Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: We Hayes Dubas's offseason moves so far

[Empoleon8771]

Oh honey child, it would take a lot more than 29OA to consummate such a deal.

Keeping Crosby does nothing for the long term viability and competitiveness of this team. You're letting your sentimentality override common sense. This team is going nowhere with these dinosaurs, the last two seasons should have aptly shown you that.

What basis is there to suggest this? It's not an apples to apples comparison, but Patrick Kane was traded for only a 2nd round pick as a rental.

Crosby has a full NMC and a big cap hit. There is no such thing as getting "max value" for that. He picks his location that he goes to (likely Colorado) and you get whatever Colorado is willing to pay. You're not getting much more than a late 1st for Crosby in a trade.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Dubas is definitely running us like a big market Canadian team right now.

Too scared to do anything otherwise we will miss out on ticket sales without realizing this isn't a Canadian market and people will stop coming if we are not making the playoffs even with the core.

Yeah, like I get the pressure to make the playoffs, but even if we do make that 8th seed, we're not anywhere near being a contender unless we have JFK-magic-bullet-levels of luck.

I think it's too early to make that claim. We don't know how this team is going to operate once Crosby and Malkin retire. We know they won't want to tear it down while they're here, but I doubt that same mindset will exist once Crosby and Malkin retire.



You're not going to be nearly bad enough to be in the 1st overall talk unless you get insanely lucky with the draft lottery.

I don't think that time is that far away Emp. I guess we'll see if Crosby signs a long deal or not, but I don't think Sid and Malkin make it much more than 3 seasons here. Malkin might not even see the Olympics. But I expect FSG to try to build through the UFA market then, not try to tank, even though tanking would be the smarter decision. They just don't seem like they have the stomach for tanking, even for a potential future HHOF top 5 pick.

 

[Pancakes]

I don't understand how there is a single Penguins fan who wants Crosby to leave Pittsburgh. No matter what kind of wacky justification you give for it, it just makes me think "are you actually a Penguins fan?" to suggest that Crosby should leave.

I'd forgive him if he wanted to leave but I certainly don't want him to.

 

[HandshakeLine]

His wife being from Ottawa they probably don’t want to stray too far from there.

If I was from Ottawa, I would want to stray extremely far from there.

 

[Gurglesons]

Dubas couldn’t even get a 1st for Guentzel.

Now he’s getting one from Colorado who knows Sid is only going to go there?

Good one.

 

[SEALBound]

Yeah, which is why they brought in Quinn, I think. It's just insane that nobody even explored the idea of trading him despite the fact that he clearly doesn't mesh with Sullivan and all of a sudden, he's being treated like another core member.

I guess we don't know that they haven't technically but as I pointed out, it's a big undertaking that I'm not convinced even helps us. I do think when they brought him in, I do think they were under the impression that he would be a core member so it's not THAT shocking. Certainly #4/5 on that list depending on how they view Rust but well behind Sid, Geno, then Letang.

You're not going to be nearly bad enough to be in the 1st overall talk unless you get insanely lucky with the draft lottery.

Probably not but I think there's always going to be that aspect of "luck" when it comes to the draft and draft lottery but that's kinda my point. It's just a little bit easier to be lucky when you finish 27th OV than wherever we finish with Sid. Not advocating for this obviously, just pointing out that we have better odds of adding the significant talents needed to actually rebuild if we don't have Sid. The 1st from Colorado, whatever. You hope for a Robertson or Point but be prepared for a Sam Steel or Klim Kostin.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I'm not going to belabor the point too much, but I really think people are out to lunch if they say moving on from Crosby somehow expedites the Penguins rebuild. I know this team is extremely uninspiring, but they're still not a truly bottom of the barrel team even if you subtract Crosby off the roster. They'd be bad without a doubt, but I think they'd be more in "7th or 8th worst team in hockey" territory instead of "worst team in hockey" territory.

Any sort of deal you'd make with Crosby will involve the Penguins taking back cap as well, and I'd imagine they'd get halfway decent players with the amount of cap they'd be sending out. Let's use Colorado as an example and say the deal was Crosby for Colton, Girard and a 2025 1st (which seems like a realistic return for what Crosby would bring back). You're still getting 2 halfway decent players back, which will prevent your team from getting worse, and the late 1st you'd get isn't going to tangibly move the needle for their rebuild. They still won't be bad enough to bottom out.

Increasing their pick from 16th to 6th (which seems like a reasonable estimate) isn't enough for this team to truly "bottom out" and get the top end talent it needs from a rebuild.

You're basically trading Crosby for a return that doesn't tangibly impact the team in the long-run, while you're also not getting bad enough to truly bottom out and get the franchise pieces you need. At that point, what's the point of moving him?

Yup. The Penguins will never win a trade involving Sidney Crosby. They will never get the appropriate value for him, and it won't be enough to jumpstart a rebuild.

If Crosby wants to ask out or doesn't want to re-sign, that's his decision. But the Penguins should have no desire to move on from him and it sounds like this is all about to be moot, anyway.

