Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: We Hayes Dubas's offseason moves so far

[Empoleon8771]

To be honest after two years in a row of missing the playoffs with a healthy Sid and looking pretty bad while doing it I dunno how you could be this confident in the Pens not sucking ass even with Sid here.

Would it really surprise anyone if the Pens were the worst or second worst team in the Metro this year? Imo the only team we're clearly better than on paper is the Blue Jackets. You could make a case that the Caps/Flyers/Isles are all better. Devils/Canes/Rangers certainly are.

I think you need to look at the difference between what the Penguins have been in the last 2 years and what the truly "bad" teams in the NHL are.

The Penguins were a ~90 point team that ranked around 19th in the NHL in the last 2 years. Taking Crosby out probably only drops them to 25th, just because the difference between 19th and 29th is huge. In terms of points, the Penguins are as close to 4th best in the NHL as they are to 29th best in the NHL.

 

[The Old Master]

More than Crosby, it's actually EK that I'm confused as to why we're holding on to him. He just doesn't seem to fit here, and I while I know we supposedly brought Quinn in to coach him back to form, I don't have high hopes for that experiment. He's not part of the core, he's got value-- why aren't we training with retention?

i think ek is confused too

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Rooting for just the logo is such a dumb thing. I can't imagine being a sports fan and not also having a huge attachment to the players on the team.

I'm not from Pittsburgh. I grew up in Western Mass. Know why I'm a Pens fan? Because when I was a little boy and watching hockey on TV I saw this guy called Mario Lemieux. I gravitated to him and I've been with the team ever since. Through that time I've grown attached to a lot of the players we've had.

Don't get me wrong I love the city too. I've been many many times. It's a great place. I would have been devastated if the Pens ever moved from there.

But the players are just as tied into my fandom as the city and they always will be. It's totally bizarre to me when people claim no such attachments.

Yeah same. Not even from Pittsburgh. It was Mario and Jagr that got me into hockey and the team.

You know... the players?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

More than Crosby, it's actually EK that I'm confused as to why we're holding on to him. He just doesn't seem to fit here, and I while I know we supposedly brought Quinn in to coach him back to form, I don't have high hopes for that experiment. He's not part of the core, he's got value-- why aren't we training with retention?

Might recoup some value if Karlsson has a bounceback year - retaining for the remainder of his deal AND signalling to the core that there's no hope for the playoffs probably isn't an attractive proposition.

 

[SEALBound]

im sure we'd get a 1st, but it would wind up being in the bottom-5 of the first round, so I'm really wondering why some people are so excited to move on.

It's because when we draft low we get: Mario Lemieux. Then Jagr. Then MAF, then Malkin, then Sid, then Staal.

This fanbase has never really gone through things like Hall, RNH, then Yakupov. Or a Derek Stepan or Diagle or a middling guy like Lafreniere or Hischier (meaning guys who are good but not franchise altering gets).

I think everyone is assuming "Oh, we tank, we get 1ov, we draft another Sid, we start a 15 year window of cup contention all over again" which is most certainly not going to be the case in all likelihood. People here just have absolutely warped views of what high picks should be doing for the organization.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

You know in the situation we trade Crosby. We wouldn't be only trading Crosby right?

It would be a full on fire sale of desirable players.

Crosby gone
Rust gone
Petts gone
EK gone
Malkin gone
Letang gone

Eller for whatever

I like watching the core play together but we missed the playoffs twice and our roster is nor getting younger.

 

[Tom Hanks]

If that were so true, you'd have thunk FSG would have moved mountains to ensure we didn't miss the postseason by 1 point again. Especially because they could have fixed it with a few tweaks to the PP.

It’s kind of a balancing act now. Can’t do too much for the right now because of where we are heading.

Also doesn’t mean mistakes weren’t made and they thought they could squeeze in with what they had.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You know in the situation we trade Crosby. We wouldn't be only trading Crosby right?

It would be a full on fire sale of desirable players.

Crosby gone
Rust gone
Petts gone
EK gone
Malkin gone
Letang gone

Eller for whatever

I like watching the core play together but we missed the playoffs twice and our roster is nor getting younger.

