Per Friedman: Coyotes players told team moving to Utah starting next season (Mod warning post #50)

[Coffey]

Houston almost got an NHL team

View attachment 849915

Whew that was a close one.

 

[JKG33]

I haven't been following this whole thing.....but If I have something I want (or have)to sell and I know of someone who wants it...why would I sell it to a third party who I know will sell it to them anyway at a 30% markup? The whole thing just looks dumber and more f***ed up as the days go on based on reading here.

Is the NHL holding a gun to a head here? Someone have the readers digest version?

What you and a few others need to understand is the Coyotes aren't exactly a thing that Merulo owns. It's more like a lease or a membership to a club, and less like a tangible thing that can simply be sold to the highest bidder.

 

[joestevens29]

Whew that was a close one.

View attachment 849959

Lol I was talking about my S.O.S sign they gave at games earlier today in the players you have meet thread

 

[ItWasJustified]

Both Utah and AZ will have real trouble in the future in regards to climate change.
And i feel for the residents of both areas. This will be hard.

If you believe in climate change, the future will be hard for everyone, and hockey won't be part of that future.

 

[robertocarlos]

Arizona Coyotes were a failed real estate deal from the time they moved from Winnipeg. It will continue to be a failed RE deal if they win this auction. Meruelo should take his $700 million profit and thank his lucky stars. He really should have to pay back $50 million to Glendale and $50 million to Winnipeg. And he owes Bettman millions of dollars. He owes every team in the NHL money.

He has the NHL over a barrel but if he's smart the only ice he ever sees is in his drink.

 

[robertocarlos]

I haven't been following this whole thing.....but If I have something I want (or have)to sell and I know of someone who wants it...why would I sell it to a third party who I know will sell it to them anyway at a 30% markup? The whole thing just looks dumber and more f***ed up as the days go on based on reading here.

Is the NHL holding a gun to a head here? Someone have the readers digest version?

Meruelo has Bettman by the nuts. Meruelo might even get way more than a billion dollars. There won't be a pay-day for the other 31 owners.

 

[Edenjung]

If you believe in climate change, the future will be hard for everyone, and hockey won't be part of that future.

Believing implise that there is the option to not accept it and it will go away.
It doesn't matter if we believe in it or not. It doesn't change based on that.

And yes this will play a role in hockey. It already influences Sports in a huge way.
The IOC has trouble finding places for the winter olympics and its only getting worse in the future.

 

[Northernhawk]

It’s gonna be Arizona Coyotes moving to Salt Lake City, Utah

NHL Expansion to Houston, Atlanta, San Diego and…Phoenix!

 

[joelef]

What the next non traditional team will the Canadian media make into a boogeyman?

 

[Voight]

By NHL teams mismanagement.

They were smarter with Seattle which had the same rules as Vegas. GMs made bad deals with Vegas. Vegas also has made amazing deals afterwards.

There front office was not just gifted this.

Vegas since they entered the league have put on a masterclass of how to run a winning team. Many people, myself included said they'd be dogshit after the draft. But they proved us wrong and kept making moves. To say they were gifted a contender is such a laughable take.

Seattle had the same rules. But they sat on their hands, not making trades and making some questionable expansion picks.

Been trying to make this point. Vegas did the right thing and hired a veteran executive in McPhee. Seattle tried a relatively inexperienced executive and it showed.

 

[Voight]

Curious how little consideration is being given to the Yotes players. One day, you're surrounded by some of the best golf courses in the world, some of the world's best Mexican food, and lots of hot Arizona State University co-eds running around in shorty-shorts, and then the next day you're in a colder, windier city that is grossly underpopulated by hot chicks and in addition can sometimes be very, very weird.

I guess its a dream if you like winter sports other than hockey

 

[ItWasJustified]

The IOC has trouble finding places for the winter olympics and its only getting worse in the future.

They can hold the Winter Olympics in my part of Northern Sweden. We haven't have this cold or this long of a winter in over 30 years.

 

[Voight]

I genuinely couldn't care less about whether players are okay with moving to Salt Lake City or not. They're making at minimum $800k a year or so, they'll survive. Normal people get forcefully relocated all of the time while making a fraction of what NHLers make.

