Prospect Info: Phantoms (AHL), Reading Royals (ECHL), NCAA, Jrs., Int'l, etc. [The Fall 2022 Edition]

[Beef Invictus]

Like whom? You make blanket statements all the time without support.

Because if I provide the support you wave it off without any kind of a real rebuttal. For years I littered my posts with examples and support. It's a waste of time. You insist on believing your made-up reality.

Watch the rest of the NHL play. The Flyers may as well change to long-shift hockey and use wooden sticks with their style of play.

Here's an example, readily observable in all other teams: damned near every other team in the league, when they rush up ice, looks to set up a situation where a rusher can split the D or push them to make a mistake and leave the initial or secondary carrier open. The Flyers don't. Even if they start with someone in position to rush the slot, that player inevitably swings wide to be ready for the option of grinding the boards; it's also a longer and more dangerous pass to set them up, which just makes settling into the grind most likely. Other teams play with the focus on forcing mistakes and creating chances. The Flyers play with the focus on being ready to grind. They're the most regressive offense in the league by far.

 

[landsbergfan]

imagine if they did this in a real game

 

[Strawberry Fields]

imagine if they did this in a real game

Tortorella would personally see to it that their heads wound up on pikes outside the arena

 

[deadhead]

Because if I provide the support you wave it off without any kind of a real rebuttal. For years I littered my posts with examples and support. It's a waste of time. You insist on believing your made-up reality.

Watch the rest of the NHL play. The Flyers may as well change to long-shift hockey and use wooden sticks with their style of play.

Here's an example, readily observable in all other teams: damned near every other team in the league, when they rush up ice, looks to set up a situation where a rusher can split the D or push them to make a mistake and leave the initial or secondary carrier open. The Flyers don't. Even if they start with someone in position to rush the slot, that player inevitably swings wide to be ready for the option of grinding the boards; it's also a longer and more dangerous pass to set them up, which just makes settling into the grind most likely. Other teams play with the focus on forcing mistakes and creating chances. The Flyers play with the focus on being ready to grind. They're the most regressive offense in the league by far.

Readily observable only with top forwards, or why do I see opposing teams constantly dump and chase?
Maybe because talented forwards who can skate and puck handle well enough to split the D are rare?

 

[FatTugboatFlahr]

The Goalie didn’t bite on the fake or the wrap???

 

[deadhead]

JOB is going to be an interesting decision. Anyone see him play this year?
Do you sign him or take #53? in the 2024 draft.
Figure if you can reasonably project him to a middle six role you sign him, if he looks marginal, take the pick.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Readily observable only with top forwards, or why do I see opposing teams constantly dump and chase?
Maybe because talented forwards who can skate and puck handle well enough to split the D are rare?

Not just top forwards, actually. It's the norm on offense now. Like I said. Watch the NHL. You'll find bottom sixers trying to push right up the slot and playing for possession and setting up chances instead of trying to kill clock until their shift ends. It's been this way for a long time. That level of efficiency is a requirement for operating successfully under the Cap. Only the Flyers still have absolutely no idea how the Cap Era works.

Those bottoms sixers are certainly less successful at it than the top lines. But they still try to make those opportunities.

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

"Thinking processes. Brain stuff. Stuff that needs to happen so fast it's instinct."

yeah.....it comes NATURALLY.....a player either has it or doesn't

period .....now YOU'VE learned sumpin'

That simply isn't true. Nail Yakupov was one of the most talented players his draft year and he stank when he got to the NHL. A big reason for that was development. Edmonton had no plan in place on how to bring Yakupov along. You can also make a case for Nolan Patrick here as well.

Development is more than just systems and playing the game. EVERYONE knows how to play the game. The problem is how coaches process the game.

Some coaches don't want defensemen to lead rushes or carry the puck out of the defensive zone. So, if you've got a defenseman that leads rushes and carries the puck out of the defensive zone regularly, coaching that aspect out of their game can have a significant effect on how they process what to do with the puck.

Normally the instinct for these type of defenders is to take off with the puck and skate it up ice. But, because you're told not to do that or your ice time gets cut, then there's just that slight delay to not race the puck up ice. That's just enough time for a forechecker to be on the defenseman and you've got a turnover.

