer is yes.

but more people say he isnt right?
your earlier comments imply it is ridiculous to not consider him a #2.
184 people voted he isnt with 180 saying he is.

any kadri poll as a #2C?

 

[13pacheco31]

So Brown will be a 65-70 point winger? Because that's what it will take....even then, maybe not.

And it's not homerism. Flyers fans would take Couts NOW over Simmonds and Schenn who are/can be 60 point guys. If Couts takes the next step, like he showed this past year, his value goes up even more.

you may think that isn't homerism, but trust me... It is. Like homerism at it's finest lol

 

[Canada4Gold]

I havent seen a non flyers fan yet proclaim couturier to be a #2.

I'm a Leafs fan and Couturier is a #2C, you're welcome

Kadri is 2 years older, in 2 years I think Couturier will be a better player than Kadri is today. That being said like I said before adding Brown makes it a no.

 

[Tripod]

but more people say he isnt right?
your earlier comments imply it is ridiculous to not consider him a #2.
184 people voted he isnt with 180 saying he is.

any kadri poll as a #2C?

Again...it wasn't if he was a #2...it was is he a #2 on a playoff team. And the poll was started a year ago when his linemates were Read and Umberger

As for a Kadri poll...not sure. But I think he is a #2 C as well.

you may think that isn't homerism, but trust me... It is. Like homerism at it's finest lol

How is it homerism? I would take Couts over Simmonds or Schenn...where does Kadri fit with those guys?

 

[Magua]

im not very good with this stuff but surely his first 4 1/2 seasons count for more than a decent 20 games?

last 3 seasons 39-37-39. surely there is a pattern there

I don't think from November until the end of the season is 20 games. He was on pace for 60+ since then. Hell, include the whole damn season if you'd like and it's still a 50+ point pace. As for a pattern, yes, that he had terrible line-mates for those years amid some of the toughest minutes in the NHL and spent inconsistent time on a putrid PP2. And was still quite productive at ES. Only the first part changed this season, and he broke out. You can't score 50+ points tied to the NHL's toughest minutes and Umberger and Downie and Rinaldo and Read and Talbot. Points aren't scored in a vacuum, and you're given what you get. He was poorly developed and pigeonholed and rushed to the NHL at 18, so that season "count" is incredibly misleading. He just turned 23 last season. If you want to use 4th line teenage seasons to prove your point, while most of his draft class was feasting in juniors, then bully for you.

Take the same aged Scheifele. Went back to junior 2 more years. Until this year, he scored at similar rates (slightly better, but he is better offensively) to Couturier at ES despite easier minutes. But he also got twice the PP time to inflate the overall difference a bit. Now this year he truly breaks out and is a certified stud, though he still sees easier -- not easy -- minutes and is on the top PP. But in his 22-23 season, he's allowed to make leaps but Couturier isn't, I guess. Finished product at 18, don't cha know. I mean, christ, Gostisbehere is the same age as Couturier and he just was nominated for a Calder.

 

[Halla]

I'm a Leafs fan and Couturier is a #2C, you're welcome

Kadri is 2 years older, in 2 years I think Couturier will be a better player than Kadri is today. That being said like I said before adding Brown makes it a no.

meh. Kadris worst full season (73games) he had 39pts. That matches Couturier career high. Kadri is gonna be in the 55-60pt range this year with a guy like marner on his wing and grabner/boyes not

 

[Menzinger]

I don't see the point of the trade from the Leafs... At best it's a mild upgrade at worst a downgrade

If the Leafs were to trade Kadri, it wouldn't be for another centre

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

kadri has only had top 6 linemates once in his career ( the year he hit 50 points)
if you look at his other linemates you would cringe they were that bad
(talking long term, not stretches here)

 

[Halla]

pretty much the only argument that couts is better is based on his pace last year?

career 82 gm pace:
Kadri- 20.37g/29.17a/49.54pts
Couturier - 13.12g/23.66a/36.78pts

so you want kadri and brown as well? hell no

 

[Halla]

I don't think from November until the end of the season is 20 games. He was on pace for 60+ since then. Hell, include the whole damn season if you'd like and it's still a 50+ point pace. As for a pattern, yes, that he had terrible line-mates for those years amid some of the toughest minutes in the NHL and spent inconsistent time on a putrid PP2. And was still quite productive at ES. Only the first part changed this season, and he broke out. You can't score 50+ points tied to the NHL's toughest minutes and Umberger and Downie and Rinaldo and Read and Talbot. Points aren't scored in a vacuum, and you're given what you get. He was poorly developed and pigeonholed and rushed to the NHL at 18, so that season "count" is incredibly misleading. He just turned 23 last season. If you want to use 4th line teenage seasons to prove your point, while most of his draft class was feasting in juniors, then bully for you.

