Salary Cap: Pens Salary Cap Thread: If we score 6 we win, its science!

[Allie Kitsune]

How?
We literally just lost a series we dominated because he was unavailable. He is critical.

He's played 9 playoff games. There are no smart takeaways to be made from that kinda sample size. It's all just emotions.

What we do know is that he has a higher talent level than most goalies. Relatively durable too and in his prime.
Everyone loves change for the sake of it until it happens and things go horribly wrong.

These kinda goalies aren't as available as people think. Even if one is, he might not fit in well here.

It also might have been a lot easier question to answer if we hadn't lost a whole year of development out of Lindberg.

 

[pistolpete11]

Why do you think this? There was lots of rumors around us trying to do something else in net last time he was signed.

He signed after the '19-20 season and was coming off a .921SV% season. To the extent there was any talk about Penguins goalies that offseason, I think it was mostly centered around how to get rid of Murray and what to do if they couldn't.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

It also might have been a lot easier question to answer if we hadn't lost a whole year of development out of Lindberg.

For sure. I thought Lindberg would fare better than he has, both with health and performance.
He's struggling this year.

 

[Gurglesons]

He signed after the '19-20 season and was coming off a .921SV% season. To the extent there was any talk about Penguins goalies that offseason, I think it was mostly centered around how to get rid of Murray and what to do if they couldn't.

The year after it was talked about how we were going to walk from him by multiple outlets.

 

[pistolpete11]

The year after it was talked about how we were going to walk from him by multiple outlets.

But they didn't, or couldn't, and he's been pretty good since then other than getting hurt at a very inopportune time.

And again, they don't really have any other good options. I wouldn't sign him until after the playoffs because if he melts down again, I'd rather go with CDS than have to put up with that shit again. If he plays reasonable well, though, he's going to be their best option and I'd expect them to pay up for it.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

But they didn't, or couldn't, and he's been pretty good since then other than getting hurt at a very inopportune time.

And again, they don't really have any other good options. I wouldn't sign him until after the playoffs because if he melts down again, I'd rather go with CDS than have to put up with that shit again. If he plays reasonable well, though, he's going to be their best option and I'd expect them to pay up for it.

I think Jarry having issues in net in one of the years was seen as the main problem considering the team defense wasn't really all that fantastic either and since then, most here have noticed it enough to call out the Team Defense hanging out goalies to dry and being hemmed into their own end for far too long giving up far too many shots and opportunities. In the Isles series, it's easy to hate on Jarry because he was clearly going through it that season already with up and down play all season and then it culminated in a pretty bad series for him in which Hextall had to speak to him in the off season to still tell him he was their guy which led to a fantastic next season. Of course, then Sullivan over plays Jarry down the stretch and he gets hurt. Last season he played 58, but the way Sullivan was utilizing him, he was going to end up playing 65+. To go from playing at max in the NHL, 39 games to even 58, you saw the fatigue in his game, some goalies are used to that but not every goalie is and if we want to cite players playing too many long seasons as a problem for fatigue, the goalies feel it far more than the players do.

I want nothing to do with CDS after this season, he f***ing sucks and this weird like of such a shitty person will always be bizarre to me but idiotic sports culture is gonna stay idiotic.

If Jarry plays well and the team in front of him is absolute shit, people here will still find a way to blame Jarry. We've already seen games this season where Jarry has been good but the team in front of him was ass and the fans here still mocked Jarry, so if you think anyone here would actually understand the issue, you're very wrong. It doesn't matter who they get in net, blokes talk about "All we need is someone that is at least average in net..." yeah f***ing bullshit mate. They essentially need prime Roy+Brodeur+Hasek combined at this stage to let the raging knobs here stay quiet about goaltending.

CDS is never the answer, sucks there's another year of this asshole.
Jarry can be, but the team in front of him has to help.
We have goalie back-up options in the pipeline but relying on CDS to be mediocre as shit with a few hot streaks here and there will never let us find out.


Jarry in one of his first stints had a problem where he wasn't used to the workload and they wanted him to work on it all the while other teams were realizing that playing a goalie over 50 games is not ideal in season and started to add back-ups that can handle 25-30 games. The Penguins still haven't really figured that out and never will, this isn't on Jarry to be so insane with his conditioning that he has to change the player he is to fit into an archaic mindset about his position that has since been dead for a lot of teams that have changed up their idea of what a goalie tandem should look like. The fact that CDS has never been able to be good enough consistently to allow Jarry more breaks to stay fresh never being seen as the problem is f***ing hilarious.