Now, picture that this is your development path for years, then an interim coach comes in and says 'rely on your instinct and go with your gut.' Now, you've been developed a certain way, your instincts are no longer sharp and now you're being asked to rely on those again. So, there's another adjustment period. But wait, it gets better. After you've adjusted and things are looking good, you've now got a new head coach who says he's going to be hands off and he's going to leave things to his assistant and the assistant says "you can carry the puck, but you can't lead a rush. As well, once you get to the blueline, you have to dump the puck in and get back on defense, but if there's any opportunity to take a chance to create offense, do so, but don't create a turnover." Now you've got a real mess.

And finally, a new head coach comes in and says we're going to do things different and now you have to be aggressive, but defensively responsible.

And this is how a franchise muddies up the development aspect and wastes prospects.

Look at how Provorov has become a shell of himself. Rather than come up with a proper development path for Provorov, they just shoved him like a square peg into a round hole and now he can't even think the game anymore because his thinking is now just get rid of the puck and the skills that he used to be blessed with (carrying the puck out of the zone, puck handling and skating with the puck) are no longer prevalent in his game. That's pretty much been coached out of him.

You can also say the same for Sanheim. A guy who is blessed with terrific wheels and could handle the puck is now so uptight about making a mistake that he just gets rid of it as soon as he gets it. Once again, those God given skills and abilities he was born with are being coached right out of him because 'system' and 'playing the game the right way' cliche.

Here's another of looking at it. You have an offensive defenseman capable of scoring 60 to 70 points a year. Are you as a coach asking him to become a shutdown defensive defenseman? No, because you know that he brings a specific skill set to the offensive side of the game and to not use them in that role is a waste of an asset. It's the same thing with asking a shutdown defensive defenseman to all of a sudden quarterback the power play. It doesn't utilize their skill set and it's a waste of an asset. And that is Flyers development in a nutshell.

 

[mr4tno]

JOB is going to be an interesting decision. Anyone see him play this year?
Do you sign him or take #53? in the 2024 draft.
Figure if you can reasonably project him to a middle six role you sign him, if he looks marginal, take the pick.

I think he is around 6th in scoring on his team after a slow start. He has an insanely low shooting % (close to the team lead in shots). The -4 on a team where almost everyone else is a + is a concern

JOB is going to be an interesting decision. Anyone see him play this year?
Do you sign him or take #53? in the 2024 draft.
Figure if you can reasonably project him to a middle six role you sign him, if he looks marginal, take the pick.

I would take a chance and sign him. CF will trade the 2nd anyway for God knows what.....

 

[deadhead]

That simply isn't true. Nail Yakupov was one of the most talented players his draft year and he stank when he got to the NHL. A big reason for that was development. Edmonton had no plan in place on how to bring Yakupov along. You can also make a case for Nolan Patrick here as well.

Development is more than just systems and playing the game. EVERYONE knows how to play the game. The problem is how coaches process the game.

And finally, a new head coach comes in and says we're going to do things different and now you have to be aggressive, but defensively responsible.

And this is how a franchise muddies up the development aspect and wastes prospects.

Look at how Provorov has become a shell of himself. Rather than come up with a proper development path for Provorov, they just shoved him like a square peg into a round hole and now he can't even think the game anymore because his thinking is now just get rid of the puck and the skills that he used to be blessed with (carrying the puck out of the zone, puck handling and skating with the puck) are no longer prevalent in his game. That's pretty much been coached out of him.

You can also say the same for Sanheim. A guy who is blessed with terrific wheels and could handle the puck is now so uptight about making a mistake that he just gets rid of it as soon as he gets it. Once again, those God given skills and abilities he was born with are being coached right out of him because 'system' and 'playing the game the right way' cliche.

Here's another of looking at it. You have an offensive defenseman capable of scoring 60 to 70 points a year. Are you as a coach asking him to become a shutdown defensive defenseman? No, because you know that he brings a specific skill set to the offensive side of the game and to not use them in that role is a waste of an asset. It's the same thing with asking a shutdown defensive defenseman to all of a sudden quarterback the power play. It doesn't utilize their skill set and it's a waste of an asset. And that is Flyers development in a nutshell.