You literally wouldn't be able to do that with the amount of NMCs and salary retention you'd have to do to make that possible.

 

[Pancakes]

I think you need to look at the difference between what the Penguins have been in the last 2 years and what the truly "bad" teams in the NHL are.

The Penguins were a ~90 point team that ranked around 19th in the NHL in the last 2 years. Taking Crosby out probably only drops them to 25th, just because the difference between 19th and 29th is huge. In terms of points, the Penguins are as close to 4th best in the NHL as they are to 29th best in the NHL.

True but we have had pretty good injury luck the past couple of seasons, and we've been lucky enough that Sid has maintained an almost unprecedented level of play into his late 30s.

At some point both of those things will not be true any more, and it could get ugly when that happens.

The other thing for me is some of these also rans like Chicago, San Jose, Columbus, Philly, Montreal, etc will eventually take the next step with their young cores. We have almost nowhere to go but down, whereas a lot of teams have nowhere to go but up.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Pens have 4th best odds at winning division. Just saying.

 

[Empoleon8771]

True but we have had pretty good injury luck the past couple of seasons, and we've been lucky enough that Sid has maintained an almost unprecedented level of play into his late 30s.

At some point both of those things will not be true any more, and it could get ugly when that happens.

The other thing for me is some of these also rans like Chicago, San Jose, Columbus, Philly, Montreal, etc will eventually take the next step with their young cores. We have almost nowhere to go but down, whereas a lot of teams have nowhere to go but up.

The Penguins have historically out-performed expectations for their teams when Crosby and Malkin have gotten hurt in the past, so I feel like that expectation would also be applicable for the team going forward.

They've never had top young guys in the system but have regularly managed to put up strong seasons with Crosby and Malkin missing a ton of games.

 

[Ryder71]

You know in the situation we trade Crosby. We wouldn't be only trading Crosby right?

It would be a full on fire sale of desirable players.

Crosby gone
Rust gone
Petts gone
EK gone
Malkin gone
Letang gone

Eller for whatever

I like watching the core play together but we missed the playoffs twice and our roster is nor getting younger.

You get it, you understand that this core is toast. Why keep guys who missed the playoffs the last two years and are older. The ship is going down. It'd just be nice to get something for our trouble.

Pens have 4th best odds at winning division. Just saying.

 

[The Old Master]

You literally wouldn't be able to do that with the amount of NMCs and salary retention you'd have to do to make that possible.

if sid goes who would want to stay? they will all wave. imo

 

[Tom Hanks]

Pens have 4th best odds at winning division. Just saying.

 

[BusinessGoose]

Yeah same. Not even from Pittsburgh. It was Mario and Jagr that got me into hockey and the team.

You know... the players?

I liked the uniform colors too

Pens have 4th best odds at winning division. Just saying.

If we still had four team divisions?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Also something I just realized when looking at Capfriendly: Letang's NMC turns into a 10 team NTC after July 1st 2026. I didn't realize that he didn't maintain a full NMC over the entirety of the deal.

I am skeptical you'd get much value by trading a 39/40 year old Letang, but I think trading Letang down the line is more possible than I was initially assuming it to be.

if sid goes who would want to stay? they will all wave. imo

Even if we want to pretend that's true, look at the money they're making. Who can afford to take on the amount of money these guys make?

People here act like this is NHL 24 and trades are easy to make.

 

[molon labe]

Pens have 4th best odds at winning division. Just saying.

"Everything in life is 50/50. It will either happen, or it won't happen."

~ Teal'c

 

[Ryder71]

True but we have had pretty good injury luck the past couple of seasons, and we've been lucky enough that Sid has maintained an almost unprecedented level of play into his late 30s.

At some point both of those things will not be true any more, and it could get ugly when that happens.

The other thing for me is some of these also rans like Chicago, San Jose, Columbus, Philly, Montreal, etc will eventually take the next step with their young cores. We have almost nowhere to go but down, whereas a lot of teams have nowhere to go but up.

It will get Ugly. Some here are in deep denial.

