Line Combos: Pens 2022-2023 Training Camp thread: Its happenings

[Fordy]

heinen drew the lucky straw, that's why he isn't playing. it's not complicated

 

[DesertPenguin]

It could be that, or maybe they just really wanted Archibald on WBS and figured the one-way deal (plus a little extra cash) would help him slide through waivers more easily.

WBS needs veteran forwards, too.

Wasn't everyone infuriated when Kahun was traded away?

 

[DesertPenguin]

He went to Princeton. I wish intelligence translated to hockey more. Could use the help in the bottom 6.

Craig Adams was one of the smartest on the team though.

The Ivy League overlooks the admissions standards for athletics just like every other Div I school, and hockey is the biggest sport at most of the Ivys. I had to camp out for three days to get season tickets, it's a big draw. Even at Princeton there are easy majors, relatively anyway, that an athlete can stay above water in. I wouldn't read to much into a Princeton graduate being any smarter than your average player.

 

[Flying Dego]

Hockey IQ.... Yeah, as if his isn't higher than Kap or Zuck's. Kap basically just runs straight lines and curls back at the first sign of adversity.
If his speed doesn't give him the space he is clueless on how to proceed.

I believe you and some others are a bit blinded by a big year for Heinen last year. Does he actually have a higher IQ than Zucker? There was mention of Heinen doing everything but finishing a bit more for the top 6. That's great but he did have a career high shooting % so the likelihood of him replicating is low. To top that off he hit what 33 points in a near full season?

Zucker is a much better player that's been cursed by injury these past two years. People forget how good he was and its a shame...I mean I rag on him as well but he's always a positive corsi guy that's had some pretty decent scoring years.

Every year Zucker has played 60 or more games he's hit 20+ goals (5 total). Heinens never hit 20.

Zucker is faster, a better forechecker and net presence. I just don't see how anyone can advocate for Heinen getting first crack at top 6 wing before healthy Zucker...well I do but you have to step back and look objectively to see it. I assume Sullivan will do this.

Don't get me wrong Heinen is a nice tweener wing to have as a 3rd liner. If Zucker can't stay healthy than you have an option.

 

[Peat]

Remember once reading on Jack Han's blog a post that everyday IQ, academic IQ, is actually sometimes a hinderance to athletes as bright creative kids are more likely to get bored with those repetitive drills quicker. No relevance to anything really, just a passing thought.

 

[Gurglesons]

Remember once reading on Jack Han's blog a post that everyday IQ, academic IQ, is actually sometimes a hinderance to athletes as bright creative kids are more likely to get bored with those repetitive drills quicker. No relevance to anything really, just a passing thought.

Isn't it always said that the most successful athletes "embrace the boring"?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I believe you and some others are a bit blinded by a big year for Heinen last year. Does he actually have a higher IQ than Zucker? There was mention of Heinen doing everything but finishing a bit more for the top 6. That'd great but he did have a career high shooting % so the likelihood of him replicating is low. To top that off he hit what 33 points in a near season?

His career best is 15.8%. Last year was 13%. Yes, his average is 10.7% but he wasn't way off. It's possible he replicates it or comes close.
Also it was a career low shooting % when with Malkin.

Yes he has a higher IQ than Zucker pretty clearly IMO. Zucker produces points more through physicality. That can mean speed, shot power, driving the net, or battles in the crease. His passing is very poor, as is his offensive awareness.

Heinen's smarter. He reads his linemates and defenders intentions better. Instead of busting his ass on the walls as hard as Zucker does, he makes subtle smart decisions like cutting off zone exits and standing in the right places for the puck to squirt out. He checks his linemates positioning before getting into the corners. He is capable of hanging onto pucks when his linemates call for it when he identifies those situations as bad timing.
It's the little things like that adds up to good possession numbers and better high danger chance rates.

Zucker clearly just plays a highly reactionary style all over the ice. When he gets the puck this panic settles in, because he wasn't thinking a step ahead of what to do when he gets it.
There were multiple instances of this even in this pre-season game. Zucker got odd-man rushes with the puck on his stick and he didn't have a plan, so he choked and allowed the defensemen to shut him down.
Heinen isn't like that. He thinks. He will see the space closing ahead of time and try to make an adjustment.

Like ask yourself, why has Zucker always struggled with Malkin? People say "lack of chemistry", but how does that present itself?
He can't read Malkin. He doesn't know what adjustments to make to adapt to his playstyle. He can't give him appropriate passes on the walls. Maybe worst of all, he responds to Malkin calling for the puck by forcing passes to him every time. This is a problem, because Malkin calls for the puck on every shift basically.
When Kap had success with Malkin in year 1 he ignored him when things looked dicey. Guentzel and Rust did the same thing.