I feel bad for the Phoenix-based Coyotes employees who will be out of a job with the Coyotes moving and the fans losing their team. But the players? Go cry me a river.

Given the short time frame, Smith may offer all or most of them the same jobs in Utah, if they are willing to move there.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Except ... it wasn't. @tarheelhockey had the same thought I had when Bettman spoke at the ASG: lots of qualifiers, lots of hesitation, lots of searching for the right words in a response without tipping everyone off to what was happening, but it was clear as day if you've watched Gary Bettman talk over the years that he had nothing good to say about the Phoenix situation and he was trying to avoid saying something that put all the attention on Phoenix and away from the ASG.

Yeah, Bettman has been around so long and commented on so many controversies that hearing him talk about the Coyotes is like listening to your wife of 30 years talk about the health of your marriage. You’re hearing the things she’s saying, but you’re really listening to the things she’s not saying.

At the ASG Bettman gave the equivalent of “Whatever the future holds, I’m sure we will never stop loving each other.” Antennas up.

 

[Edenjung]

They can hold the Winter Olympics in my part of Northern Sweden. We haven't have this cold or this long of a winter in over 30 years.

You might live in one of the few locations that may be viable to host in the long run. But that also depends on the population and the IOCs tendency to make every buck they can get.

Winter Olympic Sites Are Melting Away because of Climate Crisis

As greenhouse gas emissions rise, more venues will face conditions that professional athletes consider unfair or unsafe

www.scientificamerican.com

https://www.accuweather.com/en/climate/world-may-have-only-4-reliable-locations-for-winter-olympics-by-2050/1139837

Funny enough the asian Winter Games in 2029 will be heldin saudi arabia.
No thats not a joke. It sadly is the truth.

2029 Asian Winter Games - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And If it were up to me we would just hold the winter olympics in europe/canada and Hokkaido and rotate between them.
Hockey and everything else can be in sweden and bobsled, louge, etc will be done in Germany when they are held in europe.

Enough OT for now. I will go to bed and get some sleep. Have a nice day everybody.

 

[rojac]

I haven't been following this whole thing.....but If I have something I want (or have)to sell and I know of someone who wants it...why would I sell it to a third party who I know will sell it to them anyway at a 30% markup? The whole thing just looks dumber and more f***ed up as the days go on based on reading here.

Is the NHL holding a gun to a head here? Someone have the readers digest version?

If Meruelo were to sell the Coyotes directly to Smith, Smith owns a hockey franchise in Arizona. The NHL then has to approve Smith purchasing the team and it moving to SLC. The NHL can then add a relocation fee as a condition of the move. And assuming Meruelo still wants to own an NHL team in Arizona, he would need go through the normal NHL expansion process. By brokering the deal through the NHL, the purchase and move can be pre-approved for Smith with a negotiated relocation fee. Also, the NHL can guarantee an expansion franchise for Muruelo (conditional on getting a rink).

 

[VivaLasVegas]

Meruelo has Bettman by the nuts. Meruelo might even get way more than a billion dollars. There won't be a pay-day for the other 31 owners.

Maybe, except the NHL originally only approved the use of Mullet for a few years until there was a new stadium, and the NHL could withhold its permission for further use of Mullet (or any other stadium anywhere) and simply schedule no future games for the Yotes. Whatever one thinks of Bettman, I doubt that the NHL's lawyers are stupid and they've probably got this wired like a boobytrap should an owner go off into the weeds. Certainly, the League as a whole would be hurt financially, but the rest of the owners could bear it while it would be a financial disaster for Meruelo.

As it is, the NHL seems to be smoothing the tracks for Meruelo to divest by offering him an expansion option should his stadium deal ever actually materialize.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Arizona Coyotes were a failed real estate deal from the time they moved from Winnipeg. It will continue to be a failed RE deal if they win this auction. Meruelo should take his $700 million profit and thank his lucky stars. He really should have to pay back $50 million to Glendale and $50 million to Winnipeg. And he owes Bettman millions of dollars. He owes every team in the NHL money.

He has the NHL over a barrel but if he's smart the only ice he ever sees is in his drink.

