Proposal: Philly and Toronto

[Snotbubbles]

a powerplay that had giroux,voracek,simmonds,schenn,ghost etc right?

check who kadri played with on unit 2

Couturier played on the Flyers 2nd unit as well, nice try though.

Just checked PP linemates, here are the most common for each player.

Kadri: Komarov, Holland, Gardiner, Lupul, Rielly

Couturier: Read, Gagner, Medvedev, Del Zotto, White

 

[Snotbubbles]

So Couts only plays the PK? Bottom line is Couts is better defensively, Kadri is better offensively. Can both improve in those areas? Of course...would i add Brown to Kadri? No.

I think what the statistics are showing is the Couturier is the better offensive player. He just has been put in such a defensive role to date that his overall generic totals (goals and assists) don't reflect just how good he is/can be. Based on his advanced numbers and used in a more offensive role his overall numbers would be as good, if not better than Kadri. Defensively, there is no comparison.

 

[GirouxDaMan]

I don't want Kadri anywhere near this team. No thanks from Philly.

 

[AINEC*]

PHI:
Couturier

TOR:
Kadri
Marner

Philly probably still hangs up. Couturier is elite. Points don't matter.

 

[Tripod]

a powerplay that had giroux,voracek,simmonds,schenn,ghost etc right?

check who kadri played with on unit 2

lol...when you see a person post something like this, it's obvious they know nothing about Philly.

As others have said...Couts played on the 2nd PP unit...with Read, White, Gagner, Streit, etc...

 

[LeafingTheWay]

I think what the statistics are showing is the Couturier is the better offensive player. He just has been put in such a defensive role to date that his overall generic totals (goals and assists) don't reflect just how good he is/can be. Based on his advanced numbers and used in a more offensive role his overall numbers would be as good, if not better than Kadri. Defensively, there is no comparison.

What advanced stats show his offensive numbers would be better ?

 

[Sweet Lou]

Clearly leafs fans basing value on points. Couturier is on the ice with the other teams top line more often than not. If you watched games you would see his value. Kadri is a good player, but not worth Couturier.

 

[Snotbubbles]

What advanced stats show his offensive numbers would be better ?

Go through the thread, there are plenty. Appleyard post showed how similar Couturier's advanced numbers were to Bergeron. Or you can look at Zone starts and then factor in P/Min ES. HTH.

 

[Starat327]

What advanced stats show his offensive numbers would be better ?

I'll make it easy for you - courtesy of 1865.


ES/PP TOI & Points Last Year:
Couturier - 39 points in 1,055 mins (2.21 pp60)
Kadri - 45 points in 1,383 mins (1.95 ppg60)

ES/PP TOI & Points Last 2 Years:
Couturier - 76 points in 2,372 mins (1.92 pp60)
Kadri - 84 points in 2,656 mins (1.89 pp60)


Now, statistics all need to be read in context, and you can make numbers say whatever you want - i do it for a living. But these advanced statistics - that you requested - seem to indicate Couturiers offensive output, relative to usage, is better than Kadri's.

 

[Ruki]

PHI:
Couturier

TOR:
Kadri
Marner

Philly probably still hangs up. Couturier is elite. Points don't matter.

I think you have brain damage.

 

[4thline]

Oh look, a DocBrown thread made to stir **** up. How fun.

 

[Brock Radunske]

PHI:
Couturier

TOR:
Kadri
Marner

Philly probably still hangs up. Couturier is elite. Points don't matter.

I think you have brain damage.

Agreed.
A little early to be drinking mid-week...

 

[Starat327]

Agreed.
A little early to be drinking mid-week...

Flyers would have to go find a 3c capable of playing defensive minutes, or trading Schenn for one and move KAdri to LW. But on value, this is a easy home-run for Philly. Team make up wise? They're screwed and they'd have to hope they can just outscore people to win games.

 

[Giterdun21]

I can't believe people are saying Couturier is overrated, he is a great player with room to grow. He's a guy who gives you 45-55 points while playing top tier defense, that's absolutely a top 6 center in my book. On the other hand, Kadri is making huge strides. I never really though he would shape up but it finally looks like he is maturing and really improving his defensive game and effort. I'd say Couturier has a slight edge, but adding Brown is just too much. He's a fantastic prospect who has a ton of potential.

I can see why both sides don't like this deal... As a leafs fan I don't think the difference between Couturier and Kadri warrants a prospect like Brown, but for Philly Couturier is most likely invaluable and only worth trading for an obvious overpayment.

 

[Brock Radunske]

I can't believe people are saying Couturier is overrated, he is a great player with room to grow. He's a guy who gives you 45-55 points while playing top tier defense, that's absolutely a top 6 center in my book. On the other hand, Kadri is making huge strides. I never really though he would shape up but it finally looks like he is maturing and really improving his defensive game and effort. I'd say Couturier has a slight edge, but adding Brown is just too much. He's a fantastic prospect who has a ton of potential.

I can see why both sides don't like this deal... As a leafs fan I don't think the difference between Couturier and Kadri warrants a prospect like Brown, but for Philly Couturier is most likely invaluable and only worth trading for an obvious overpayment.

I'm sorry, what years did he produce that?
Look, I'm a Couturier fan but that's just factually incorrect t.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

I'll make it easy for you - courtesy of 1865.


