Peterborough Petes 2023-24 Season Thread (Part One)

[frontsfan67]

No one wanted to play for Wilson
Many wanted to be part of a potential winner.

Villeneuve will not likely be traded because the cost will be too high. Other 17 yr olds Idk. I’m sure Papineau’s past dealings has him braced for high asks; and, he is the best positioned to pay.

If villeneuve is traded it will be for an upgraded 18/19 year old centre

 

[dirty12]

If villeneuve is traded it will be for an upgraded 18/19 year old centre

Or RW or LD, yes. But the wolves have a silly amount of picks both disposable and conditionally held, and an ‘07-1st on the fourth line no higher than 5th on the LW depth chart; so, the wolves will likely only move their 17 yr old lottery pick for greater than expected value. You don’t really believe Villeneuve can be had for much less than Stillman?
The Petes can only forgo ‘24 picks in a Beck deal, possibly plus Mayer if insisting on Villeneuve, because the Petes plan to move McCoy and/or Melee.

 

[Section7fan]

Sudbury fans are funny. They want the best players available at the deadline but don’t want to trade anything to get them. One would think that any Sudbury fan would want his GM to do everything in his power to make the most of a contending team especially since their team has never won anything ever lol.

 

[OMG67]

Sudbury fans are funny. They want the best players available at the deadline but don’t want to trade anything to get them. One would think that any Sudbury fan would want his GM to do everything in his power to make the most of a contending team especially since their team has never won anything ever lol.

That is not the case. The issue is the difference in perceived value of the assets being mentioned.

IMO, there seems to be a sense amongst some fans that a player like Villeneuve (#3 overall in 2022) is worth less than what JVV was worth last year. The proposals that Beck would go to Sudbury for Villeneuve plus a big basket of premium picks is silly. If you are getting a significantly high value young prospect like Villeneuve, you are sacrificing the picks portion.

The Petes managed to get Beck as an 18 year old but it seems like the expected return would be similar to what they traded to get him. I don’t think that is realistic. But, that is because of a differenc eof opinion on the value of Villeneuve.

I usually prefer to equate trades back to their picks value. The reason why is there is a massive difference in value between a 16th overall 1st rounder and a 5th overall 1st rounder. I think most would agree that Beck is likely worth a 2023 1st round pick plus a picks package. However, the picks package will be heavily affected by the prospect rating of the player they get.

A good example for what Beck is worth would be the DelMaestro trade last year vs the MacT trade the year previous. What was the big difference? Pharand as a 14th overall pick vs Martone as a 5th overall pick. Martone and a 2nd for Del Maestro vs Pharand, Melee, two 2nds and two 3rds for MacT.

So, again, the question is not whether Sudbury fans want to give up assets. The question is the value of the assets. I agree that Villeneuve’s value is much closer to that of JVV and Martone than Pharand. I don’t think it is realistic to expect Villeneuve plus two 2nds and three 3rds which has been presented on this thread and agreed by many as the market value for Beck.

Besides, why would Peterborough want Villeneuve if he isn’t a top prospect? If sort of goes against wha the objective is. Is the objective to get an “OK” player and a bunch of picks? If so, why not just go get a bigger basket of picks? If Mintyukov went for nine picks last year (3 each of 2nds, 3rds, 4ths) then restock your whole picks cabinet in one fell swoop. Why bother getting a bust 3rd overall pick, if that is how Villeneuve is viewed?

 

[PuckStop75]

That is not the case. The issue is the difference in perceived value of the assets being mentioned.

IMO, there seems to be a sense amongst some fans that a player like Villeneuve (#3 overall in 2022) is worth less than what JVV was worth last year. The proposals that Beck would go to Sudbury for Villeneuve plus a big basket of premium picks is silly. If you are getting a significantly high value young prospect like Villeneuve, you are sacrificing the picks portion.

The Petes managed to get Beck as an 18 year old but it seems like the expected return would be similar to what they traded to get him. I don’t think that is realistic. But, that is because of a differenc eof opinion on the value of Villeneuve.

I usually prefer to equate trades back to their picks value. The reason why is there is a massive difference in value between a 16th overall 1st rounder and a 5th overall 1st rounder. I think most would agree that Beck is likely worth a 2023 1st round pick plus a picks package. However, the picks package will be heavily affected by the prospect rating of the player they get.

