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Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

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Graves had the same issues on the Devils. I remember him getting walked repeatedly in their series against the Canes and I remember him making a lot of the same bonehead plays for the Devils that he did here.

He didn't suddenly become a bum here. The Devils just sheltered his weaknesses better because they're a better team.
 
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HandshakeLine said:
Why did we need him in the first place? I hate to keep coming back to this but it’s like the team doesn’t even watch their own games, let alone other teams.
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Dumoulin replacement. Didn't have another good top-4 LD.
Let's say it worked and he played like 2022-23 for us. We'd make the playoffs with ease.

I agree that they shouldn't have been handing out long term deals at that time though. Even if he played well they weren't contenders, and they weren't going to be in the future. That's a move you make when you're pushing for a Cup, not just hanging around.
 
Pancakes said:
Graves had the same issues on the Devils. I remember him getting walked repeatedly in their series against the Canes and I remember him making a lot of the same bonehead plays for the Devils that he did here.

He didn't suddenly become a bum here. The Devils just sheltered his weaknesses better because they're a better team.
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Sheltered? He had a 96 percentile competition rating. He got big minutes. He was a top minute PKer, and their stingiest.
That's the complete opposite of sheltering. Just because it was a strong team doesn't mean he wasn't relied on and a good piece.

You're looking at the playoffs only. That's a small sample and not a fair way to judge.
He sucked in 2021-22, but outside of that he was strong before coming to us.
 
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AuroraBorealis said:
Dumoulin replacement. Didn't have another good top-4 LD.
Let's say it worked and he played like 2022-23 for us. We'd make the playoffs with ease.

I agree that they shouldn't have been handing out long term deals at that time though. Even if he played well they weren't contenders, and they weren't going to be in the future. That's a move you make when you're pushing for a Cup, not just hanging around.
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But Dumoulin's game was never Graves' game. It makes no sense.

It's like signing Lars Eller to be a Malkin replacement.
 
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HandshakeLine said:
But Dumoulin's game was never Graves' game. It makes no sense.

It's like signing Lars Eller to be a Malkin replacement.
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He was intended to insulate Letang, like he did Makar.
He was also meant to be a be a top PKer, which is a hyper focus here. The PK was 10th I believe. So that aspect worked out (and it may again).

Even if he goes about it a diff way than Dumo, the result is pretty similar.
He's hard to score on historically. Even last year he didn't get scored on that much for his minutes, for as much as he got blasted. Was still a +10. He needs to get better with helping our transition more than anything.

People are talking like he was Ludvig's level or something last year. Nah, that's an exaggeration. He's just overpaid.
 
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AuroraBorealis said:
Sheltered? He had a 96 percentile competition rating. He got big minutes. He was a top minute PKer, and their stingiest.
That's the complete opposite of sheltering. Just because it was a strong team doesn't mean he wasn't relied on and a good piece.

You're looking at the playoffs only. That's a small sample and not a fair way to judge.
He sucked in 2021-22, but outside of that he was strong before coming to us.
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The way the Devils played was better suited for Graves is what I meant by "sheltered his weaknesses". Graves even talked about how it was an adjustment coming here because the Devils defensive scheme is completely different from what the Pens play and the way the Pens like to break pucks out is also significantly different from the Devils. For example the Pens like to stretch it out on the breakout whereas the Devils (at least the Devils under Ruff) had players coming in low in the d-zone and making short passes to get the breakout started.

I'm not surprised Graves did better in that system than what Sullivan runs. He's not a quick transition player at all and he never will be. He'll never be suited to the way Sullivan wants the Pens to play hockey.
 
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AuroraBorealis said:
He was intended to insulate Letang, like he did Makar.
He was also meant to be a be a top PKer, which is a hyper focus here. The PK was 10th I believe. So that aspect worked out (and it may again).

Even if he goes about it a diff way than Dumo, the result is pretty similar.
He's hard to score on historically. Even last year he didn't get scored on that much for his minutes, for as much as he got blasted. Was still a +10. He needs to get better with helping our transition more than anything.

People are talking like he was Ludvig's level or something last year. Nah, that's an exaggeration. He's just overpaid.
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But we're asking him to do something he didn't traditionally do and expecting him to be a player he's not. It's dumb.