ES/PP TOI & Points Last Year:
Couturier - 39 points in 1,055 mins (2.21 pp60)
Kadri - 45 points in 1,383 mins (1.95 ppg60)

ES/PP TOI & Points Last 2 Years:
Couturier - 76 points in 2,372 mins (1.92 pp60)
Kadri - 84 points in 2,656 mins (1.89 pp60)


Now, statistics all need to be read in context, and you can make numbers say whatever you want - i do it for a living. But these advanced statistics - that you requested - seem to indicate Couturiers offensive output, relative to usage, is better than Kadri's.

I'm also huge into statistics. We both know that context is huge and yes numbers can be spun anyway. Kadri's 45 points lead the team while Couturier's 39 points were 6th on the team.
While Couturier got hot in the 2nd half, Kadri became normal in the last 2/3 of the season. His sh% was so unlucky (JUST like Voracek's at the start of the season) at a sh% around 2. It rose to normal later in the season, and he produced at the level we were expecting (55-60 pt center). The last 2 years have also been Toronto's worst years in so long, yet Kadri's been dynamite with no point totals to show for. That's directly related to the low on-ice sh% resulting from the lack of high QoT on the rebuilding team. For example, Grabner last year missed out on at least 10-15 breakaways/tap-ins that should have been easy goals. I'm sure some will say the same thing can be said for Couturier, but that's not true if we look at his on-ice sh% last year.

For this thread though, I don't do this deal. I do think Couturier is slightly the better player because I value defensive studs like Couturier a lot. But adding Brown doesn't make sense for me.

 

[buttman*]

PHI:
Couturier

TOR:
Kadri
Marner

Philly probably still hangs up. Couturier is elite. Points don't matter.

You're _______

 

[Starat327]

I'm also huge into statistics. We both know that context is huge and yes numbers can be spun anyway. Kadri's 45 points lead the team while Couturier's 39 points were 6th on the team.
While Couturier got hot in the 2nd half, Kadri became normal in the last 2/3 of the season. His sh% was so unlucky (JUST like Voracek's at the start of the season) at a sh% around 2. It rose to normal later in the season, and he produced at the level we were expecting (55-60 pt center). The last 2 years have also been Toronto's worst years in so long, yet Kadri's been dynamite with no point totals to show for. That's directly related to the low on-ice sh% resulting from the lack of high QoT on the rebuilding team. For example, Grabner last year missed out on at least 10-15 breakaways/tap-ins that should have been easy goals. I'm sure some will say the same thing can be said for Couturier, but that's not true if we look at his on-ice sh% last year.

For this thread though, I don't do this deal. I do think Couturier is slightly the better player because I value defensive studs like Couturier a lot. But adding Brown doesn't make sense for me.

I agree with you. Flyers fans understand the context and nuances to Couturiers usage much better than Toronto fans, and vice versa for Kadri. There are very few who would call Kadri a bad player - I wanted him as a 2LW when he was still new and playing wing a bit. But due to our intimate knowledge of Couturiers usage and importance to the team, we cant move him, even if the theoretical 'value' is in our favor. Some can call it overrating him - i like to call it actually watching and not just looking at stats. I dont think he'll every break 60 or 65 points in a season. But what he does bring is a defensive game that is among the tops in the NHL.

 

[Incetardis]

Value wise I'd say its about perfect. Couturier because of his age and role has slightly more value than Kadri. Kadri's all around game is underrated on here and he is the better offensive player. Add in the pest/physicality of Kadri and I'd say he's the better player today but no Flyers fan would ever admit that so I'll give the small plus to Couts which Brown more than makes up for. Couturier has more value as the shut down 2way center playing behind offensive players like Giroux, Vorachek, Schenn, etc so I can't see them having interest unless the cost certainty of Kadri is appealing moving forward which I know Leafs management likes. Close but no from both teams I'm sure

 

[AtlasRust]

a powerplay that had giroux,voracek,simmonds,schenn,ghost etc right?

check who kadri played with on unit 2

Dude, your excuse game is off the charts.

Coots barely gets any PP time with the Flyers considering those players that you mentioned - they're the first unit... If Coots was on the PP he was playing with Ryan White.

 

[AtlasRust]

Leafs pass, French players never work out in Toronto.

He was born in Pheonix.

Edit: This summarizes most fan's knowledge of Sean Couturier, especially evident in this thread... Kadri is decent, but he's no Sean Couturier, nor could he hope to be. Sean had at higher hockey IQ at 19 than Kadri will ever have.

 

[AtlasRust]

What advanced stats show his offensive numbers would be better ?

If you bothered reading the thread you'd already see several posters show you those advanced stats.

 

[MustardTigers]

What is this So Couturier is more valuable than say Corey Perry?

Couturier has never touched 40 points once in his career, and he`s turning 24 in a couple months. The guy is a 3rd line C, albeit with elite defense. At 22 Kadri had 44 points in 48 games. No way does Toronto trade a young 2C and a top 5 prospect for that.

If you reference the one season he had three years ago, you should maybe also discuss the seasons since then. Where Kadri hasn't played at that level.

This thread will be a stalemate, Couts is the golden child for a lot of Flyers fans because his defensive fancy stats are off the charts good. Meanwhile Leaf fans will mention he doesn't score enough goals to match.

 

[Garbage Goal]

lets just disregard powerplay then?
5v5 points per 60? really?

Kadri has outscored couts 4 straight years. his worst season equalled couts career high...numbers dont lie

You do realize those 5v5 points per 60 he posted are in fact numbers...right?

 

[LeafSteel]

A little non-sense on both sides.

Would trade Kadri in a heart beat for Couts, but the trade makes no sense from either side. Couts is too important to Philly to just take back Kadri, and the Leafs are not in a place to part with a great prospect like Brown.

Let's agree there is not a fit here, without crapping on these players or prospects.