A good example for what Beck is worth would be the DelMaestro trade last year vs the MacT trade the year previous. What was the big difference? Pharand as a 14th overall pick vs Martone as a 5th overall pick. Martone and a 2nd for Del Maestro vs Pharand, Melee, two 2nds and two 3rds for MacT.

So, again, the question is not whether Sudbury fans want to give up assets. The question is the value of the assets. I agree that Villeneuve’s value is much closer to that of JVV and Martone than Pharand. I don’t think it is realistic to expect Villeneuve plus two 2nds and three 3rds which has been presented on this thread and agreed by many as the market value for Beck.

Besides, why would Peterborough want Villeneuve if he isn’t a top prospect? If sort of goes against wha the objective is. Is the objective to get an “OK” player and a bunch of picks? If so, why not just go get a bigger basket of picks? If Mintyukov went for nine picks last year (3 each of 2nds, 3rds, 4ths) then restock your whole picks cabinet in one fell swoop. Why bother getting a bust 3rd overall pick, if that is how Villeneuve is viewed?

I don't think this is a skills assessment or value thing for many fans, what they know is they have an empty draft cupboard and players to replenish this year and like every fan, they want it ALL. They want the players, picks and to contend again this year which is just not possible. Knowing a little about the Petes organization, the starting price is high and there will be a lot of posturing that has to go on before a deal is struck. There won't be a competent GM in the league that believes the Petes are fine with just rolling things over, no matter what has been said or not said in the Media.

Beck will likely get a 1st rounder (eq. 2-2nds & 1-3rd) + a 2nd and 3rd this year, to be direct about the situation: he is a valuable player to a contending team but not on the same level as MacT, Del Mastro or Mintyukov.

 

[PuckStop75]

On a separate but related note, given the nature of the league this year the market on players like Lefebvre, Purdeller, Melee, and McCoy might have more favorable returns for the team as there seems to be a higher demand for this type of player to polish and complete rosters for teams with less draft pick/asset capital to work with.

 

[OMG67]

On a separate but related note, given the nature of the league this year the market on players like Lefebvre, Purdeller, Melee, and McCoy might have more favorable returns for the team as there seems to be a higher demand for this type of player to polish and complete rosters for teams with less draft pick/asset capital to work with.

That may be true but even with a higher demand, it likely means more move, not that the cost to acquire will be higher. I think in most years, those types of players are available in volume. The reason we don’t see that many move is because the demand is low. The cost to acquire will remain similar, a 6th to 12th round pick or two 8ths etc. Leskovar (PET) for a 5th and 10th is an example or maybe Quick (OTT) for a 7th last year would be examples. We may see teams move more of those guys provided they have players in the organization that can replace them.

Ottawa has Yanni (F), Dietsch (D), and Nelson (G) as 16 year olds and three open underage roster spots available That are signed to affiliate cards. Ottawa could trade guys like Sirman, Donoso, and Stonehouse for picks and simply bring those three guys up to replace them on the roster. I am sure there are a lot of other teams with 16 and 17 year olds they have on affiliate cards in the same situation. If teams can move a 19 year old depth player for a 6th round pick and replace them internally with a younger prospect and they are rebuilding, I think they will do it almost 100% of the time. But, I don’t think the opportunities are there as much as maybe they are this year.

I do agree that we may see more teams nibble at the fringes but I’m not sure guys like McCoy would be in the same category as Lefebvre. I’d probably classify Lefebvre in the depth side whereas guys like McCoy are front line type players that will carry a significant trade value. I think we may see more guys at the Melee Level be traded. I consider him more of the nibble at the fringes sort of player. A Championship calibre team would love to add a guy like that to their third line to help create three balanced lines of scoring. The cost won’t be prohibitive (not free of course).

 

[PuckStop75]

That may be true but even with a higher demand, it likely means more move, not that the cost to acquire will be higher. I think in most years, those types of players are available in volume. The reason we don’t see that many move is because the demand is low. The cost to acquire will remain similar, a 6th to 12th round pick or two 8ths etc. Leskovar (PET) for a 5th and 10th is an example or maybe Quick (OTT) for a 7th last year would be examples. We may see teams move more of those guys provided they have players in the organization that can replace them.

