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Honour Over Glory

#firesully
Jan 30, 2012
81,989
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Of note is also ice time. When he got 35 points, he averaged 14:46. Gifted a lot of minutes at 5v5 he didn't really deserve.
Puustinen for example got 11:45, despite producing super well with those limited minutes. What is Glass gonna get if he doesn't?
Zohorna had 9:46 in his final season here, to give an indication.

What he really needs is injuries in the top-six to move up, at a time when he's scoring.
Puustinen got shit usage in his first season and was on pace for the breakout numbers Doc put up and somehow is still shit on by idiots. So I commend you for pointing out the hypocrisy mate.

Cody was also playing on their top line the year he broke out, for stretches at a time, and imagine if Puustinen got as much top line minutes as Doc or Glass? He'd put up far better numbers.
 
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Honour Over Glory

#firesully
Jan 30, 2012
81,989
46,312
The Hockey Guy just ranked the top 12 coaches in the NHL and Sullivan wasn’t on it lol…so much for FSG and Dubas singing his praises…


I f***ing love it. The loser getting ranked low is the hockey world seeing he's nothing 7yrs after his cups and you have Kindergarten Kyle and FSG still wanking to this bell-end.

That list is f***ing whack but it doesn't have Sullivan on it and I love it.

sully has shown that (at times) he can get the b team to out preform the a team.
Not by much and on losing non playoff teams that's not saying much.
 

Malkinstheman

Registered User
Aug 12, 2012
10,284
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If Glass only pots 6pts in 50gp, it won't be because of zone starts. Zone starts are a worthless stat to measure performance.
I don't think that's true at all. With how this team plays, if you're starting in the Dzone, you will end up spending a bunch of time there. It's not a coincidence why bottom 6ers with an average of around 40% Dzone starts come here and their production absolutely craters.

Is it a coincidence that Eller is one of the few guys that has worked under Sullivan's usage? For once they actually got a guy who is used to being buried with shit minutes.
 

AuroraBorealis

Back-to-back hater
Oct 16, 2018
20,503
17,806
Vancouver, British Columbia
Puustinen got shit usage in his first season and was on pace for the breakout numbers Doc put up and somehow is still shit on by idiots. So I commend you for pointing out the hypocrisy mate.

Cody was also playing on their top line the year he broke out, for stretches at a time, and imagine if Puustinen got as much top line minutes as Doc or Glass? He'd put up far better numbers.
1723768404306.png


That's why I like this stat. It's more fair to the players getting boned, or gifted.
It's ridiculous that Puustinen was only getting 10:15 at 5v5, with how well he was doing and how badly the team needed depth scoring.
He also had worse quality of linemates, yeah.
Puustinen has some work to do with goal scoring, but the points were definitely there.

He should definitely be a regular next year. If some nobody is playing over him, that's gonna be annoying.
 

DesertedPenguin

Registered User
Mar 11, 2007
7,512
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The Hockey Guy just ranked the top 12 coaches in the NHL and Sullivan wasn’t on it lol…so much for FSG and Dubas singing his praises…


Yup, nailed it...Dubas, FSG, and every other GM and ownership group in the NHL is hanging on every word The Hockey Guy has to say in his coach evaluations.
 

SEALBound

Fancy Gina Carano
Sponsor
Jun 13, 2010
42,898
21,783
Well that’s not true at all. Not only does it give you a good sense of usage, it’s definitely easier if you start closer to the goal.

Getting more O-zone starts frequently leads to more points.
Getting more D-zone starts frequently leads to less.

There's outliers, sure. But if we're talking seasonal expectations, he's probably f***ed if he gets like 30-35% O-zone starts.
That's because you have to sacrifice too big of a % of your shifts getting up ice, set up, and generating chances.

If you're having an explosive offensive year in the bottom-six with 70% D-zone starts, what's likely happening is that you're capitalizing at an unsustainable rate, being clinical off the rush.
Boyle had a season like that, for example. It happens, but don't bank on it.

Better to just put a player in a position to succeed.
I get why you guys think what you do but, unfortunately, you're wrong. This has been covered a couple of times by various sources, but here are a couple pretty good ones:

https://hockey-graphs.com/tag/zone-starts/#:~:text=Zone%20starts%20are%20not%20that,effect%20on%20a%20player's%20performance.