 

[pistolpete11]

I think Jarry having issues in net in one of the years was seen as the main problem considering the team defense wasn't really all that fantastic either and since then, most here have noticed it enough to call out the Team Defense hanging out goalies to dry and being hemmed into their own end for far too long giving up far too many shots and opportunities. In the Isles series, it's easy to hate on Jarry because he was clearly going through it that season already with up and down play all season and then it culminated in a pretty bad series for him in which Hextall had to speak to him in the off season to still tell him he was their guy which led to a fantastic next season. Of course, then Sullivan over plays Jarry down the stretch and he gets hurt. Last season he played 58, but the way Sullivan was utilizing him, he was going to end up playing 65+. To go from playing at max in the NHL, 39 games to even 58, you saw the fatigue in his game, some goalies are used to that but not every goalie is and if we want to cite players playing too many long seasons as a problem for fatigue, the goalies feel it far more than the players do.

I want nothing to do with CDS after this season, he f***ing sucks and this weird like of such a shitty person will always be bizarre to me but idiotic sports culture is gonna stay idiotic.

If Jarry plays well and the team in front of him is absolute shit, people here will still find a way to blame Jarry. We've already seen games this season where Jarry has been good but the team in front of him was ass and the fans here still mocked Jarry, so if you think anyone here would actually understand the issue, you're very wrong. It doesn't matter who they get in net, blokes talk about "All we need is someone that is at least average in net..." yeah f***ing bullshit mate. They essentially need prime Roy+Brodeur+Hasek combined at this stage to let the raging knobs here stay quiet about goaltending.

CDS is never the answer, sucks there's another year of this asshole.
Jarry can be, but the team in front of him has to help.
We have goalie back-up options in the pipeline but relying on CDS to be mediocre as shit with a few hot streaks here and there will never let us find out.


Jarry in one of his first stints had a problem where he wasn't used to the workload and they wanted him to work on it all the while other teams were realizing that playing a goalie over 50 games is not ideal in season and started to add back-ups that can handle 25-30 games. The Penguins still haven't really figured that out and never will, this isn't on Jarry to be so insane with his conditioning that he has to change the player he is to fit into an archaic mindset about his position that has since been dead for a lot of teams that have changed up their idea of what a goalie tandem should look like. The fact that CDS has never been able to be good enough consistently to allow Jarry more breaks to stay fresh never being seen as the problem is f***ing hilarious.

I mostly agree with you, but you're glossing over how bad he was in that playoff series. If he were to do that again, then I want nothing to do with him going forward. Saying to go with CDS is hyperbolic, but I don't want to give Jarry $6M just because I don't want CDS. They'd have to find another answer.

Also, CDS doesn't suck. Say what you will about him as a person, but outside of his awful start last year, he's been a good backup, especially given the price.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I mostly agree with you, but you're glossing over how bad he was in that playoff series. If he were to do that again, then I want nothing to do with him going forward. Saying to go with CDS is hyperbolic, but I don't want to give Jarry $6M just because I don't want CDS. They'd have to find another answer.

Also, CDS doesn't suck. Say what you will about him as a person, but outside of his awful start last year, he's been a good backup, especially given the price.

I think a lot of blokes here need to watch that entire series again and ask themselves if they also thought the team in front of Jarry was amazing. I saw a team that was barely good enough to make it to the 2nd round to get destroyed, but Jarry was definitely bad. But this weird notion like that team was done super dirty and was some amazing team that deserved a chance is comical.


Because find me your excuse for this:
Crosby, 6 games played 1goal (2pts)
Gentzel, 6 games played, 1goal (2pts)

FFS - Jeff Carter led that team with 4 goals, no one else had more than 2 goals.

Malkin, Crosby, Guentzel, and Rust all combined for 6 goals and Malkin was playing through some rough injuries. That team was not as good as you want to think it was and Jarry being crap was maybe the poster boy for what that team really was. Shit.

