Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: We Hayes Dubas's offseason moves so far

[CheckingLineCenter]

This is such a lame discussion.

 

[Ryder71]

Let's look at the Ray Bourque trade instead then:

"The 39-year-old defenseman was traded along with forward Dave Andreychuk for forward Brian Rolston, defenseman Martin Grenier, center Sami Pahlsson and Boston’s choice of a first-round pick in either 2000 or 2001."

Rolston was a good young player in the middle of a horrid year with the Avs and Grenier was a recent 2nd rounder, but this again is not a "rebuild altering" return either.

The return you're looking at with Crosby is at best something like Crosby at 50% for Colton, Ritchie (27th overall pick in 2023) and Colorado's 2025 1st. So 2 late 1sts and some cap coming back. That's not going to tangibly impact the rebuild.

Whatever haul we would garner would be ADDED to the picks we already have. So, in such a scenario we could have multiple 1sts or potentially 5 1st rd picks over a three year span. That'd be a nice basis to help jump start a rebuild. In addition to the Yagers, Iylins and Koivunens of the world.

So it's not just the picks/prospects from that alone, it's the addition to what we already have. And that can add a lot of flexibility to move up or garner more picks if need be.

 

[IcedCapp]

i referenced this in the main board thread, but this isn't the NBA. If it were, trading Sid for 4 FRPs and multiple swaps 5 years down the line makes it something you consider. But in the NHL where you don't have those kinds of deals with tons of back-loaded futures, it just doesn't make as much sense to move a Sidney Crosby, especially when you'd probably have to retain and take back salary AND you still have EK, KL, and EM on the roster either 1) preventing you from fully tanking or 2) requiring you to take on more salary/retention (which we can't do) to move their contracts.

This whole thing isn't as simple as some are acting

 

[Empoleon8771]

Whatever haul we would garner would be ADDED to the picks we already have. So, in such a scenario we could have multiple 1sts or potentially 5 1st rd picks over a three year span. That'd be a nice basis to help jump start a rebuild. In addition to the Yagers and Koivunens of the world.

So it's just the picks/prospects from that alone, it's the addition to what we alrady have. And that can add a lot of flexibility to move up or add more picks if need be.

And the 1sts they'd be getting in that trade are the kind of 1sts that give you Anthony Beauvillier, not 1sts that actually give you franchise pieces.

Trading Crosby so you can have an Anthony Beauvillier player in 5 years seems like a completely worthless thing to do.

 

[deakka]

And the 1sts they'd be getting in that trade are the kind of 1sts that give you Anthony Beauvillier, not 1sts that actually give you franchise pieces.

Trading Crosby so you can have an Anthony Beauvillier player in 5 years seems like a completely worthless thing to do.

Beauvillier is pretty high end for a late 1st. It's a real possibility the pick doesn't even make it to the NHL

 

[Empoleon8771]

Beauvillier is pretty high end for a late 1st. It's a real possibility the pick doesn't even make it to the NHL

Yeah more realistically it just gives them another Sam Poulin.

Like what IC posted above, it would be one thing if trading Crosby could give them a high impact player that would actually be a new franchise guy for them. But that's simply not going to happen unless the Penguins get insanely lucky with the pick they make. The NHL doesn't work like that, you're not getting a 20 year old Elias Pettersson for a 37 year old Crosby.

Both Crosby and Malkin are worth far more to the team with keeping them and letting them retire as Penguins than what they'd realistically bring back in a trade.

 

[Ryder71]

Trading Crosby so you can have an Anthony Beauvillier player in 5 years seems like a completely worthless thing to do.

Not necessarily. It depends on how well you draft. If you're gonna assert that I can suggest that guys like Bergeron and Jake weren't even 1st rounders. 2hd and 3rd rounders I believe. But if you keep Sid, you're not going anywhere regardless. So not getting anything in the interim seems stupid. We're just gonna have a slow drain downward.

I'd rather accrue as many high picks as possible. At least the more picks you have in that regard the better chance you'll hit on a few.

 

[The Old Master]

Beauvillier is pretty high end for a late 1st. It's a real possibility the pick doesn't even make it to the NHL

if you are not going to tank for a very high pick, you need to have the chips to trade for one.