I think some of the people who want to move on are treating this a bit like a video game, where you can swindle the AI into bad trades and accumulate a couple of top five picks for two or three years. Doesn't work that way in real life.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

You probably get Giroux return at best for Sid

 

[Ryder71]

What basis is there to suggest this? It's not an apples to apples comparison, but Patrick Kane was traded for only a 2nd round pick as a rental.

Crosby has a full NMC and a big cap hit. There is no such thing as getting "max value" for that. He picks his location that he goes to (likely Colorado) and you get whatever Colorado is willing to pay. You're not getting much more than a late 1st for Crosby in a trade.

Because he's an icon, an all time great who's still playing at an elite level. And IF we don't get a huge return we don't move him. It's that simple. COL or EDM would be instant favorites with Sid in toe, that requires a big return for PIT. For Crosby you pony up or he can sink with the ship here in PIT. No one is suggesting we just give him away. come now.

 

[molon labe]

Marner and Draisaitl are the only two players I see being remotely impactful and potentially available soon-ish. The rest of the players out there are just more likely to stay where they are.

Even those two might. It's too much of a bet to think you're going to build out from UFA WITHOUT pieces already in place here. I'm not saying the team couldn't compete - but based on the moves and non-moves made over the past couple seasons ....it just seems like it's too late now.

You flipping Eller/Graves/Jarry for Kadri? No? Then just tear the damn thing down.



We're all sitting here talking like names will continue to put butts in seats....behind Sullivan's system? Who wants to go spend 300 dollars to see the team put in 2 trash goals and Jarry give up 3 on a nightly basis? Idk.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I guess we don't know that they haven't technically but as I pointed out, it's a big undertaking that I'm not convinced even helps us. I do think when they brought him in, I do think they were under the impression that he would be a core member so it's not THAT shocking. Certainly #4/5 on that list depending on how they view Rust but well behind Sid, Geno, then Letang.

Yeah, but that's kind of what's crazy about it SEAL. It's not like EK came in and immediately gel'd with the team or made some huge memorable contribution. He's just friends with the core and is pretty successful in his own right.

I dunno. I guess I was thoroughly annoyed by Mario's clubhouse, and so it makes sense that I'm thoroughly annoyed by the core's version of the same.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I agree. I also don't particularly see any generational names on the horizon that are worth going full blown 'worst in the league for' - but historically drafting top 8 has pretty damn good results.

Difference in your Elias Pettersson's, Matthew Tkachuk, Mitch Marner's etc. I know there's plenty of cases of top 10 draft picks busting, and plenty of cases of late rounders being absolute steals - but the difference isn't necessarily something to scoff at.

The team is more likely to be successful drafting top 5-10 in the next 3-4 drafts than not. As an added bonus, logically, it's better to gradually slip than fall flat. A Bedard can turn your franchise around in a couple seasons. You can accumulate several top 10 picks THEN land Bedard (still) as those players are either not yet ready or not good enough to carry a team.

More than one way to skin the cat here - but certainly pushing that top 10 is better than falling later in the round. Top 7 especially *usually*

If you look at guys usually picked in that 6-8 range, it's really not guys you tend to build championship franchises with. It's hard for me to describe this, but the best case for guys you get in that range usually tend to be "supporting core pieces on good teams" or "core pieces on mid teams". You'll get a Letang or a Kessel type of guy in that range, but you're not getting a Crosby or Malkin. And are you realistically winning anything if your core is full of Letang and Kessel caliber guys? I don't think so.

The caliber of franchise guys you tend to get in those ranges are more like Horvat, Nylander, Werenski and Keller. Those are very clearly great core pieces, but are you winning any cups with that as your core? I personally don't think so.

 

[Gurglesons]

Dubas could barely get a return for Jake Guentzel and now we going to assume he's somehow going to pillage the Colorado Avalanche when Sid is only waiving for them?

Good one.

 

[The Old Master]

[looks down]

Can confirm.

it's not fat..... i just swallowed a basketball.

 

[IcedCapp]

You probably get Giroux return at best for Sid

im sure we'd get a 1st, but it would wind up being in the bottom-5 of the first round, so I'm really wondering why some people are so excited to move on.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'd forgive him if he wanted to leave but I certainly don't want him to.

Yeah same. I don't WANT to see him go anywhere but at this point I'm so full of spite towards this team that it would be a little satisfying, admittedly. Plus he'd actually have a shot at doing something and why is that such a bad thing?

This is probably a larger debate involving these weirdos who claim they "root for the logo" no matter what despite the team BEING the players and players like Crosby, Malkin and Letang being the flag-bearers for 20 of the best years in franchise history.

 

[HandshakeLine]

We're all sitting here talking like names will continue to put butts in seats....behind Sullivan's system? Who wants to go spend 300 dollars to see the team put in 2 trash goals and Jarry give up 3 on a nightly basis? Idk.

Yeah, I think this is kind of under-appreciated too. We don't have to be this boring. It's the team's choice to be this boring.

 

[Pancakes]

I'm not going to belabor the point too much, but I really think people are out to lunch if they say moving on from Crosby somehow expedites the Penguins rebuild.