Ottawa has Yanni (F), Dietsch (D), and Nelson (G) as 16 year olds and three open underage roster spots available That are signed to affiliate cards. Ottawa could trade guys like Sirman, Donoso, and Stonehouse for picks and simply bring those three guys up to replace them on the roster. I am sure there are a lot of other teams with 16 and 17 year olds they have on affiliate cards in the same situation. If teams can move a 19 year old depth player for a 6th round pick and replace them internally with a younger prospect and they are rebuilding, I think they will do it almost 100% of the time. But, I don’t think the opportunities are there as much as maybe they are this year.

I do agree that we may see more teams nibble at the fringes but I’m not sure guys like McCoy would be in the same category as Lefebvre. I’d probably classify Lefebvre in the depth side whereas guys like McCoy are front line type players that will carry a significant trade value. I think we may see more guys at the Melee Level be traded. I consider him more of the nibble at the fringes sort of player. A Championship calibre team would love to add a guy like that to their third line to help create three balanced lines of scoring. The cost won’t be prohibitive (not free of course).

Leskovar and Quick were roster card dumps to teams that had space for them. The group I listed are middle 6 (leFebvre on the low end of that) and in the case of McCoy and Melee top line guys who are bringing Championship and M-Cup experience which isn't plentifully available around the league but any team looking at a playoff run want to have. I like Sirman, Donoso and Stonehouse but we can't really put them in the same category, they have no pedigree which often is what teams are looking for.

We saw this back in 2019 when in a very similar year to this one Ottawa picked up Maksimovich (2-2nds, Cond. 2nd and rights to Swankle) and Chiodo (2nd & 3rd) for their run. I say similar to this year because the top teams were low on assets and the projected contenders were under achieving, Guelph ended up stealing Suzuki and Durzi from OS in an OA swap and for Kirwin, a 2nd, cond. 3rd and a 4th.

 

[OMG67]

Leskovar and Quick were roster card dumps to teams that had space for them. The group I listed are middle 6 (leFebvre on the low end of that) and in the case of McCoy and Melee top line guys who are bringing Championship and M-Cup experience which isn't plentifully available around the league but any team looking at a playoff run want to have. I like Sirman, Donoso and Stonehouse but we can't really put them in the same category, they have no pedigree which often is what teams are looking for.

We saw this back in 2019 when in a very similar year to this one Ottawa picked up Maksimovich (2-2nds, Cond. 2nd and rights to Swankle) and Chiodo (2nd & 3rd) for their run. I say similar to this year because the top teams were low on assets and the projected contenders were under achieving, Guelph ended up stealing Suzuki and Durzi from OS in an OA swap and for Kirwin, a 2nd, cond. 3rd and a 4th.

You didn’t mention Championship experience. I didn’t consider it.

Ottawa did acquire the MVP from the previous season and added him to the first place team and it didn’t really make a difference. London also added from Hamilton. Petes added two players as well from Hamilton. The Petes came out on top but I think that had a lot more to do with Spearing returning to the lineup and adding his leadership more so than Hayes and White.

Although I do agree adding players from the previous Championship winner is a benefit, I don’t think it is a substitute for adding more overall talent. Maybe more of a nice last piece at the right price Or as a tie-breaker.

 

[PuckStop75]

You didn’t mention Championship experience. I didn’t consider it.

Ottawa did acquire the MVP from the previous season and added him to the first place team and it didn’t really make a difference. London also added from Hamilton. Petes added two players as well from Hamilton. The Petes came out on top but I think that had a lot more to do with Spearing returning to the lineup and adding his leadership more so than Hayes and White.

Although I do agree adding players from the previous Championship winner is a benefit, I don’t think it is a substitute for adding more overall talent. Maybe more of a nice last piece at the right price Or as a tie-breaker.

I think we are agreeing with each other at this point

 

[NorthernVoice]

Petes added two players as well from Hamilton. The Petes came out on top but I think that had a lot more to do with Spearing returning to the lineup and adding his leadership more so than Hayes and White.