 

[PensFutures]

This team is so moronic it probably WANTED Kevin Hayes and thought they were absolutely robbing St. Louis. I can just imagine lil Kyle and Mikey high fiving each other

I am starting to wonder if this is true. STL sends us a 2nd and Hayes (2 years $3.175) and then immediately recoups a 2nd and 3rd for taking Faksa (1 year $3.2) and Mattheu Joseph (2 years $2.9)
Chicago also got a 2nd for taking Mikheyev (2 years 4.03).

Let's look at the Ray Bourque trade instead then:

The return you're looking at with Crosby is at best something like Crosby at 50% for Colton, Ritchie (27th overall pick in 2023) and Colorado's 2025 1st. So 2 late 1sts and some cap coming back. That's not going to tangibly impact the rebuild.

Lets say this happens, without Sid our pick would be what, around 7th OV? Colorado with Crosby is most likely between 27 and 32. I think trying to use that pick to move into the top 5 or trade for a young player with upside is better use than hoping someone late in the 1st can be an impact player. Is FSG more worried about 3 lottery tickets or keeping the ticket sales at 97% for 3 more years?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Lets say this happens, without Sid our pick would be what, around 7th OV? Colorado with Crosby is most likely between 27 and 32. I think trying to use that pick to move into the top 5 or trade for a young player with upside is better use than hoping someone late in the 1st can be an impact player. Is FSG more worried about 3 lottery tickets or keeping the ticket sales at 97% for 3 more years?

At least based on the 2024 draft, it seems like the cost to move up at the top of the draft was absolutely insane:

MSN

www.msn.com

The framework of the potential deal was as follows: the Flyers offered the 12th overall pick, a roster player, and a 2025 first-round pick to the Blue Jackets in exchange for the fourth overall pick. The Blue Jackets rejected the offer. Of course, there are detail that could influence how we evaluate such an offer, including the name of the roster player, and whether the 2025 first-round pick was protected or not.

I'm not sure #7 and #30 moves you up as much as you'd think it would. I think you can only move to the top-5 in that situation if the top-5 probably isn't good enough for you to justify doing it.

 

[PensFutures]

At least based on the 2024 draft, it seems like the cost to move up at the top of the draft was absolutely insane:

MSN

www.msn.com

I'm not sure #7 and #30 moves you up as much as you'd think it would.

You're probably right, so maybe there's a Middelstadt out there or a team like WPG having a Rutger issue.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1810343884360122500

relevant

Won't somebody PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!

 

[Tom Hanks]

Won't somebody PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!

 

[Ryder71]

Bourque on MM giving props to Dubas on this offseason, good job my man!

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Shifting gears....

Jason Mackey of the Post Gazette, who covered the Pens for a while, sat down for a one-on-one interview with Sullivan over the weekend.

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/jason-mackey/2024/07/08/nhl-offseason-stanley-cup-playoffs-kyle-dubas-development-team-speed-fsg/stories/202407060076

Mackey included some of his own observations and thoughts in the column, including his thoughts about Sullivan. You can read those on your own.

I don't think there is anything too revelatory, and actions will speak much louder than words, but here are a few notable comments from everyone's favorite coach.

Sullivan was aware of the speculation that he could leave Pittsburgh for New Jersey. Ditto for there being a possible issue when it comes to his relationship with Dubas. At the same time, Sullivan wasted no time pouring water on both ideas.

“I was aware of some of the speculation. What I can say to you is, don’t believe everything you read. I know where Kyle and I sat. We’ve developed a great relationship. It’s built on transparency and trust.”

Part of our conversation revolved around what it will take for the Penguins — with the oldest average age in the NHL on opening night last season at 30.6 years — to play a faster game. Sullivan believes they can, but it’s more than the speed at which their skates move.

“I’ve always been a believer that, when you have a combination of veteran guys with a certain amount of youth, it’s a great dynamic that takes place in the dressing room,” Sullivan said. “If we can get a little bit younger and add some youth to our lineup, usually with that comes an element of physical foot speed. But there are different types of speed.”

While the outside world was speculating whether Sullivan's time with the Penguins had finished, he was busy meeting with Dubas to go over what went right, what went wrong, best practices around the league and what may need to change for the Penguins in 2024-25.

One of the items they landed on, and eventually sought to improve, was development.

In other words, while wanting to skew younger, Dubas and Sullivan knew they’d have to do a better job developing players and essentially formalize the entire process.