That happens on every team, some players can adjust, others have to ship out.

Look at Barzel, puts up 100 points in an wide open system, then Trotz comes in and he learns to play an elite two way game, now he's being allowed to be more of a scorer. Good players can adjust - that's one of the things that makes them good players!

If you have an offensive defenseman who can't/won't learn to play defense, you use him on the PP, O-zone faceoffs and the 3rd pair where you can shelter him, you don't use him in all situations on the 1st pair. Which is what will happen with TDA eventually if he doesn't improve defensively - but right now they're challenging him b/c in a rebuilding season, why not? If Ghost is traded to a good team that's the role he'll be acquired to fill.

Sanheim had no problem opening his game up last season under Yeo, once he got away from AV. And Torts' scheme encourages D-men to skate and attack the O-zone, I think he just was pressing due to wanting to live up to his new contract, that happens, seems to be relaxing the last few weeks.

Provorov is just a head case, and it may well be he was in such good shape at 19 that what you saw as a rookie was all there is - which would be fine if they can acquire another "Niskanen."

 

[BigToe]

 

[Beef Invictus]

That simply isn't true. Nail Yakupov was one of the most talented players his draft year and he stank when he got to the NHL. A big reason for that was development. Edmonton had no plan in place on how to bring Yakupov along. You can also make a case for Nolan Patrick here as well.

Development is more than just systems and playing the game. EVERYONE knows how to play the game. The problem is how coaches process the game.

Some coaches don't want defensemen to lead rushes or carry the puck out of the defensive zone. So, if you've got a defenseman that leads rushes and carries the puck out of the defensive zone regularly, coaching that aspect out of their game can have a significant effect on how they process what to do with the puck.

Normally the instinct for these type of defenders is to take off with the puck and skate it up ice. But, because you're told not to do that or your ice time gets cut, then there's just that slight delay to not race the puck up ice. That's just enough time for a forechecker to be on the defenseman and you've got a turnover.

Now, picture that this is your development path for years, then an interim coach comes in and says 'rely on your instinct and go with your gut.' Now, you've been developed a certain way, your instincts are no longer sharp and now you're being asked to rely on those again. So, there's another adjustment period. But wait, it gets better. After you've adjusted and things are looking good, you've now got a new head coach who says he's going to be hands off and he's going to leave things to his assistant and the assistant says "you can carry the puck, but you can't lead a rush. As well, once you get to the blueline, you have to dump the puck in and get back on defense, but if there's any opportunity to take a chance to create offense, do so, but don't create a turnover." Now you've got a real mess.

And finally, a new head coach comes in and says we're going to do things different and now you have to be aggressive, but defensively responsible.

And this is how a franchise muddies up the development aspect and wastes prospects.

Look at how Provorov has become a shell of himself. Rather than come up with a proper development path for Provorov, they just shoved him like a square peg into a round hole and now he can't even think the game anymore because his thinking is now just get rid of the puck and the skills that he used to be blessed with (carrying the puck out of the zone, puck handling and skating with the puck) are no longer prevalent in his game. That's pretty much been coached out of him.

You can also say the same for Sanheim. A guy who is blessed with terrific wheels and could handle the puck is now so uptight about making a mistake that he just gets rid of it as soon as he gets it. Once again, those God given skills and abilities he was born with are being coached right out of him because 'system' and 'playing the game the right way' cliche.

Here's another of looking at it. You have an offensive defenseman capable of scoring 60 to 70 points a year. Are you as a coach asking him to become a shutdown defensive defenseman? No, because you know that he brings a specific skill set to the offensive side of the game and to not use them in that role is a waste of an asset. It's the same thing with asking a shutdown defensive defenseman to all of a sudden quarterback the power play. It doesn't utilize their skill set and it's a waste of an asset. And that is Flyers development in a nutshell.