The rink is too small and the game is too dynamic for zone starts to matter on any significant level. On top of that, not every shift starts on a faceoff. Changing on the fly isn't taken into account so you're only capturing a relatively small amount of the game. The idea that "oh Sullivan ruined his offense because he was given 65% zone starts" is not substantiated by ANY amount of data that would even remotely be considered reliable. Sullivan has a role, most likely, but it's not zone starts.
 

Honour Over Glory

#firesully
Jan 30, 2012
81,989
46,312
View attachment 901322

That's why I like this stat. It's more fair to the players getting boned, or gifted.
It's ridiculous that Puustinen was only getting 10:15 at 5v5, with how well he was doing and how badly the team needed depth scoring.
He also had worse quality of linemates, yeah.
Puustinen has some work to do with goal scoring, but the points were definitely there.

He should definitely be a regular next year. If some nobody is playing over him, that's gonna be annoying.
Preaching to the choir mate, I posted that exact thing and others to prove how good Puustinen was even with the absolutely atrocious usage he was getting, for any coach or staff, even if you don't like analytics, this one tells you all you need to know for a player that maximizes his time and his production within that and Puustinen did it incredibly well.
 

Jacob

as seen on TV
Feb 27, 2002
50,313
27,088
Our 4th was horrendous at getting out of the D zone last year. It’d take 5-6 crisp passes just to get to the red line. We assume that’s the system but some of that is just how slow they were. When you’re stuck in the mud you’re forced to make more passes because you’re instantly swarmed. If you’re moving a little you can get to openings and even if you’re not flying the opposition might heed you a little more ground. If you just have the *appearance* of a general competence with the puck they’ll give you an extra millisecond to make a play. But when you’re a shell of Jeff Carter or Acciari with his ankles swollen from shot blocking you’re doomed before you even stepped over the boards. And both out at the same time is suicide.
 

Honour Over Glory

#firesully
Jan 30, 2012
81,989
46,312
Our 4th was horrendous at getting out of the D zone last year. It’d take 5-6 crisp passes just to get to the red line. We assume that’s the system but some of that is just how slow they were. When you’re stuck in the mud you’re forced to make more passes because you’re instantly swarmed. If you’re moving a little you can get to openings and even if you’re not flying the opposition might heed you a little more ground. If you just have the *appearance* of a general competence with the puck they’ll give you an extra millisecond to make a play. But when you’re a shell of Jeff Carter or Acciari with his ankles swollen from shot blocking you’re doomed before you even stepped over the boards. And both out at the same time is suicide.
I mean, Harkins and Acciari being the wingers on that line with over played Carter, not sure why anyone would think that was a good line to roll out as often as it was. Let's never forget that line was also used to defend the lead or at late minutes in 3rd periods.
 
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Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
96,607
78,543
Joshua Tree, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
I mean, Harkins and Acciari being the wingers on that line with over played Carter, not sure why anyone would think that was a good line to roll out as often as it was. Let's never forget that line was also used to defend the lead or at late minutes in 3rd periods.

The identity line I believe some called it.
 
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Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
56,832
49,406
I get why you guys think what you do but, unfortunately, you're wrong. This has been covered a couple of times by various sources, but here are a couple pretty good ones:

https://hockey-graphs.com/tag/zone-starts/#:~:text=Zone%20starts%20are%20not%20that,effect%20on%20a%20player's%20performance.


The rink is too small and the game is too dynamic for zone starts to matter on any significant level. On top of that, not every shift starts on a faceoff. Changing on the fly isn't taken into account so you're only capturing a relatively small amount of the game. The idea that "oh Sullivan ruined his offense because he was given 65% zone starts" is not substantiated by ANY amount of data that would even remotely be considered reliable. Sullivan has a role, most likely, but it's not zone starts.
That's an old article. They track both offensive zone starts and offensive zone faceoff starts now. So I don't think you can argue that our bottom six's usage doesn't affect their offense.

Look at a guy like Acciari. He was a guy who was expected to be a 10+ goal, 20+ point guy because that's what he did prior to coming here. Why? Because even though he was used in defensive situations, it was closer to 37-38% Ozone shifts versus a ridiculous 14.4% with the Pens. Even if you factor in all the "shifts on the fly", it doesn't make up for the fact those shifts NOT on the fly were disproportionately in the Dzone compared to his prior years when he actually scored or paced for over 10 goals and well over 20 points.
 