Hayes was a pretty huge addition. He was so clutch in the playoffs, never phased at all. If you want to chalk that up to playoff experience or just the type of player it is, that's up to you but I don't think we should undersell how big he was. White on the other hand...

 

[OMG67]

Hayes was a pretty huge addition. He was so clutch in the playoffs, never phased at all. If you want to chalk that up to playoff experience or just the type of player it is, that's up to you but I don't think we should undersell how big he was. White on the other hand...

I was only looking at it from a Championship pedigree perspective. I wans’t assessing any players individually. Like I mentioned, the Playoff MVP from the Championship the Bulldogs won, lost in the 2nd round on the team that was in first place. I don’t buy the Championship pedigree when it comes to depth players on the championship team. Those guys mostly watched the games from the bench. A kid like Lefebvre doesn’t have championship pedigree. He won a ring playing a handful of minutes.

If we are talking about the top end players, the top end players like Hayes, Winterton and Morrison are being acquired mostly because they are fantastic players. If Melee or Dubois get acquired, it is because both of them are performing at a high level. They aren’t being prioritized because they won a Championship, mostly because neither of those guys played a key role. They played depth roles. How important is that at the trade deadline? Maybe a little bit but their demonstrated performance in the here and now is far more important.

 

[Petes1987]

If villeneuve is traded it will be for an upgraded 18/19 year old centre

Sudbury fans are funny. They want the best players available at the deadline but don’t want to trade anything to get them. One would think that any Sudbury fan would want his GM to do everything in his power to make the most of a contending team especially since their team has never won anything ever lol.

You are right. It is ridiculous to suggest that the Petes would have to trade both Owen Beck who has won a gold medal with Team Canada and an OHL Championship, plays a 200 foot game, has 22 points in his last 16 games including 12 goals and is excellent on face offs and Sam Mayer who is also an OHL Champion and has 19 points in 21 games and no draft picks included for Nathan Villeneuve who is a good defensive forward but is only a half a point per game player in his 17 year old year.

 

[OHL4Life]

You are right. It is ridiculous to suggest that the Petes would have to trade both Owen Beck who has won a gold medal with Team Canada and an OHL Championship, plays a 200 foot game, has 22 points in his last 16 games including 12 goals and is excellent on face offs and Sam Mayer who is also an OHL Champion and has 19 points in 21 games and no draft picks included for Nathan Villeneuve who is a good defensive forward but is only a half a point per game player in his 17 year old year.

who says that its ridiculous? you said it was ridiculous on lockhart traded for anything other then what jack beck went for, yet here we are. simpson would not be traded, here we are.

respectfully, you can have an opinion, but you dont actually know what the petes will or will not do, your posts and the actual actions that the team has undertaken show that.

 

[OMG67]

You are right. It is ridiculous to suggest that the Petes would have to trade both Owen Beck who has won a gold medal with Team Canada and an OHL Championship, plays a 200 foot game, has 22 points in his last 16 games including 12 goals and is excellent on face offs and Sam Mayer who is also an OHL Champion and has 19 points in 21 games and no draft picks included for Nathan Villeneuve who is a good defensive forward but is only a half a point per game player in his 17 year old year.

In all fairness, JVV and Villeneuve are occupying the same space right now. You traded a player picked after Villeneuve that is performing at the same offensive output as Villeneuve and suggest the player you traded is more highly valued than the player targetted. I can understand an argument being the 16 year old is more valuable than the 17 year old but at the end of the day, only a small handful of 16 year olds actually perform at a level above development. Most 16 year olds in the league are trying to develop and the focus is not on output.

I honestly feel Villeneuve is more highly valued than a random mid-round pick from the 2023 draft. He can come in and make an immediate impact. His overall skill set shows a pretty high ceiling. Because he has a high ceiling and hasn’t tapped into it yet, it is likely he is at least a 4 year OHL player meaning he isn’t likely to graduate to the NHL early. The kid was a consensus top 5 pick last year and that draft was deep. Very deep at the top end. A lot of stellar players.