Take the same aged Scheifele. Went back to junior 2 more years. Until this year, he scored at similar rates (slightly better, but he is better offensively) to Couturier at ES despite easier minutes. But he also got twice the PP time to inflate the overall difference a bit. Now this year he truly breaks out and is a certified stud, though he still sees easier -- not easy -- minutes and is on the top PP. But in his 22-23 season, he's allowed to make leaps but Couturier isn't, I guess. Finished product at 18, don't cha know. I mean, christ, Gostisbehere is the same age as Couturier and he just was nominated for a Calder.

you could say the EXACT same thing about kadri. 64pt pace the last 2/3 of the year, terrible linemates, lines shuffled constantly, new coach, demands to be defensively responsible, 2nd unit pp time with bozak on pp1

 

[Halla]

kadri has only had top 6 linemates once in his career ( the year he hit 50 points)
if you look at his other linemates you would cringe they were that bad
(talking long term, not stretches here)

leo komarov has been his most talented linemate that has stuck. a guy that has never hit 20g or 40pts...says it all there. Komarov-Kadri-Marner should make for a nice line 2

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

This is an auto-yes by the Leafs every time

Connor Brown could end up being the best player in the deal, and no way is Brown the difference (if there is any) between Kadri and Cout.

 

[Magua]

pretty much the only argument that couts is better is based on his pace last year?

career 82 gm pace:
Kadri- 20.37g/29.17a/49.54pts
Couturier - 13.12g/23.66a/36.78pts

so you want kadri and brown as well? hell no

Can you grasp the absurdness of comparing a player's age 22-25 seasons (when Kadri became a full time player) to someone's 18-23 seasons? Or does that just go over your head?

Kadri is a terrific and underrated player, but he had 19 points in 51 NHL games by the time he was turning 22. He didn't become a full time regular until the same age Couturier was just last season

 

[Stizzle]

I think Sean Couturier is the best player on our team. Dead serious.

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

leo komarov has been his most talented linemate that has stuck. a guy that has never hit 20g or 40pts...says it all there. Komarov-Kadri-Marner should make for a nice line 2

yeah even then hes a tweener, kadri has had some godawful linemates.

 

[Tripod]

Credit to Appleyard for this info in April:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1940646&highlight=couturier&page=8

This year Couts has been simply awesome... probably the easiest way to illustrate that is look at him vs Bergeron at 5v5 over each players respective season:

Oz Starts & Corsi QoC:

Couturier: 44.6% & 50.8%
Bergeron: 44.9% & 50.3%

TOI:

Couturier: 13:31
Bergeron: 13:29

Corsi% & Corsi rel%:

Couturier: 54.3% & +4.2%
Bergeron: 55.8% & +8.4%

High Danger chance% & rel%:

Couturier: 59.1% & +10.5%
Bergeron: 55.6% & +8.8%

GF% & GF Rel%

Couturier: 57.6% & +9.5%
Bergeron: 56% & +6.7%

P/60:

Couturier: 2.04
Bergeron: 1.84


I mean, he has better 'luck' than Bergeron... and is not as good as him ofc... but being so relatively close to him statistically in almost identical minutes is very impressive.

 

[GoJetsGo55]

Connor Brown could end up being the best player in the deal, and no way is Brown the difference (if there is any) between Kadri and Cout.

Couts >>>> Kadri. It's not even close. They put up similar numbers and Couts is a thousand time the defensive player that Kadri is.

No chance in hell I do this deal if I am Philly. Literally, not even close.

 

[TheKingPin]

Is he good defensively ? Yes no one can argue that. But if he wants to be regarded a top 6 player his offence needs to improve greatly. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks he's very overrated

You really don't know know what you are speaking about here. He basically lived in the D zone for years. Last year he got more o time and was a very very good second line center for it. This year he should be even better. I forget his exact current age, but he is very young. His is also better than good defensively. Just look at his numbers vs some of the elite Fwds out there. Better than a lot of selke trophy winners. Couts will be huge when we are contenders in a few years.

 

[Hally BlackWood]

Couts >>>> Kadri. It's not even close. They put up similar numbers and Couts is a thousand time the defensive player that Kadri is.

No chance in hell I do this deal if I am Philly. Literally, not even close.

That your opinion. I would say Kadri >>>> couts. Who plays top 6 mins and doesn't produce enough to play top 6 mins. We will see this year when Kadri gets top 6 mins and real line mates.

 

[TheKingPin]

I think Sean Couturier is the best player on our team. Dead serious.

If not the best, certainly the most important. A guy like couts is very important to being a real contender.

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

well there it is couts is better then bergeron, and better then most selke winners, cant give that up now can you.

 

[LoovTrain]

Simply put, Hell no to the OP.

No way the Leafs add... Much less add Connor Brown.

Debate all you want. But I take Naz 100% of the time.

 

[Magua]

well there it is couts is better then bergeron, and better then most selke winners, cant give that up now can you.

.......................

I mean, he has better 'luck' than Bergeron... and is not as good as him ofc... but being so relatively close to him statistically in almost identical minutes is very impressive.

Can this thread be closed already? It's low tide and it smells.

 

[Larry44]

looks like a resounding no from both sides minus the jets guy who thinks the leafs would say yes. time to lock this one up, its going nowhere

Agreed. The Flyers just locked up Couturier for 6 years. He's going nowhere. Stupid suggestion.