You say Zucker's a better forechecker. How so? Because he skates faster and hits harder? I thought the goal was to win the puck back? More ways to do that than just physicality. You can use your brain, the same way Malkin does when he's pick pocketing guys his whole career.
Heinen had 36 takeaways in 76 games last year. Zucker had 15 in 41 games. Meh. Not seeing this forechecking prowess of Zucker's.
Zucker had 22 giveaways in 41 games. Heinen had 24 in 76 games.

I just don't see how anyone can advocate for Heinen getting first crack at top 6 wing before healthy Zucker

What have you ever seen between Zucker and Malkin that suggests he's the best choice there of the 3 guys? They get caved in analytically.
The line stat tool on NST isn't working right now but it's bad.
When Heinen was with Malkin they like broke even on goals despite really bad finishing. The corsi was up and so were the chance counts.
If Heinen just hit the f***ing open net a few times then no one would complain about him. But here we are.

The whole health excuse is such bs. Zucker doesn't understand what to do. Simple as that.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't think we've ever seen a healthy Malkin and Zucker together and the closest we've gotten is in the playoffs where they've done good work.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I don't think we've ever seen a healthy Malkin and Zucker together and the closest we've gotten is in the playoffs where they've done good work.

Their lack of cohesion is not because of health.
They are not on the same wavelength mentally. They are not reading each other's intentions.
For Zucker to succeed there he needs to make a lot more selfish, simple plays and drive the net like on that game winner, and/or develop chemistry with the other winger and generate points that way.

I don't think Malkin and him are magically gonna learn to pass to each other and anticipate each other's movements better just because their legs are more functional.

 

[HandshakeLine]

The Ivy League overlooks the admissions standards for athletics just like every other Div I school, and hockey is the biggest sport at most of the Ivys. I had to camp out for three days to get season tickets, it's a big draw. Even at Princeton there are easy majors, relatively anyway, that an athlete can stay above water in. I wouldn't read to much into a Princeton graduate being any smarter than your average player.

Agreed. If anyone thinks being in an Ivy gives you magical smart brains or is even a measure of intelligence, well....

...I went one of the top ranked US universities. And I post things like this:

 

[TheGoldenJet]

I don't think we've ever seen a healthy Malkin and Zucker together and the closest we've gotten is in the playoffs where they've done good work.

Malkin and Zucker are like oil and water. They were brutal together in the bubble playoffs, even with Rust on the other wing.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

Malkin and Zucker are like oil and water. They were brutal together in the bubble playoffs, even with Rust on the other wing.

The sample size with Malkin and Zucker is so small, sure you can make some baseless conclusions but to throw a much lesser player in top 6 guy and have a much better player to take a backseat is silly.

Oil an water is overblown just as many of the signings that come in here when posters overreact, very much a platform for overaction here

If you want to talk about Zuckers inability to stay healthy sure that's been an issue not to mention both Zuckers and Malkins ability to stay healthy at the same time.

Jason Zucker is clearly a better hockey player than Danton Heinen.

 

[Flying Dego]

His career best is 15.8%. Last year was 13%. Yes, his average is 10.7% but he wasn't way off. It's possible he replicates it or comes close.
Also it was a career low shooting % when with Malkin.

Yes he has a higher IQ than Zucker pretty clearly IMO. Zucker produces points more through physicality. That can mean speed, shot power, driving the net, or battles in the crease. His passing is very poor, as is his offensive awareness.

Heinen's smarter. He reads his linemates and defenders intentions better. Instead of busting his ass on the walls as hard as Zucker does, he makes subtle smart decisions like cutting off zone exits and standing in the right places for the puck to squirt out. He checks his linemates positioning before getting into the corners. He is capable of hanging onto pucks when his linemates call for it when he identifies those situations as bad timing.
It's the little things like that adds up to good possession numbers and better high danger chance rates.

Zucker clearly just plays a highly reactionary style all over the ice. When he gets the puck this panic settles in, because he wasn't thinking a step ahead of what to do when he gets it.
There were multiple instances of this even in this pre-season game. Zucker got odd-man rushes with the puck on his stick and he didn't have a plan, so he choked and allowed the defensemen to shut him down.
Heinen isn't like that. He thinks. He will see the space closing ahead of time and try to make an adjustment.

Like ask yourself, why has Zucker always struggled with Malkin? People say "lack of chemistry", but how does that present itself?
He can't read Malkin. He doesn't know what adjustments to make to adapt to his playstyle. He can't give him appropriate passes on the walls. Maybe worst of all, he responds to Malkin calling for the puck by forcing passes to him every time. This is a problem, because Malkin calls for the puck on every shift basically.
When Kap had success with Malkin in year 1 he ignored him when things looked dicey. Guentzel and Rust did the same thing.