Expecting Villeneuve and multiple 2nds and 3rds for Beck when you pretty much traded that last year to acquire him isn’t realistic IMO. Villeneuve is a far better prospect than many give credit for. Too much looking at the offensive output. That kid is the type of kid that teams rely on to win. Maybe he won’t be a 100 point centre but he will likely be a very good two way centre that shadows the other teams first line. That is a very valuable piece. In fact, he is pretty much the spitting image of Beck himself…

 

[OHL4Life]

In all fairness, JVV and Villeneuve are occupying the same space right now. You traded a player picked after Villeneuve that is performing at the same offensive output as Villeneuve and suggest the player you traded is more highly valued than the player targetted. I can understand an argument being the 16 year old is more valuable than the 17 year old but at the end of the day, only a small handful of 16 year olds actually perform at a level above development. Most 16 year olds in the league are trying to develop and the focus is not on output.

I honestly feel Villeneuve is more highly valued than a random mid-round pick from the 2023 draft. He can come in and make an immediate impact. His overall skill set shows a pretty high ceiling. Because he has a high ceiling and hasn’t tapped into it yet, it is likely he is at least a 4 year OHL player meaning he isn’t likely to graduate to the NHL early. The kid was a consensus top 5 pick last year and that draft was deep. Very deep at the top end. A lot of stellar players.

Expecting Villeneuve and multiple 2nds and 3rds for Beck when you pretty much traded that last year to acquire him isn’t realistic IMO. Villeneuve is a far better prospect than many give credit for. Too much looking at the offensive output. That kid is the type of kid that teams rely on to win. Maybe he won’t be a 100 point centre but he will likely be a very good two way centre that shadows the other teams first line. That is a very valuable piece. In fact, he is pretty much the spitting image of Beck himself…

to your point, villenuve is the one guy that sudbury is telling teams that is untouchable. im pretty sure that if he was offered to peterborough, they would be very interested. he was coveted by many teams last year.

 

[BarberPole9]

Look at this post on Facebook Les 67′s à nouveau dans la course de la Ligue de l’Ontario

Rumour has it that the Kraken may return Tucker Robertson to the Petes.

This article, from a very plugged in writer suggests that the Petes will be selling.

 

[Section5Petes]

Look at this post on Facebook Les 67′s à nouveau dans la course de la Ligue de l’Ontario

Rumour has it that the Kraken may return Tucker Robertson to the Petes.

This article, from a very plugged in writer suggests that the Petes will be selling.

The day Tucker returns to the Petes is also the day he is flipped to Saginaw or London...

And yes the Petes will be sellers. Currently working on a Petes 'blueprint' that focuses on 2024/2025, 2025/2026

 

[frontsfan67]

Look at this post on Facebook Les 67′s à nouveau dans la course de la Ligue de l’Ontario

Rumour has it that the Kraken may return Tucker Robertson to the Petes.

This article, from a very plugged in writer suggests that the Petes will be selling.

I remember that guy from last year. He was pretty bang on

 

[dirty12]

I was only looking at it from a Championship pedigree perspective. I wans’t assessing any players individually. Like I mentioned, the Playoff MVP from the Championship the Bulldogs won, lost in the 2nd round on the team that was in first place. I don’t buy the Championship pedigree when it comes to depth players on the championship team. Those guys mostly watched the games from the bench. A kid like Lefebvre doesn’t have championship pedigree. He won a ring playing a handful of minutes.

If we are talking about the top end players, the top end players like Hayes, Winterton and Morrison are being acquired mostly because they are fantastic players. If Melee or Dubois get acquired, it is because both of them are performing at a high level. They aren’t being prioritized because they won a Championship, mostly because neither of those guys played a key role. They played depth roles. How important is that at the trade deadline? Maybe a little bit but their demonstrated performance in the here and now is far more important.

I disagree a bit, teams with championship aspirations need a few playoff tested players imo, not just one very high end offensive #2 centre from a champion.
LeFebvre would be an excellent 3rd line winger for some teams, Meele a middle six for any team.

 

[Petes1987]

In all fairness, JVV and Villeneuve are occupying the same space right now. You traded a player picked after Villeneuve that is performing at the same offensive output as Villeneuve and suggest the player you traded is more highly valued than the player targetted. I can understand an argument being the 16 year old is more valuable than the 17 year old but at the end of the day, only a small handful of 16 year olds actually perform at a level above development. Most 16 year olds in the league are trying to develop and the focus is not on output.

