Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

[HandshakeLine]

Why did we need him in the first place? I hate to keep coming back to this but it’s like the team doesn’t even watch their own games, let alone other teams.

 

[Pancakes]

Graves had the same issues on the Devils. I remember him getting walked repeatedly in their series against the Canes and I remember him making a lot of the same bonehead plays for the Devils that he did here.

He didn't suddenly become a bum here. The Devils just sheltered his weaknesses better because they're a better team.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Why did we need him in the first place? I hate to keep coming back to this but it’s like the team doesn’t even watch their own games, let alone other teams.

Dumoulin replacement. Didn't have another good top-4 LD.
Let's say it worked and he played like 2022-23 for us. We'd make the playoffs with ease.

I agree that they shouldn't have been handing out long term deals at that time though. Even if he played well they weren't contenders, and they weren't going to be in the future. That's a move you make when you're pushing for a Cup, not just hanging around.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Graves had the same issues on the Devils. I remember him getting walked repeatedly in their series against the Canes and I remember him making a lot of the same bonehead plays for the Devils that he did here.

He didn't suddenly become a bum here. The Devils just sheltered his weaknesses better because they're a better team.

Sheltered? He had a 96 percentile competition rating. He got big minutes. He was a top minute PKer, and their stingiest.
That's the complete opposite of sheltering. Just because it was a strong team doesn't mean he wasn't relied on and a good piece.

You're looking at the playoffs only. That's a small sample and not a fair way to judge.
He sucked in 2021-22, but outside of that he was strong before coming to us.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Dumoulin replacement. Didn't have another good top-4 LD.
Let's say it worked and he played like 2022-23 for us. We'd make the playoffs with ease.

I agree that they shouldn't have been handing out long term deals at that time though. Even if he played well they weren't contenders, and they weren't going to be in the future. That's a move you make when you're pushing for a Cup, not just hanging around.

But Dumoulin's game was never Graves' game. It makes no sense.

It's like signing Lars Eller to be a Malkin replacement.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

But Dumoulin's game was never Graves' game. It makes no sense.

It's like signing Lars Eller to be a Malkin replacement.

He was intended to insulate Letang, like he did Makar.
He was also meant to be a be a top PKer, which is a hyper focus here. The PK was 10th I believe. So that aspect worked out (and it may again).

Even if he goes about it a diff way than Dumo, the result is pretty similar.
He's hard to score on historically. Even last year he didn't get scored on that much for his minutes, for as much as he got blasted. Was still a +10. He needs to get better with helping our transition more than anything.

People are talking like he was Ludvig's level or something last year. Nah, that's an exaggeration. He's just overpaid.

 

[Pancakes]

Sheltered? He had a 96 percentile competition rating. He got big minutes. He was a top minute PKer, and their stingiest.
That's the complete opposite of sheltering. Just because it was a strong team doesn't mean he wasn't relied on and a good piece.

You're looking at the playoffs only. That's a small sample and not a fair way to judge.
He sucked in 2021-22, but outside of that he was strong before coming to us.

The way the Devils played was better suited for Graves is what I meant by "sheltered his weaknesses". Graves even talked about how it was an adjustment coming here because the Devils defensive scheme is completely different from what the Pens play and the way the Pens like to break pucks out is also significantly different from the Devils. For example the Pens like to stretch it out on the breakout whereas the Devils (at least the Devils under Ruff) had players coming in low in the d-zone and making short passes to get the breakout started.

I'm not surprised Graves did better in that system than what Sullivan runs. He's not a quick transition player at all and he never will be. He'll never be suited to the way Sullivan wants the Pens to play hockey.

 

[HandshakeLine]

He was intended to insulate Letang, like he did Makar.
He was also meant to be a be a top PKer, which is a hyper focus here. The PK was 10th I believe. So that aspect worked out (and it may again).

Even if he goes about it a diff way than Dumo, the result is pretty similar.
He's hard to score on historically. Even last year he didn't get scored on that much for his minutes, for as much as he got blasted. Was still a +10. He needs to get better with helping our transition more than anything.

People are talking like he was Ludvig's level or something last year. Nah, that's an exaggeration. He's just overpaid.

But we're asking him to do something he didn't traditionally do and expecting him to be a player he's not. It's dumb.