No, he doesn't have the NHL over a barrel. If he owes the NHL money - which, he might (I would put it at greater than 50/50 chance) but I'm not declaring it's a fact without proof of it - then the NHL has him over the barrel and if he doesn't do what the NHL asks, the league can revoke his charter (for failing to operate the franchise in a manner that keeps it solvent without the league's help - though it will have a more vague but legally applicable description) and leave him with nothing.

And, it would be within the league's right to do so, especially if it calls in its debt and Meruelo can't pony those funds up.

And, there wouldn't be a goddamn thing Meruelo could do about it because it's in the contractual language he signed off on when agreeing to buy the team.

And, if he owes the league money, the NHL isn't giving him hundreds of millions of dollars for him to pocket as profit to go along with whatever this alleged plan is.

 

[BB79]

O

First of all it was Scottsdales mayor who said that water has to come from phoenix.
Which is the plan.
And second of all SCL also has a huge water problem in the near future.
The lake is drying up. Projection is about 5-10 years till the lake is gone.
And not only is the missing water a problem, but also the dust and pollution that then can get picked up by winds and get into the city.
The town might be booming, but that will only speed up the process. Same goes for phoenix and the surrounding areas.

Both Utah and AZ will have real trouble in the future in regards to climate change.
And i feel for the residents of both areas. This will be hard.

As the Great Salt Lake Dries Up, Utah Faces an ‘Environmental Nuclear Bomb’ (Published 2022)

Climate change and rapid population growth are shrinking the lake, creating a bowl of toxic dust that could poison the air around Salt Lake City.

www.nytimes.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/01/06/great-salt-lake-utah-drying-up/

The Great Salt Lake is drying up. Can it be saved?

Utah’s Great Salt Lake is the largest salt lake in the Western Hemisphere. Since the 1980s, the lake has shrunk by two-thirds, and is projected to disappear entirely in the next five years. If it does, it will lead to massive environmental, economic and public health issues.

www.wbur.org

What is the Problem With the Great Salt Lake Drying up?

What is the problem with the Great Salt Lake drying up, and how will it impact the water supply that many in the Great Salt Lake region depend on?

greenly.earth

..or they could, you know, stop diverting water elsewhere to water lawns and grow alfalfa

"Today, as much as two-thirds of the potential river inflow never reaches the lake. Consequently, the lake is shrinking. However, it is not climate change, but human water use that’s cutting the Great Salt Lake’s lifeline"

Why is the Great Salt Lake shrinking? It’s not climate change

Strategic decisions must be made about Utah’s land and water

www.deseret.com

 

[Ted Hoffman]

If Meruelo were to sell the Coyotes directly to Smith, Smith owns a hockey franchise in Arizona. The NHL then has to approve Smith purchasing the team and it moving to SLC. The NHL can then add a relocation fee as a condition of the move. And assuming Meruelo still wants to own an NHL team in Arizona, he would need go through the normal NHL expansion process. By brokering the deal through the NHL, the purchase and move can be pre-approved for Smith with a negotiated relocation fee. Also, the NHL can guarantee an expansion franchise for Muruelo (conditional on getting a rink).

All of this makes sense down to the "guarantee an expansion franchise" part.

If Meruelo has already had issues re: paying bills, dealing with sponsors, etc. I also can't imagine Bettman wants the league bringing Meruelo back into the fold by handing him yet another franchise where he could (would) do all the same stuff again, potentially creating yet another headache that the league has to solve. I don't think but he'll have a new arena, everything will now be fine will cut it. This isn't the late 80s under John Zeigler where the Gund Brothers get to wreck a couple franchises and then get rewarded with yet another franchise they can run into the ground; if the BoG has had an issue with someone they're cutting the line at first opportunity and making sure he's not coming back in.

Meaning: I don't know why the league would get into the position where it's guaranteeing any current owner anything, to the exclusion of any other prospective owners, especially given events that have surrounded the franchise under Meruelo. Even if Meruelo wins the auction in June, there's a lot of things that have to happen to get to "... and has an arena for an NHL team to play in" which is going to be a requirement before the league hands out an expansion franchise. Any slip-up along the way could leave Meruelo holding a grant he can't exercise and the league can't revoke - or, can't revoke without waiting some period of time / paying some amount of money.