I'm not saying that Graves is nearly as bad as his play has been. But he doesn't seem to have anything that this club needs in reality. He would have been a great gamble of a pickup if we actually played like we claim we do, but we don't actually play that kind of game. That's what I'm getting at.

This organization doesn't really seem to understand that either, so yay us.

Pancakes said:
The way the Devils played was better suited for Graves is what I meant by "sheltered his weaknesses". Graves even talked about how it was an adjustment coming here because the Devils defensive scheme is completely different from what the Pens play and the way the Pens like to break pucks out is also significantly different from the Devils. For example the Pens like to stretch it out on the breakout whereas the Devils (at least the Devils under Ruff) had players coming in low in the d-zone and making short passes to get the breakout started.

I'm not surprised Graves did better in that system than what Sullivan runs. He's not a quick transition player at all and he never will be. He'll never be suited to the way Sullivan wants the Pens to play hockey.
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This.

But honestly, I'm also convinced that this team roster can't play the one system Sullivan thinks we play either.
 
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Pancakes said:
The way the Devils played was better suited for Graves is what I meant by "sheltered his weaknesses". Graves even talked about how it was an adjustment coming here because the Devils defensive scheme is completely different from what the Pens play and the way the Pens like to break pucks out is also significantly different from the Devils. For example the Pens like to stretch it out on the breakout whereas the Devils (at least the Devils under Ruff) had players coming in low in the d-zone and making short passes to get the breakout started.

I'm not surprised Graves did better in that system than what Sullivan runs. He's not a quick transition player at all and he never will be. He'll never be suited to the way Sullivan wants the Pens to play hockey.
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His primary job is to prevent goals against. If he does that at a strong rate, he is worth a lineup spot every night, even if he's getting crushed in Corsi.
All he needs to do is allow the Pens to come out in net positives on the scoreboard when he's on the ice, to as big of an extent as possible.

If he is incapable with the stretch passes, the Forwards need to adjust and do a better job at supporting him. They played the way you mentioned the Devils play in the 2017 playoffs, under this same coach.

It's more about Forward mentality than it is tactics anyway. They rush up ice because Letang or EK is almost always on the ice. When the Forwards feel the blue line is weaker in transition and vulnerable, they come back further to help. We see it happen with call-up D-men all the time. It takes a while for their teammates to trust them completely.
 
HandshakeLine said:
But we're asking him to do something he didn't traditionally do and expecting him to be a player he's not. It's dumb.

I'm not saying that Graves is nearly as bad as his play has been. But he doesn't seem to have anything that this club needs in reality. He would have been a great gamble of a pickup if we actually played like we claim we do, but we don't actually play that kind of game. That's what I'm getting at.

This organization doesn't really seem to understand that either, so yay us.
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I will take poor transition play all day if he prevents goals against like other good middle-pairing LDs in the league. If he comes out of this year like +20 and the PK is top 10 again with his help, I will consider it mission accomplished even if his Corsi is 35.

5v5 scoring was not this team's problem anyway. They had the 6th most in the league.
All he needs to do is be notably stingier than washed Dumo, and everything will be fine.
 
AuroraBorealis said:
I will take poor transition play all day if he prevents goals against like other good middle-pairing LDs in the league. If he comes out of this year like +20 and the PK is top 10 again with his help, I will consider it mission accomplished even if his Corsi is 35.

5v5 scoring was not this team's problem anyway. They had the 6th most in the league.
All he needs to do is be notably stingier than washed Dumo, and everything will be fine.
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But Sullivan's system needs that transition play to function.

*Eagerly awaiting more stats that don't address the question*
 
AuroraBorealis said:
His primary job is to prevent goals against. If he does that at a strong rate, he is worth a lineup spot every night, even if he's getting crushed in Corsi.
All he needs to do is allow the Pens to come out in net positives on the scoreboard when he's on the ice, to as big of an extent as possible.

If he is incapable with the stretch passes, the Forwards need to adjust and do a better job at supporting him. They played the way you mentioned the Devils play in the 2017 playoffs, under this same coach.

