Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: We Hayes Dubas's offseason moves so far

[Ugene Magic]

Yeah it wasn’t the Karlsson trade it was other/lack of other roster moves. We should have made playoffs last year but didn’t.

Obviously coaching is part of it but the roster just didn’t have great depth which is a must have these days.

It was dedicating 10.0 to a single individual who'll never live up to that cap hit this late into his career on a true contender. He's on a team where the puck is distributed and focused through multiple stars.

 

[Pancakes]

Honestly, I'm more inclined to agree with Gurgs' take regarding the Karlsson trade. At the time, I was all for the trade and saw no downsides in it. And even now, I don't think there is a ton of downside because I bet they get a 1st back for Karlsson in the future. But I think this team showed last year that it's no longer a team you spend a 1st round pick to make better.

I don't mind the trade at this point because I think you get a 1st back for Karlsson in the future. But I think there's an extremely easy argument to make that they were better off not doing that deal and just eating the remaining years/money on Petry, Rutta and Granlund.

They were absolutely better off to not make the trade. They would have been worse last year without him and got an even higher pick.

That's a very revisionist way of looking at it though because I don't think many people objected to the move at the time. Who knew that the powerplay would be even worse with him and that even adding a player like that the team still couldn't make the playoffs? I'd have to go back and read the takes to be sure but I doubt even Gurgs was that pessimistic at the time.

The team may be able to recoup that first round pick in the next few years if and when they decide to move EK again but even if they do that it's not going to be as high as the first rounder they moved to San Jose, so hard to see the Pens coming ahead there unless they get lucky.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

It was dedicating 10.0 to a single individual who'll never live up to that cap hit this late into his career on a true contender. He's on a team where the puck is distributed and focused through multiple stars.

10M on EK or 10M on Petry, Rutta, Granlund.

I know what I pick. Even including the 1st.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Considering our lack of depth and are core aging out why should we have made the playoffs last year?

We missed by the playoffs by 3 points with bad depth, a 30th placed power play & below average goaltending.

We should have made the playoffs and Dubas could have done a much better job to rectify that. It wasn’t an impossible task or anything. Crosby still had one of his best seasons.

 

[chethejet]

Petry and Grunland had more in salary than Karlsson for 2 years. Karlsson will return assets when he is moved. that is key here. Dubas got a d man who is valued and will hopefully be moved after this year with no real outlay for 2 years.

 

[Empoleon8771]

They were absolutely better off to not make the trade. They would have been worse last year without him and got an even higher pick.

That's a very revisionist way of looking at it though because I don't think many people objected to the move at the time. Who knew that the powerplay would be even worse with him and that even adding a player like that the team still couldn't make the playoffs? I'd have to go back and read the takes to be sure but I doubt even Gurgs was that pessimistic at the time.

The team may be able to recoup that first round pick in the next few years if and when they decide to move EK again but even if they do that it's not going to be as high as the first rounder they moved to San Jose, so hard to see the Pens coming ahead there unless they get lucky.

Yeah I think the difference is that saying "I wouldn't have done the trade in hindsight" is valid, but saying "Dubas is an idiot for making the trade" is ridiculous. It was a no brainer at the time to get out of their cap dumps and only pay a 1st to get Karlsson, but at this point, I think there's a very easy argument to make that this team wasn't in a position to be trading a 1st for anyone.

It's no different than saying "in hindsight, picking Murray over Fleury was a mistake". Like they still made the "correct" decision, it just didn't pan out.

 

[Pancakes]

Petry and Grunland had more in salary than Karlsson for 2 years. Karlsson will return assets when he is moved. that is key here. Dubas got a d man who is valued and will hopefully be moved after this year with no real outlay for 2 years.

Konsta Helenius is pretty highly regarded if I'm not mistaken. The Pens may rue losing their pick.

And SJ actually used it to move up to #11 which the Pens could have also done had they kept the pick.

 

[Turin]

Let’s see what the experts say about that

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Pixies must have heard somebody be critical of Dubas on a podcast he liked so he changed his mind. Gotta trust that Toronto Media.