Honour Over Glory

#firesully
Jan 30, 2012
81,989
46,312
That's an old article. They track both offensive zone starts and offensive zone faceoff starts now. So I don't think you can argue that our bottom six's usage doesn't affect their offense.

Look at a guy like Acciari. He was a guy who was expected to be a 10+ goal, 20+ point guy because that's what he did prior to coming here. Why? Because even though he was used in defensive situations, it was closer to 37-38% Ozone shifts versus a ridiculous 14.4% with the Pens. Even if you factor in all the "shifts on the fly", it doesn't make up for the fact those shifts NOT on the fly were disproportionately in the Dzone compared to his prior years when he actually scored or paced for over 10 goals and well over 20 points.
The last 7-8 years Sullivan has used the bottom 6 that way and then asks them to produce somehow and some do to a degree but most are destroyed. No other coach does that if you looked around. Maybe a player or two, Sullivan will do that to basically 2 lines.
 

OtherThingsILike

Registered User
May 6, 2020
1,732
1,474
Pittsburgh
4 out of 5 of Florida’s top scorers were drafted in the top 6. That’s not even counting Ekbald, who hasn’t lived up to expectations but is still a good player.

No they didn’t draft them outside of Barkov, but they absolutely needed them to win.
Well, we've got Top 4 pick Jesse Puljujarvi and Top 6 pick Cody Glass, so we're on our way. :thumbu:
 

eXile3

Registered User
Dec 12, 2020
4,656
4,531
I get why you guys think what you do but, unfortunately, you're wrong. This has been covered a couple of times by various sources, but here are a couple pretty good ones:

https://hockey-graphs.com/tag/zone-starts/#:~:text=Zone%20starts%20are%20not%20that,effect%20on%20a%20player's%20performance.


The rink is too small and the game is too dynamic for zone starts to matter on any significant level. On top of that, not every shift starts on a faceoff. Changing on the fly isn't taken into account so you're only capturing a relatively small amount of the game. The idea that "oh Sullivan ruined his offense because he was given 65% zone starts" is not substantiated by ANY amount of data that would even remotely be considered reliable. Sullivan has a role, most likely, but it's not zone starts.
Thanks I’ll give them a read.
 

Andy99

Registered User
Jun 26, 2017
53,018
34,817
Based on who was brought in by Dubas via trade and signings, none of those guys will be waived, and none of our vets will be traded. Guarantee that anyone making over $800k salary will not be waived and will be playing in the NHL for our team…that means we know, barring injury, who the starting 12 forwards will be on this team…we also know that the competition to be our bench warming 13th forward will be between Puusty, PoolParty, Bemstrom, Poulin, Gruden and any nonwaiver exempt forward…our prospects have less than zero chance of making the team…good job Dubas and Sullivan lol

DOC-Sid-Rust
Bunting-G-Rakell
Beauvillier-Hayes-Glass
Lizotte-Eller-Acciari
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
96,607
78,543
Joshua Tree, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
Based on who was brought in by Dubas via trade and signings, none of those guys will be waived, and none of our vets will be traded. Guarantee that anyone making over $800k salary will not be waived and will be playing in the NHL for our team…that means we know, barring injury, who the starting 12 forwards will be on this team…we also know that the competition to be our bench warming 13th forward will be between Puusty, PoolParty, Bemstrom, Poulin, Gruden and any nonwaiver exempt forward…our prospects have less than zero chance of making the team…good job Dubas and Sullivan lol

DOC-Sid-Rust
Bunting-G-Rakell
Beauvillier-Hayes-Glass
Lizotte-Eller-Acciari

Yeah this is what I expect as well. Although I think Glass might go on L2 and Rakell in the LW hole on L1 to start.
 

McGroarty2

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
3,269
2,226
PA
I wonder if they are thinking of trying Malkin at wing with all the Centers they brought in. It would also alleviate some of Malkin's defensive responsibilities.

Rakell Crosby Rust
Bunting Eller Malkin
O'Connor Hayes Beauvillier
Lizotte Acciari Glass
Puljujarvi
 

Andy99

Registered User
Jun 26, 2017
53,018
34,817
Yeah this is what I expect as well. Although I think Glass might go on L2 and Rakell in the LW hole on L1 to start.
It may not be the exact lines but those are the 12 forwards who’ll be playing every night barring injury…the team does this year after year, filling spots with semi worthless vets lol
 
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