The league may want to eventually stick in Phoenix, but Bettman isn't opening the league up to that kind of uncertainty.

 

[bossram]

Just connecting some dots over the years:

2009ish - $73 million over 3 seasons: https://bleacherreport.com/articles...g-bucks-if-balsillie-buys-his-phoenix-coyotes

2009-2012 - NHL loses about $112 million operating the Coyotes: Report: NHL lost $113 million while owning Phoenix Coyotes

2015 - about $16.5 million, excluding one-time charges: Reports: New Coyotes ownership suffered losses of $16 million in first fiscal year (Updated)

2023 - at least 8 digits Coyotes’ Mullett Arena Bringing Hockey Buzz Despite Financial Haircut

And, none of that includes the reported $18 million Bally Sports owed the Coyotes, which the Coyotes will probably never see.

It's not really difficult to see a pattern of 8-digit losses per year. In a vastly smaller arena, with higher salary costs, continuing 8-digit losses is entirely feasible and we're just arguing whether the first digit is a 1, 2, or something higher.

Of course, if you want to ignore any (all) of that, feel free to do so. Or, better yet: offer any kind of evidence that the Coyotes are not losing money, much less losing money in the 8 figures. Then see if you can get people in the move the goddamn team out of Phoenix already camp to buy your story, cause they see the same stuff I am (and are exaggerating it from there).


1. Friedman, LeBrun, et. al. have never been wrong. Except ... all the times they've been wrong.
2. When LeBrun or anyone else has documents in hand with the terms of the sale and they line up with what you claim - especially that Meruelo is going to make a f***ing shitload of money on buying the team part, let everyone know. Until then, you're doing exactly what I said you're doing: speculating without a shred of evidence. And, you're disregarding key information so that you can continue to push a (misleading) narrative.
3. Details matter. Meruelo could "get $1 billion from selling the team" and still end up no better than breaking even on the entire transaction because he's got to pay debt or use some of that to plug losses he's incurred. Or, deal with other obligations on the books that none of us are aware of. Look [way] beyond the headlines.

Bottom line: I can at least point to numerous data points to show that the idea of the Coyotes losing $10+ million a year isn't far-fetched at all. If anything, a $10 million loss would be fantastic. You still have no proof at all Meruelo is getting $1 billion, much less clearing hundreds of millions of dollars out of this - but godammnit, you're going to go down swinging to avoid taking the L on this.

So how much did he lose in total? I've also literally never said they're not losing money. Your stream of consciousness is based on something I haven't said and don't believe. And yes, when the team sells for a billion, I will absolutely not take the L. I will take the W, because I'm completely correct on the trajectory of Meruelo's tenure. I hope you'll come back and admit that.

I'm not in the "move the team" camp. I don't care if they're in Arizona or not.

 

[CaptainUgly]

So with the relocation, how about changing the divisions set up. I think the NFL model is pretty good. Four divisions per conference, and then the playoffs could be changed to be more like the NFL, with the division winners and three wild card teams, and the first-place team getting a bye. What do you think?

 

[Golden_Jet]

What's crazy here is that people are believing that the NHL would accept a relocation fee of around 300 million when the most recent expansion fee was 650 and is now reported to be upwards of a billion dollars.

It’s $300 million relocations fee plus the cost of the team sale.
NHL gets relocation fee part.

 

[Transplanted Caper]

I imagine we will find out what happened behind the scenes that cause a sudden change in what the NHL wanted. At the all star game everything seemed alright. Curious to know what the was catalyst for this to explode

The PA and the other owners likely had had enough. Municipal development is a quagmire, and the "hey, maybe we'll have the first part of an answer in late June" likely became untenable. I also wonder how much they trust Meruelo. Their faith in his ability to put an auction into a win into action might have been tested, even if they have to play nice with him to rip a band-aid off now.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

So with the relocation, how about changing the divisions set up. I think the NFL model is pretty good. Four divisions per conference, and then the playoffs could be changed to be more like the NFL, with the division winners and three wild card teams, and the first-place team getting a bye. What do you think?

no.... because the last realignment and the addition of Seattle is why Arizona was shifted to the Central division