 

[Ryder71]

We missed by the playoffs by 3 points with bad depth, a 30th placed power play & below average goaltending.

We should have made the playoffs and Dubas could have done a much better job to rectify that. It wasn’t an impossible task or anything. Crosby still had one of his best seasons.

Nah, TBH we were on a pretty big roll at the end of the season. Before that we were in the bottom 10 in the league. I think that false push we made distorted how hopelessly overmatched we were.

We made it look better than in all actuality how we were the majority of the season. And once we briefly regained a playoff position we soiled the bed yet again. That's not what a playoff caliber team does.

 

[66-30-33]

He's just fortifying his power here. We're already getting a good number of prospects from Europe, you're likely to see an uptick in that now.

Fine by me, the more prospects the better. Should always be this way, even when you're competitive for a cup. Build your team through the draft, etc. Plug and play like we did with Sheary and others back in 2016.

 

[SEALBound]

Honestly, I'm more inclined to agree with Gurgs' take regarding the Karlsson trade. At the time, I was all for the trade and saw no downsides in it. And even now, I don't think there is a ton of downside because I bet they get a 1st back for Karlsson in the future. But I think this team showed last year that it's no longer a team you spend a 1st round pick to make better.

I don't mind the trade at this point because I think you get a 1st back for Karlsson in the future. But I think there's an extremely easy argument to make that they were better off not doing that deal and just eating the remaining years/money on Petry, Rutta and Granlund.

The Karlsson trade really was a "four quarters for a dollar trade". We got rid of a lot of junk at a cost and brought back someone we thought would help more than those we traded away. I think in a nutshell, we can all say that we thought that would be the case. How well it ended up working is still up for debate. Karlsson was okay. Not bad, not great. Just okay. He has another three seasons to change things around and be an impact player. Petry wasn't going to help us. Granlund most certainly was not going to help us. Rutta, whatever. I don't think we would have been any better or worse off.

At the time, I get why Dubas wanted to make that move. Hindsight is a great thing as it's always 20/20 and while it's hard not to use it to judge a trade down the road, we really have to judge it at the time.

Brassard trade - great trade at the time. In hindsight, not so much.
Gudbranson trade - bad at the time, bad in hindsight.
Granlund - bad at the time, bad in hindsight.
Pettersson - meh at the time, great in hindsight.
Marino - meh at the time, great in hindsight.
Hornqvist - bad the time, good in hindsight.

We can alter how we feel about the trades down the road, sure, but that doesn't mean I'm going to knock a GM for not having a crystal ball. If they did, you wouldn't see the Matheson and Marino trades that necessitated having to trade away Petry, Rutta, and Granlund. If we want to be mad about it, let's start at the root of it all.

 

[Ryder71]

Fine by me, the more prospects the better. Should always be this way, even when you're competitive for a cup. Build your team through the draft, etc. Plug and play like we did with Sheary and others back in 2016.

The most important thing over the few years is to hit on and develop our 1st round picks. This is paramount. If you can get a gem in rd's 2-7 great, I'm sure a few of those guys will in the mix. Already liking our 2 2hd rounders this year, Iylin looks promising. So, there's reason for cautious optimism.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Nah, TBH we were on a pretty big roll at the end of the season. Before that we were in the bottom 10 in the league. I think that false push we made distorted how hopelessly overmatched we were.

We made it look better than in all actuality how we were the majority of the season. And once we briefly regained a playoff position we soiled the bed yet again. That's not what a playoff caliber team does.

And my point was Dubas should have done a better job because we just missed so with better GMing we should have made the playoffs.

Overall offensively our analytics were above average, defense average & goaltending was below average.

 

[66-30-33]

The most important thing over the few years is to hit on and develop our 1st round picks. This is paramount. If you can get a gem in rd's 2-7 great, I'm sure a few of those guys will in the mix. Already liking our 2 2hd rounders this year, Iylin looks promising. So, there's reason for cautious optimism.

TBH, I have not even paid attention to those threads. But I see at prospect camp sheets showing the players, we got some guys that have a ton of points from their league. I think I saw some similar to Yagers stats? I dunno how many scouts we have but we should get lots more for more eyes on talent.