The Isles bigger players were finding ways to the front of the net and scoring consistently on Jarry because of that, the Pens had issues clearing the crease for years, still do, and the Isles took them to task on that. And CDS sucks, he has these long stretches of being shit to barely mediocre and then is buoyed by a week and half of very good play to boost his stats. If he was better, he'd get more than 20-26 games like he did back when Murray was slowly imploding.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

Goaltending and Powerplay was the reason we lost the last 2 series, we couldn't put teams away when we needed to when we had plenty of opportunities

 

[pistolpete11]

I think a lot of blokes here need to watch that entire series again and ask themselves if they also thought the team in front of Jarry was amazing. I saw a team that was barely good enough to make it to the 2nd round to get destroyed, but Jarry was definitely bad. But this weird notion like that team was done super dirty and was some amazing team that deserved a chance is comical.


Because find me your excuse for this:
Crosby, 6 games played 1goal (2pts)
Gentzel, 6 games played, 1goal (2pts)

FFS - Jeff Carter led that team with 4 goals, no one else had more than 2 goals.

Malkin, Crosby, Guentzel, and Rust all combined for 6 goals and Malkin was playing through some rough injuries. That team was not as good as you want to think it was and Jarry being crap was maybe the poster boy for what that team really was. Shit.

The Isles bigger players were finding ways to the front of the net and scoring consistently on Jarry because of that, the Pens had issues clearing the crease for years, still do, and the Isles took them to task on that. And CDS sucks, he has these long stretches of being shit to barely mediocre and then is buoyed by a week and half of very good play to boost his stats. If he was better, he'd get more than 20-26 games like he did back when Murray was slowly imploding.

We're talking about Jarry. Not playing the butterfly effect game here. Jarry was f***ing awful and was the single biggest reason they lost that series. If he has 3 seasons as the starter is hurt for 1 and shits the bed for the other 2, I'm not willing to waste the rest of the Crosby-Malkin era on him. Sorry.

 

[canadianguy77]

If not Jarry, then who though? Take a look at the UFA’s coming up and the list isn’t very impressive. And btw, TJ is getting more than 6 million a year. Somewhere between 7-9 million is what it will cost to keep him.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

We're talking about Jarry. Not playing the butterfly effect game here. Jarry was f***ing awful and was the single biggest reason they lost that series. If he has 3 seasons as the starter is hurt for 1 and shits the bed for the other 2, I'm not willing to waste the rest of the Crosby-Malkin era on him. Sorry.

The point was that while Jarry was awful that year, that team was was also shit in the playoffs up front.

And waste the Malkin and Crosby era? Sullivan has done that masterfully the last 5 seasons. Murray was average enough to beat the Habs but the forwards weren’t. Must’ve been Jarry’s fault too.

2018 ZAR’s face met Wilson
2019 they were swept by the isles - Murray was in net
2020 they were ousted by the Habs in the play in for the playoffs, technically didn’t even make the traditional playoffs
2021 they lost 4-2 in the playoffs
2022 they lost 4-3 to the rangers

Goalies aren’t the issue. Blame Jarry all you want. The real person wasting the rest of the Sid and Geno era is the head coach.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

It’s funny. Fleury left and went on to the finals again and won a vezina. Murray struggled with the sens and is now back on track with the leafs. Jarry should leave, then muppets here can whine about how we have another shit goalie while Jarry and Murray resurrect their careers away from the team. Seems to happen a lot once players are freed from sully.

To me the thing about the playoffs is you plan for your one opponent and tighten things up. Sullivan doesn't. He thinks the same way they play all season is enough and the other teams know you have to plan. So the players and goalie gets hung out to dry and we get silly Sully quotes about not playing their game or some dumb shit.

Sullivan has been out coached in 5 straight playoffs. He's won 1 round in 5 seasons.

 

[Allie Kitsune]

The point was that while Jarry was awful that year, that team was was also shit in the playoffs up front.

And waste the Malkin and Crosby era? Sullivan has done that masterfully the last 5 seasons. Murray was average enough to beat the Habs but the forwards weren’t. Must’ve been Jarry’s fault too.

2018 ZAR’s face met Wilson
2019 they were swept by the isles - Murray was in net
2020 they were ousted by the Habs in the play in for the playoffs, technically didn’t even make the traditional playoffs
2021 they lost 4-2 in the playoffs
2022 they lost 4-3 to the rangers

Goalies aren’t the issue. Blame Jarry all you want. The real person wasting the rest of the Sid and Geno era is the head coach.

Without sounding incredibly spoiled, it's kind of insane to think about how many cups they would have won if absolutely everything broke right for them (a case could be made for 2008, 2012, 2018, and 2022 at minimum).