The Flyers were in the midst of destroying Patrick before all the brain stuff. He entered the team as a fantastic passer with the best passing touch on the team. It was my favorite part of his game. He had the makings of someone who'd just be easy as hell for anyone to play with. By his second year his passing was vastly worse. Unrecognizable from what he started with. That's how much damage the team did in a short period.

 

[Beef Invictus]

That happens on every team, some players can adjust, others have to ship out.

Look at Barzel, puts up 100 points in an wide open system, then Trotz comes in and he learns to play an elite two way game, now he's being allowed to be more of a scorer. Good players can adjust - that's one of the things that makes them good players!

If you have an offensive defenseman who can't/won't learn to play defense, you use him on the PP, O-zone faceoffs and the 3rd pair where you can shelter him, you don't use him in all situations on the 1st pair. Which is what will happen with TDA eventually if he doesn't improve defensively - but right now they're challenging him b/c in a rebuilding season, why not? If Ghost is traded to a good team that's the role he'll be acquired to fill.

Sanheim had no problem opening his game up last season under Yeo, once he got away from AV. And Torts' scheme encourages D-men to skate and attack the O-zone, I think he just was pressing due to wanting to live up to his new contract, that happens, seems to be relaxing the last few weeks.

Provorov is just a head case, and it may well be he was in such good shape at 19 that what you saw as a rookie was all there is - which would be fine if they can acquire another "Niskanen."

It does not happen at the alarming rate the Flyers do it, nor with the caliber of prospects that they have botched and screwed up. No other team has these struggles this often or this severely, including with prospects widely considered can't-miss.

Provorov is well past needing a magical partner to fix him. Those days are dead and gone. He's ruined.

Aside: Everyone mark NISKANEN off your bingo cards

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

That happens on every team, some players can adjust, others have to ship out.

Look at Barzel, puts up 100 points in an wide open system, then Trotz comes in and he learns to play an elite two way game, now he's being allowed to be more of a scorer. Good players can adjust - that's one of the things that makes them good players!

If you have an offensive defenseman who can't/won't learn to play defense, you use him on the PP, O-zone faceoffs and the 3rd pair where you can shelter him, you don't use him in all situations on the 1st pair. Which is what will happen with TDA eventually if he doesn't improve defensively - but right now they're challenging him b/c in a rebuilding season, why not? If Ghost is traded to a good team that's the role he'll be acquired to fill.

Sanheim had no problem opening his game up last season under Yeo, once he got away from AV. And Torts' scheme encourages D-men to skate and attack the O-zone, I think he just was pressing due to wanting to live up to his new contract, that happens, seems to be relaxing the last few weeks.

Provorov is just a head case, and it may well be he was in such good shape at 19 that what you saw as a rookie was all there is - which would be fine if they can acquire another "Niskanen."

Had Trotz ever publicly said that he is asking his offensive players to not play offensive hockey? Nope. Big difference there - Trotz understands that while players need to play defense, to take away their skill that sets then sorry from other players is suicide. Nice try though.

And let's be honest about Trotz. He has a history of getting his offensive players to buy into his system because he also allows them to play offense. Look at the coaches pay Laviolette who coached the Flyers and not a single one has embraced offensive hockey. It's been tight checking, left wing lock, grind it out trap hockey, even when there was viable talent.

And seeing as to how you can't read, I'll post this again. If you have a defenseman that is scoring 60 to 70 points a season, the last thing you're doing is trying to convert him into a shutdown defender. And most of these offensive defenseman are pretty good defensively because they have the puck most of the time. And they can skate and handle the puck well. But I'm sure you already knew that. This is just semantics now to justify how this franchise tried to ruin Ghost. They wanted him to become a defensive stopper and that was never going to happen. And rather than use him in a role that he excelled in, they banished him after he called out the franchise. That's your management group right there. And you can bet that Schmuck went to Uncle Bob and you can bet Uncle Bob told him to move Ghost at any cost.

And yes, the Flyers also suck at asset management. That's a topic for another day.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Had Trotz ever publicly said that he is asking his offensive players to not play offensive hockey? Nope. Big difference there - Trotz understands that while players need to play defense, to take away their skill that sets then sorry from other players is suicide. Nice try though.