I honestly feel Villeneuve is more highly valued than a random mid-round pick from the 2023 draft. He can come in and make an immediate impact. His overall skill set shows a pretty high ceiling. Because he has a high ceiling and hasn’t tapped into it yet, it is likely he is at least a 4 year OHL player meaning he isn’t likely to graduate to the NHL early. The kid was a consensus top 5 pick last year and that draft was deep. Very deep at the top end. A lot of stellar players.

Expecting Villeneuve and multiple 2nds and 3rds for Beck when you pretty much traded that last year to acquire him isn’t realistic IMO. Villeneuve is a far better prospect than many give credit for. Too much looking at the offensive output. That kid is the type of kid that teams rely on to win. Maybe he won’t be a 100 point centre but he will likely be a very good two way centre that shadows the other teams first line. That is a very valuable piece. In fact, he is pretty much the spitting image of Beck himself…

The difference is Jack Van Volsen was 16 year old rookie who hardly had any ice time in his rookie season and was seen as a future offensive star when he was traded. Nathan Villeneuve is now in his second season playing in the top nine and is half a point a game player. I am starting to think the Petes will likely deal him to a team in the Western Conference so who Sudbury offers for him really does not matter.

 

[OMG67]

The difference is Jack Van Volsen was 16 year old rookie who hardly had any ice time in his rookie season and was seen as a future offensive star when he was traded. Nathan Villeneuve is now in his second season playing in the top nine and is half a point a game player. I am starting to think the Petes will likely deal him to a team in the Western Conference so who Sudbury offers for him really does not matter.

If the Beck deal ends up involving an ‘07, Sudbury and Kitchener are both solid options. To me, those are the two most likely options.

I find it interesting that when I bring up Beck’s lack of offensive production this season, he is defended because of his intangibles. I mention Villeneuve’s intangibles and they are ignored and the offensive stat line is highlighted. Petes fans can’t have it both ways. You can’t on one hand suggest Beck is elite and deserves an elite return in spite the lack of elite offence and then downgrade a prospect that is already showing many of the same attributes as Beck as a 17 year old. I get it. We differ on the valuation of Villeneuve. Not a big deal. But, at the same time, I stand by my assessment that many Petes fans are raising the bar for Beck so high that they will be disappointed at the end result trade.

 

[dirty12]

The difference is Jack Van Volsen was 16 year old rookie who hardly had any ice time in his rookie season and was seen as a future offensive star when he was traded. Nathan Villeneuve is now in his second season playing in the top nine and is half a point a game player. I am starting to think the Petes will likely deal him to a team in the Western Conference so who Sudbury offers for him really does not matter.

What was Lardis’ pt production in the top 9 of the Petes with little to no PP time?
On the Steelheads, Villeneuve would be top two LW or top two C.

 

[Petes1987]

I disagree a bit, teams with championship aspirations need a few playoff tested players imo, not just one very high end offensive #2 centre from a champion.
LeFebvre would be an excellent 3rd line winger for some teams, Meele a middle six for any team.

The Petes may trade Jonathan Melee if they get a good offer for him which includes a player and a draft pick but I am certain they will not trade Chase Lefebvre. The Petes are not going to trade all their veteran players for whatever they can get for them. It is not fire sale. Peterborough cannot trade a forward without acquiring another one as they only have 12 forwards on their roster. They could trade a defenceman for draft picks as they have eight.

 

[dirty12]

If the Beck deal ends up involving an ‘07, Sudbury and Kitchener are both solid options. To me, those are the two most likely options.

I find it interesting that when I bring up Beck’s lack of offensive production this season, he is defended because of his intangibles. I mention Villeneuve’s intangibles and they are ignored and the offensive stat line is highlighted. Petes fans can’t have it both ways. You can’t on one hand suggest Beck is elite and deserves an elite return in spite the lack of elite offence and then downgrade a prospect that is already showing many of the same attributes as Beck as a 17 year old. I get it. We differ on the valuation of Villeneuve. Not a big deal. But, at the same time, I stand by my assessment that many Petes fans are raising the bar for Beck so high that they will be disappointed at the end result trade.

I would like to see the reaction to Flint acquiring Beck & McCoy.