I'm not saying that Graves is nearly as bad as his play has been. But he doesn't seem to have anything that this club needs in reality. He would have been a great gamble of a pickup if we actually played like we claim we do, but we don't actually play that kind of game. That's what I'm getting at.

This organization doesn't really seem to understand that either, so yay us.

The way the Devils played was better suited for Graves is what I meant by "sheltered his weaknesses". Graves even talked about how it was an adjustment coming here because the Devils defensive scheme is completely different from what the Pens play and the way the Pens like to break pucks out is also significantly different from the Devils. For example the Pens like to stretch it out on the breakout whereas the Devils (at least the Devils under Ruff) had players coming in low in the d-zone and making short passes to get the breakout started.

I'm not surprised Graves did better in that system than what Sullivan runs. He's not a quick transition player at all and he never will be. He'll never be suited to the way Sullivan wants the Pens to play hockey.

This.

But honestly, I'm also convinced that this team roster can't play the one system Sullivan thinks we play either.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

The way the Devils played was better suited for Graves is what I meant by "sheltered his weaknesses". Graves even talked about how it was an adjustment coming here because the Devils defensive scheme is completely different from what the Pens play and the way the Pens like to break pucks out is also significantly different from the Devils. For example the Pens like to stretch it out on the breakout whereas the Devils (at least the Devils under Ruff) had players coming in low in the d-zone and making short passes to get the breakout started.

I'm not surprised Graves did better in that system than what Sullivan runs. He's not a quick transition player at all and he never will be. He'll never be suited to the way Sullivan wants the Pens to play hockey.

His primary job is to prevent goals against. If he does that at a strong rate, he is worth a lineup spot every night, even if he's getting crushed in Corsi.
All he needs to do is allow the Pens to come out in net positives on the scoreboard when he's on the ice, to as big of an extent as possible.

If he is incapable with the stretch passes, the Forwards need to adjust and do a better job at supporting him. They played the way you mentioned the Devils play in the 2017 playoffs, under this same coach.

It's more about Forward mentality than it is tactics anyway. They rush up ice because Letang or EK is almost always on the ice. When the Forwards feel the blue line is weaker in transition and vulnerable, they come back further to help. We see it happen with call-up D-men all the time. It takes a while for their teammates to trust them completely.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

But we're asking him to do something he didn't traditionally do and expecting him to be a player he's not. It's dumb.

I'm not saying that Graves is nearly as bad as his play has been. But he doesn't seem to have anything that this club needs in reality. He would have been a great gamble of a pickup if we actually played like we claim we do, but we don't actually play that kind of game. That's what I'm getting at.

This organization doesn't really seem to understand that either, so yay us.

I will take poor transition play all day if he prevents goals against like other good middle-pairing LDs in the league. If he comes out of this year like +20 and the PK is top 10 again with his help, I will consider it mission accomplished even if his Corsi is 35.

5v5 scoring was not this team's problem anyway. They had the 6th most in the league.
All he needs to do is be notably stingier than washed Dumo, and everything will be fine.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I will take poor transition play all day if he prevents goals against like other good middle-pairing LDs in the league. If he comes out of this year like +20 and the PK is top 10 again with his help, I will consider it mission accomplished even if his Corsi is 35.

5v5 scoring was not this team's problem anyway. They had the 6th most in the league.
All he needs to do is be notably stingier than washed Dumo, and everything will be fine.

But Sullivan's system needs that transition play to function.

*Eagerly awaiting more stats that don't address the question*

 

[Pancakes]

His primary job is to prevent goals against. If he does that at a strong rate, he is worth a lineup spot every night, even if he's getting crushed in Corsi.
All he needs to do is allow the Pens to come out in net positives on the scoreboard when he's on the ice, to as big of an extent as possible.

If he is incapable with the stretch passes, the Forwards need to adjust and do a better job at supporting him. They played the way you mentioned the Devils play in the 2017 playoffs, under this same coach.

It's more about Forward mentality than it is tactics anyway. They rush up ice because Letang or EK is almost always on the ice. When the Forwards feel the blue line is weaker in transition and vulnerable, they come back further to help. We see it happen with call-up D-men all the time. It takes a while for their teammates to trust them completely.

There certainly are ways in which the Penguins could minimize Ryan Graves' weaknesses as a player and get more out of him.

We have not seen any indication that they will take those options under Mike Sullivan unfortunately.