And let's be honest about Trotz. He has a history of getting his offensive players to buy into his system because he also allows them to play offense. Look at the coaches pay Laviolette who coached the Flyers and not a single one has embraced offensive hockey. It's been tight checking, left wing lock, grind it out trap hockey, even when there was viable talent.

And seeing as to how you can't read, I'll post this again. If you have a defenseman that is scoring 60 to 70 points a season, the last thing you're doing is trying to convert him into a shutdown defender. And most of these offensive defenseman are pretty good defensively because they have the puck most of the time. And they can skate and handle the puck well. But I'm sure you already knew that. This is just semantics now to justify how this franchise tried to ruin Ghost. They wanted him to become a defensive stopper and that was never going to happen. And rather than use him in a role that he excelled in, they banished him after he called out the franchise. That's your management group right there. And you can bet that Schmuck went to Uncle Bob and you can bet Uncle Bob told him to move Ghost at any cost.

And yes, the Flyers also suck at asset management. That's a topic for another day.

It is very rare that Trotz has had the skill to run an offensive team. He got that in Washington, and lo and behold; he didn't run a defensive meat-grinder. He actually ran one of my favorite offenses in a long time.

Hand Tortorella any talent and he's trying to figure out how to get them grinding and collapsing around the perimeter of their HQ shot area to block shots.

 

[deadhead]

When does Torts tell his players not to play offense?
What he tells them is to play hard WITHOUT THE PUCK, which is a different matter, he won't abide offensive players who take shifts off when they don't have the puck.

St. Louis, Atkinson, Panarin, offensive forwards do just fine playing for him.

 

[Beef Invictus]

When does Torts tell his players not to play offense?
What he tells them is to play hard WITHOUT THE PUCK, which is a different matter, he won't abide offensive players who take shifts off when they don't have the puck.

St. Louis, Atkinson, Panarin, offensive forwards do just fine playing for him.

When he has them run a perimeter offense to focus on safety while vilifying "high risk" plays that create goals, he may as well tell them not to bother playing offense. There's a reason why he routinely oversees a deficient offensive output.

You named a few forwards who would play well for anyone. Oh boy. Stunning. Giroux and Voracek managed to play well for Hakstol too. That doesn't exactly prove anything. Someone is going to score on a team, and it's usually going to be the best players if they're used remotely right.

 

[deadhead]

When he has them run a perimeter offense to focus on safety while vilifying "high risk" plays that create goals, he may as well tell them not to bother playing offense. There's a reason why he routinely oversees a deficient offensive output.

You named a few forwards who would play well for anyone. Oh boy. Stunning. Giroux and Voracek managed to play well for Hakstol too. That doesn't exactly prove anything. Someone is going to score on a team, and it's usually going to be the best players if they're used remotely right.

The best players get the leeway to be creative.
The second tier talents don't, because they have a tendency to create offense for the wrong team.
We don't have very many "best" players.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The best players get the leeway to be creative.
The second tier talents don't, because they have a tendency to create offense for the wrong team.
We don't have very many "best" players.

The bolded is the exact thinking that holds this team back and helps them be offensively terrible.

 

[deadhead]

The bolded is the exact thinking that holds this team back and helps them be offensively terrible.

What makes them offensively terrible is lack of talent. Pure and simple.

 

[Beef Invictus]

What makes them offensively terrible is lack of talent. Pure and simple.

Yes, Fletcher has definitely wrecked the team on that front. Playing to suppress offense further also harms their offensive output. And even if there were talent, would be a massive problem. That problem doesn't just go away with an influx of talent. It continues to exist.

 

[FLYguy3911]

 

[deadhead]

Samson.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Lmao. I legitimately have no idea who Ethan Samson is. Pretty accurate reflection of my level of care right now.

 

[deadhead]

Good sized RHD (6'1 181 at the draft), still learning how to play defense, which is funny, cause going into the draft he was advertised as a defensive defenseman.
August birthday, so he was really young for his draft class.
Looked a bit clueless in rookie camp, started slow this season but has come on strong since.
22g 6-12 18 -3