To be honest after two years in a row of missing the playoffs with a healthy Sid and looking pretty bad while doing it I dunno how you could be this confident in the Pens not sucking ass even with Sid here.

Would it really surprise anyone if the Pens were the worst or second worst team in the Metro this year? Imo the only team we're clearly better than on paper is the Blue Jackets. You could make a case that the Caps/Flyers/Isles are all better. Devils/Canes/Rangers certainly are.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Yeah same. I don't WANT to see him go anywhere but at this point I'm so full of spite towards this team that it would be a little satisfying, admittedly. Plus he'd actually have a shot at doing something and why is that such a bad thing?

This is probably a larger debate involving these weirdos who claim they "root for the logo" no matter what despite the team BEING the players and players like Crosby, Malkin and Letang being the flag-bearers for 20 of the best years in franchise history.

I have a mix of both. On the one hand, I love the idea of Penguins legends who stay only here. On the other hand, if any of them leave, I no longer root for them. I don't want to root for ex-Pens, even if it's not their fault. It's just not how I roll.

 

[Ryder71]

Dubas couldn’t even get a 1st for Guentzel.

Now he’s getting one from Colorado who knows Sid is only going to go there?

Good one.

Yes, because Jake and Sid are on the same level. lol

And we got a hell of a lot more value than a measly 1st rounder from CAR. lol

 

[Tom Hanks]

Yeah, like I get the pressure to make the playoffs, but even if we do make that 8th seed, we're not anywhere near being a contender unless we have JFK-magic-bullet-levels of luck.

The business side of things just making Round 1 is worth a truckload of $$$.

They wouldn’t be budgeting to make playoffs anymore (if they ever did include it in their budgets) so it’d be lots of profit just from making playoffs.

 

[molon labe]

If you look at guys usually picked in that 6-8 range, it's really not guys you tend to build championship franchises with. It's hard for me to describe this, but the best case for guys you get in that range usually tend to be "supporting core pieces on good teams" or "core pieces on mid teams". You'll get a Letang or a Kessel type of guy in that range, but you're not getting a Crosby or Malkin. And are you realistically winning anything if your core is full of Letang and Kessel caliber guys? I don't think so.

The caliber of franchise guys you tend to get in those ranges are more like Horvat, Nylander, Werenski and Keller. Those are very clearly great core pieces, but are you winning any cups with that as your core? I personally don't think so.

I agree but that was sort of my point. Get 1-4 of those guys BEFORE your stud 1-3OA.

I'm not saying it's definitely going to turn around at that point, but the turnaround (usually) happens much, much quicker when you land an Auston Matthews. It would be better to land Matthews after already landing your Horvat/Nylander. Not before hand.

Barring health, Bedard for instance is going to start turning things around in Chicago and they're going to be forced into a situation of trading or spending because they didn't have assets pushing to be his wing.

Like I said though, more than 1 way to do it, for sure. Pittsburgh got lucky with a couple late round picks in Letang/Guentzel/Murray and GMJR trades. We didn't build inside out completely. I'm not sure the next time we should gamble on that. If I were to pick, today, it would be to try and draft a few times in top 10, then hope like hell you land one or two picks in the 1-4 range. Go from there.

 

[HandshakeLine]

The business side of things just making Round 1 is worth a truckload of $$$.

They wouldn’t be budgeting to make playoffs anymore (if they ever did include it in their budgets) so it’d be lots of profit just from making playoffs.

If that were so true, you'd have thunk FSG would have moved mountains to ensure we didn't miss the postseason by 1 point again. Especially because they could have fixed it with a few tweaks to the PP.

 

[Pancakes]

Yeah same. I don't WANT to see him go anywhere but at this point I'm so full of spite towards this team that it would be a little satisfying, admittedly. Plus he'd actually have a shot at doing something and why is that such a bad thing?

This is probably a larger debate involving these weirdos who claim they "root for the logo" no matter what despite the team BEING the players and players like Crosby, Malkin and Letang being the flag-bearers for 20 of the best years in franchise history.

Rooting for just the logo is such a dumb thing. I can't imagine being a sports fan and not also having a huge attachment to the players on the team.

I'm not from Pittsburgh. I grew up in Western Mass. Know why I'm a Pens fan? Because when I was a little boy and watching hockey on TV I saw this guy called Mario Lemieux. I gravitated to him and I've been with the team ever since. Through that time I've grown attached to a lot of the players we've had.

Don't get me wrong I love the city too. I've been many many times. It's a great place. I would have been devastated if the Pens ever moved from there.

But the players are just as tied into my fandom as the city and they always will be. It's totally bizarre to me when people claim no such attachments.

 

[Andy99]

I'm completely fine with Sid making whatever he wants, honestly. At this point it's completely pointless to fret about cap space to fit in some future piece to help compete that is never coming, anyway. But lets please not act like Sid has been in the poorhouse the last few years because of how his contract was constructed. He's made an absolute mint in endorsements etc. for many, many years including these last few.

But we need the cap space to re-sign Kevin Hayes to that expensive extension that Sullivan wants for him…