Make no mistake, our descent has begun. With or without Sid.

He won't see the post season here for at least the next three years.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

To be honest after two years in a row of missing the playoffs with a healthy Sid and looking pretty bad while doing it I dunno how you could be this confident in the Pens not sucking ass even with Sid here.

Would it really surprise anyone if the Pens were the worst or second worst team in the Metro this year? Imo the only team we're clearly better than on paper is the Blue Jackets. You could make a case that the Caps/Flyers/Isles are all better. Devils/Canes/Rangers certainly are.

This team's core players have been relatively healthy the past two years, too. The injuries have been to the Guentzels/Rusts and beyond. What happens if Sid takes a puck to the foot and is out for 6 weeks? Or if Letang AND Karlsson are out like Letang and Petry were at one point a couple years ago?

Nothing would surprise me. I could see things come together and this team make the playoffs and be a threat to at least win a round. Or they could fall apart and be one of the worst teams in the league.

 

[Pancakes]

The Penguins have historically out-performed expectations for their teams when Crosby and Malkin have gotten hurt in the past, so I feel like that expectation would also be applicable for the team going forward.

They've never had top young guys in the system but have regularly managed to put up strong seasons with Crosby and Malkin missing a ton of games.

The most recent example we have of that was 2021-22 in which Jake Guentzel played 76 games and put up 84 points.

I dunno, I don't see it happening with this team if Sid goes down. We'll see though.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It will get Ugly. Some here are in deep denial.

Make no mistake, our descent has begun. With or without Sid.

He won't see the post season here for at least the next three years.

Literally no one in here is in denial about the state of the Penguins. We just realize that trading Crosby is not going to tangibly improve or expedite the rebuild, so we all think trading Crosby is a stupid idea.

 

[Turin]

Honestly the most healthy seasons for the Pens have been the worst. I think Sully is way more in his element coaching guys like Rodrigues and Blueger than he is getting creative when he has the whole core available to him, stupid as it is. HBK would have never happened if Malkin wasn’t hurt. Guentzel-Malkin-Rust was the best line we’ve seen in a long while. Etc.

So if anything the Pens need to get injured again more and then they might make it again lol

 

[KrisLetAngry]

You literally wouldn't be able to do that with the amount of NMCs and salary retention you'd have to do to make that possible.

1 salary retention spot left this year.

Get 2 back the year after.

Trade to teams to eat % and take a slightly less return

Let's get creative.

You get it, you understand that this core is toast. Why keep guys who missed the playoffs the last two years and are older. The ship is going down. It'd just be nice to get something for our trouble.

I was holding out bit Kevin Hayes for a 2nd was the writing on the wall.

Again we won't tear it down.
FSG wants to show there prize ponies to the fans.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

You literally wouldn't be able to do that with the amount of NMCs and salary retention you'd have to do to make that possible.

Certainly not this year, that's for sure.

The only way to trade all of those guys would be to do it in chunks. You'd have to deal Crosby, Eller, and Pettersson this year. You'd have to wait until next summer to trade Rust, when his NMC expires. And you'd likely have to retain something on Letang, Malkin, and Karlsson. Definitely on the latter two. Probably a small percentage on Letang, just because of his medical history. And they only have one retention spot left right now.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The most recent example we have of that was 2021-22 in which Jake Guentzel played 76 games and put up 84 points.

I dunno, I don't see it happening with this team if Sid goes down. We'll see though.

That year also had Evan Rodrigues coming out of nowhere and performing at legitimate top-6 levels, also while Carter was great in the first half of that year. No one expected that to happen until it actually happened.

I wouldn't expect them to bottom out until they actually do bottom out. Until then, they're just painfully mediocre in my eyes.

1 salary retention spot left this year.

Get 2 back the year after.

Trade to teams to eat % and take a slightly less return

Let's get creative.


I was holding out bit Kevin Hayes for a 2nd was the writing on the wall.

Again we won't tear it down.
FSG wants to show there prize ponies to the fans.

So you'd take a worse return now just to trade a player now, rather than waiting a year or two when they'd be in a more advantageous position to trade?