It's more about Forward mentality than it is tactics anyway. They rush up ice because Letang or EK is almost always on the ice. When the Forwards feel the blue line is weaker in transition and vulnerable, they come back further to help. We see it happen with call-up D-men all the time. It takes a while for their teammates to trust them completely.
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There certainly are ways in which the Penguins could minimize Ryan Graves' weaknesses as a player and get more out of him.

We have not seen any indication that they will take those options under Mike Sullivan unfortunately.
 
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HandshakeLine said:
But Sullivan's system needs that transition play to function.

*Eagerly awaiting more stats that don't address the question*
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You're talking about corsi essentially, even if that wasn't your intention. Improved cohesion with their breakouts will lead to better Corsi. The Pens will control the puck, chance counter and dictate results more with their territorial play.

But here's the thing with that. It's entirely possible to have a strong corsi but get crushed in the important areas, if you fail in the critical moments defensively. That will unravel all your work, if you're that player. Usually they go hand in hand, but not always.
Don't lose sight of what his #1 job is. He's here for goals against suppression first and foremost, not transition or puck possession. He's supposed to allow Letang or Karlsson to do their thing offensively, without the Pens getting punished at the other end for it. He's also supposed to lock it down on the PK.

What I'm saying did address the topic. The topic was Graves' viability here. I am explaining how there's a route for him to not mesh with the system, yet still do enough to help the Pens where it matters most (goal differential with him on the ice). He simply needs to shutdown the opposition to a strong enough degree where that will outweigh his deficiencies.
If he does that at the level he did in Colorado or high points in New Jersey, that's good enough for us.
 
HandshakeLine said:
Why did we need him in the first place? I hate to keep coming back to this but it’s like the team doesn’t even watch their own games, let alone other teams.
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We needed a top 4 D but had limited cap space so got in on a lower end top 4 LD.

Now you go to your team and ask them we can sign Graves or have POJ be in the top 4. The players would have said Graves. Unfortunately him and Letang were like Oil and water.
 
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KrisLetAngry said:
We needed a top 4 D but had limited cap space so got in on a lower end top 4 LD.

Now you go to your team and ask them we can sign Graves or have POJ be in the top 4. The players would have said Graves. Unfortunately him and Letang were like Oil and water.
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Why ask the players for anything though? Players don't know shit.
 
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KrisLetAngry said:
We needed a top 4 D but had limited cap space so got in on a lower end top 4 LD.

Now you go to your team and ask them we can sign Graves or have POJ be in the top 4. The players would have said Graves. Unfortunately him and Letang were like Oil and water.
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I wonder if Graves will bounce back after a year with the team, like Martin did. POJ never looked good with Letang either to be honest.
 
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Was Graves signed to play with Letang? I thought the plan was Pettersson-Letang and Graves-Petry. Landing Karlsson obviously throws a wrench into that.

I don't think Graves is a good partner for Letang or Karlsson. They like to freelance a bit too much for Graves who isn't really that steady, stay at home type IMO.
 
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HandshakeLine said:
Why did we need him in the first place? I hate to keep coming back to this but it’s like the team doesn’t even watch their own games, let alone other teams.
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When I saw the scouting report after the signing "big body but not overly physical, but also not overly offensive, and decent skater but not great" I immediately thought he was a younger Dumo.
pistolpete11 said:
I thought the plan was Pettersson-Letang and Graves-Petry.
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Mother of god.

Zirakzigil said:
I wonder if Graves will bounce back after a year with the team, like Martin did. POJ never looked good with Letang either to be honest.
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I hope so. My thing about POJ is I would take him at 950k over Gryz at 2.75. Plus we could have been paid a 3rd from OTT to take his brother and had Mathieu Joseph for under 3 million instead of Hayes at 3.1. Probably eliminates the Beau signing too. Thats almost 3.5 million in cap space.
 
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HandshakeLine said:
Why ask the players for anything though? Players don't know shit.
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I think that the point was POJ or any other UFA defensemen that has had success playing with players.

I am not happy with Graves contract or play currently. . I understand why it was done.

Zirakzigil said:
I wonder if Graves will bounce back after a year with the team, like Martin did. POJ never looked good with Letang either to be honest.
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I hope so for us he needs it.
 
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