 

[Ryder71]

And my point was Dubas should have done a better job because we just missed so with better GMing we should have made the playoffs.

Overall offensively our analytics were above average, defense average & goaltending was below average.

Analytics don't tell the whole story. And again, it was an epic push and we still fell flat on our face. Honestly we in reality should have been a good 5-8 points lower in the standings.

Not sure you can blame the GM for a piss poor PP, to me that's on the core. They had the personnel, they just didn't deliver.

 

[Ryder71]

IF our 5vs5 was satisfactory and the goaltending was good, then it comes down to the core making or breaking this team on their PP. And they blew it.

 

[Ugene Magic]

10M on EK or 10M on Petry, Rutta, Granlund.

I know what I pick. Even including the 1st.

You extended the bleeding an extra couple years. They could have bought their way out of Petry's contract and survived the Granlund/Rutta deals.

It was also more than the 1st, their 2nd went to Montreal and instead of getting Karlsson the Pens could have taken Hoffman in return who they would have already shed his contract.

In reality had Matheson and Marino haven't been traded they wouldn't be in any of this predicament.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

You extended the bleeding an extra couple years. They could have bought their way out of Petry's contract and survived the Granlund/Rutta deals.

It was also more than the 1st, their 2nd went to Montreal and instead of getting Karlsson the Pens could have taken Hoffman in return who they would have already shed his contract.

In reality had Matheson and Marino haven't been traded they wouldn't be in any of this predicament.

Nah. I prefer the EK trade to all of that. Now and then.

 

[Tom Hanks]

IF our 5vs5 was satisfactory and the goaltending was good, then it comes down to the core making or breaking this team on their PP. And they blew it.

“but the goaltending wasn’t good.”
(Arrested Development narrator)


As for the PP that was on everyone.

needed a good RH shot - GM
net front presence - GM
Malkin not on the point (as @Ugene Magic has said) - Coach
Lots of good chances not buried - Players
If chances aren’t being buried then try new strategies - Coach

I get it you hate Sid,Geno & Tang being on this team. Weird but ok………

 

[Turin]

You extended the bleeding an extra couple years. They could have bought their way out of Petry's contract and survived the Granlund/Rutta deals.

It was also more than the 1st, their 2nd went to Montreal and instead of getting Karlsson the Pens could have taken Hoffman in return who they would have already shed his contract.

In reality had Matheson and Marino haven't been traded they wouldn't be in any of this predicament.

The Pens weren't going to rebuild last season. They're not there to just languish intentionally.

People need to understand that when assessing the Karlsson trade. Keeping 11 million of hot garbage on the roster was. not. on. the. table.

 

[Gurglesons]

The Pens weren't going to rebuild last season. They're not there to just languish intentionally.

People need to understand that when assessing the Karlsson trade. Keeping 11 million of hot garbage on the roster was. not. on. the. table.

Granlund would have been our third best forward production wise.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Granlund would have been our third best forward production wise.

I don't think a single Penguins fan wanted Granlund to stay here.

And as we've seen from Karlsson, points on a lotto team like SJ don't necessarily translate to the same points in Pittsburgh.

 

[SomeDude]

I don't think a single Penguins fan wanted Granlund to stay here.

And as we've seen from Karlsson, points on a lotto team like SJ don't necessarily translate to the same points in Pittsburgh.

For what it’s worth I would have happily kept Granlund if Sully was rightfully fired. Granlund is a decent enough player if you don’t have a jackass coach who shoehorns him into a role he’s never played for good reason.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

For what it’s worth I would have happily kept Granlund if Sully was rightfully fired. Granlund is a decent enough player if you don’t have a jackass coach who shoehorns him into a role he’s never player for good reason.

I thought it was an extremely wrongheaded trade. But mostly because of how I knew he'd be deployed. It's a constant roadblock with this team. You cannot assess players accurately.

 

[K Fleur]

Granlund would have been our third best forward production wise.

Granlund ain’t scoring like that on this team

You know this, you’re just fully tourqued on the Dubas rant