"We’ve spent a lot of time on that and what that might look like," Sullivan said. “How we can build a development philosophy throughout our whole organization that gives us an opportunity to speak a common language to make our players better.

"That’s something that we’re going through right now. It’s been a great process. Kyle’s a guy who values that, as do I."

The last narrative Sullivan pushed back against was in goal, where he rode Alex Nedeljkovic late in the season and seemingly soured on Tristan Jarry. That’s not true, the coach insisted. In one of his lines that I’ve heard no fewer than a thousand times, he went and stuck with Ned because Sullivan thought he gave the Penguins the best chance to win.

Nothing more, nothing less.

“Sometimes I think you guys give me too much credit when it comes to some of these theories on how we make decisions,” Sullivan said, smiling as we went back and forth on the topic.

“Kyle and I went through a process together at the end of the year in evaluating our group and where we’re at and where we potentially want to go,” Sullivan said. “We’ve been very much on the same page.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Shifting gears....

Jason Mackey of the Post Gazette, who covered the Pens for a while, sat down for a one-on-one interview with Sullivan over the weekend.

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/jason-mackey/2024/07/08/nhl-offseason-stanley-cup-playoffs-kyle-dubas-development-team-speed-fsg/stories/202407060076

Mackey included some of his own observations and thoughts in the column, including his thoughts about Sullivan. You can read those on your own.

I don't think there is anything too revelatory, and actions will speak much louder than words, but here are a few notable comments from everyone's favorite coach.

A politician at every step of the way. Which is to be expected. You aren't gaining any glimmer of truth from any coach or GM with these interviews.

The next time you see a coach or GM (outside of Torts) slamming anyone in the organization will be the first. Yawn....welcome to the doldrums of July/August.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Shifting gears....

Jason Mackey of the Post Gazette, who covered the Pens for a while, sat down for a one-on-one interview with Sullivan over the weekend.

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/jason-mackey/2024/07/08/nhl-offseason-stanley-cup-playoffs-kyle-dubas-development-team-speed-fsg/stories/202407060076

Mackey included some of his own observations and thoughts in the column, including his thoughts about Sullivan. You can read those on your own.

I don't think there is anything too revelatory, and actions will speak much louder than words, but here are a few notable comments from everyone's favorite coach.

Thank you for the post.

So they have had no development plans in place? Is that what I'm reading?

Edit: Also no mention of the power play, overtime, or shootouts in that article. Had any of those things been even marginally better, they would have been in the playoffs.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Thank you for the post.

So they have had no development plans in place? Is that what I'm reading?

Edit: Also no mention of the power play, overtime, or shootouts in that article. Had any of those things been even marginally better, they would have been in the playoffs.

Years ago, they talked about utilizing the same system in WBS and Pittsburgh to ensure players didn't have to learn something new upon being called up.

But I think other areas in development were lacking late in the Rutherford years and in the Hextall years. Rutherford really slimmed down the front office and Hextall didn't do a ton to expand it. Dubas has hired a lot of people. Whether they'll be good or not is to be determined, but his front office is definitely larger.

And, yeah, I was hoping for more on Reirden, Quinn, and the power play.

 

[HandshakeLine]

It is absolutely wild that there is no plan to improve the power play.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

It is absolutely wild that there is no plan to improve the power play.

Just keep at it. I'm sure the bad bounces will go their way -this- year.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It is absolutely wild that there is no plan to improve the power play.

Whadda ya mean? There's a plan.

1. Hire Sullivan's buddy to run the show
2. Blame Evgeni Malkin when the bed becomes shitted
3. ???
4. Profit (lets hope it's second round picks!)

 

[HandshakeLine]

Please make sure the picks are post dated to 2027 at the earliest, thank you.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

NHL always lagging behind in all aspects. They're over there trading 2031 2nd rounders in the NBA. smh

 

[Gurglesons]

God, I hate reading Mike Sullivan talk because he comes off smart enough that you think maybe he gets it but then you see him play Jansen Harkins for 40 games.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Not that I don't appreciate it being posted but I honestly didn't get too much from that. Just a bunch of empty words. I DO think it's kind of funny how many times dude has to reiterate how unbelievably on the same page he and the GM are though. We get it buddy... it's not your fault!