 

[canadianguy77]

Without sounding incredibly spoiled, it's kind of insane to think about how many cups they would have won if absolutely everything broke right for them (a case could be made for 2008, 2012, 2018, and 2022 at minimum).

Lots of luck involved in the playoffs. I learned that lesson in ‘93 and will never forget it.

 

[Turin]

Without sounding incredibly spoiled, it's kind of insane to think about how many cups they would have won if absolutely everything broke right for them (a case could be made for 2008, 2012, 2018, and 2022 at minimum).

And just as easily, when you think about the Lidstrom save or the Ovechkin save in 09, or the offside challenges in 2016, or the injuries to Nashville in 2017 or the Ovechkin stick save the team could also be empty handed instead of having 3 Cups.

 

[canadianguy77]

And just as easily, when you think about the Lidstrom save or the Ovechkin save in 09, or the offside challenges in 2016, or the injuries to Nashville in 2017 or the Ovechkin stick save the team could also be empty handed instead of having 3 Cups.

The Penguins were winning game 7 against the Caps no matter what. That OV save changed nothing.

The injuries to Nashville don’t make a difference to me. The injury to Letang did. If he plays in the ‘17 playoffs, we likely don’t win the cup.

The Lidstrom save wasn’t as great as it’s played out to be. He didn’t have much to shoot at and was running out of time. Fleury coming out all aggressive and stacking the pads was the best and only play he should make in that situation.

The offsides in 16 you could very well be right on.

 

[Gurglesons]

The Penguins were winning game 7 against the Caps no matter what. That OV save changed nothing.

The injuries to Nashville don’t make a difference to me. The injury to Letang did. If he plays in the ‘17 playoffs, we likely don’t win the cup.

The Lidstrom save wasn’t as great as it’s played out to be. He didn’t have much to shoot at and was running out of time. Fleury coming out all aggressive and stacking the pads was the best and only play he should make in that situation.

The offsides in 16 you could very well be right on.

Nashville wins that series if they are able to bring in a competent center like we were able to do with Hainsey for RyJo.

 

[canadianguy77]

Nashville wins that series if they are able to bring in a competent center like we were able to do with Hainsey for RyJo.

Almost impossible to do though the when you’re that deep into the playoffs.

Kunitz had no business sniffing the top 6 in the 17 playoffs.

Everyone remembers the Ottawa goal in OT, but they conveniently forget that pretty much any other winger in the top 6 would’ve been better than he was, and game 7 would probably never need to have happened. He was that bad in those playoffs.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Without sounding incredibly spoiled, it's kind of insane to think about how many cups they would have won if absolutely everything broke right for them (a case could be made for 2008, 2012, 2018, and 2022 at minimum).

I think after the Habs loss in the play in, they needed to fire Sullivan and a revamped roster with the core and a new ideology behind the bench would have maybe won more. The signs were there that year that shit was going south. They ignored it and now we're here.

Before the stoppage, all of Sullivan's warts were on full display and even when they got owned by the Habs. They ignored it.

 

[Gurglesons]

Not sure how you argue this team was winning a cup over anyone in 2022 lol

 

[AuroraBorealis]

The injuries to Nashville don’t make a difference to me. The injury to Letang did. If he plays in the ‘17 playoffs, we likely don’t win the cup.

We won the previous year in much more dominant form with Letang and with minor changes to the lineup outside that, so I don't really agree with this. '17 had a ton of turtling and relying on team defense and goaltending. Letang wasn't there to get us out of our end.
Sure, it's possible Letang may have had a bad playoffs and made brutal errors, but you can say that about anyone.

 

[Daeni10]

To be honest I think NHL starting goalies are all on a very similar level. There are a few elite goalies like Vasi or Shestherkin, but in the tier after that there isn't that much of a difference. There are so man goalies who are hot for a year and than not so hot for another, and if you want to win your cup, your goalie needs to be on a hot year. So unless you get into that elite territory, I dont think you can upgrade much

 

[HandshakeLine]

How many cups did Lundqvist win again?

 

[Pengu]

Keepers are such voodoo. If you look at goalies with a cap hit of 5+ it really is a hit and miss.
I'd be very vary of handing out long term deals to goalies with a high cap hit as it can really hamstring the team.
Campell in Edmonton is one such example, but you have Bobrovsky, Markstrom, Gibson etc that are performing really poorly and there really isn't any way out of those deals...