You say Zucker's a better forechecker. How so? Because he skates faster and hits harder? I thought the goal was to win the puck back? More ways to do that than just physicality. You can use your brain, the same way Malkin does when he's pick pocketing guys his whole career.
Heinen had 36 takeaways in 76 games last year. Zucker had 15 in 41 games. Meh. Not seeing this forechecking prowess of Zucker's.
Zucker had 22 giveaways in 41 games. Heinen had 24 in 76 games.

I'll be honest I'm tired and lazy to go stat hunting but here's the skinny. Zucker, if he can he healthy, has shown to be a top 6 wing. Heinen at his utmost peak is still underwhelming. Can he work? Maybe so.

We again have not seen Zucker healthy and a chance to get rhythm here. Does he actually not work with Geno? Let's see with both coming off actual offseasons and feeling healthy.

I just caution putting stock into a guy like Heinen over Zucker. If GMs felt how you talk about him he'd have gotten a nice multi year deal. He's just not anything special.

Great depth piece with ability to slide up when needed. That's it.

Zucker has the higher ceiling and a playoff style brand that could reap major dividends. If he blows? Then drop him down, don't also mistake me for one that'll allow him to just flub it up. If he can't regain his form I have no attachment.

Now Big Z...there's a lad with 3rd wheel zest for Geno

 

[Pens x]

It’s almost like we need another top 6 winger. We are in trouble if Heinen or Zucker are in our top six unless Zucker is finally healthy, which would be unusual.

Until you find that fourth winger for the top six, you have to separate Jake and Rust for Geno’s sake.

 

[Flying Dego]

Question: would the world implode if both Sid and Geno played 75+ games?

 

[HandshakeLine]

Question: would the world implode if both Sid and Geno played 75+ games?

No, but a seasoned ticket holder would probably cry.

 

[Flying Dego]

No, but a seasoned ticket holder would probably cry.

My goodness if Geno has a healthy year and puts up points...our poor resident STH

 

[Andy99]

HockeyBuzz.com - Ryan Wilson - If you're going to play all the stars, learn something new

hockeybuzz.com

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I'll be honest I'm tired and lazy to go stat hunting but here's the skinny. Zucker, if he can he healthy, has shown to be a top 6 wing. Heinen at his utmost peak is still underwhelming. Can he work? Maybe so.

We again have not seen Zucker healthy and a chance to get rhythm here. Does he actually not work with Geno? Let's see with both coming off actual offseasons and feeling healthy.

I just caution putting stock into a guy like Heinen over Zucker. If GMs felt how you talk about him he'd have gotten a nice multi year deal. He's just not anything special.

Great depth piece with ability to slide up when needed. That's it.

Zucker has the higher ceiling and a playoff style brand that could reap major dividends. If he blows? Then drop him down, don't also mistake me for one that'll allow him to just flub it up. If he can't regain his form I have no attachment.

Now Big Z...there's a lad with 3rd wheel zest for Geno

H did get offers. One was from Winnipeg. He turned them down to stay here, in a situation he feels good in. He's betting on himself this year to get a lucrative deal next year, just like Petts did.

You guys are forgetting the age gap here. Zk's played 200 more games. That's more time and more years with favorable situations to produce.
That ceiling you're talking about with him was on PP1 and top 6 for years, playing with linemates he meshes with.
Here he plays with Malkin or Carter, is on PP2 and will continue to do so. So hoping for his ceiling seems more than a little optimistic.

Zk's career 5v5 P/P60: 1.74
H's career 5v5 P/P60: 1.67

They really aren't that different lol. And that's with H playing with worse players on average. There is no clear division between one being a top 6 lock and one being a third liner, especially when you consider fit and all round game.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

 

[Gurglesons]

We actually getting our dream line 1?

Also so Heinen just goes in for Z eh?

 

[Andy99]

Zucker and Rust has always been horrible winger pair since they are too similar players…not enough complimentary skills…I hope Sullivan is not going to go with this in the RS

 

[Peat]

We actually getting our dream line 1?

Also so Heinen just goes in for Z eh?

I dunno about that fam. It looks to me like they've got the entire ideal line 3 missing - Heinen Carter Kapanen - which maybe suggests Zohorna has the inside track to be with Blueger out of those 4 guys, with the O'Connor-Poehling-Caggiula line fighting to make it.


Also I refuse to get any hope from that top six configuration.

 

[The Old Master]

Kapanen 5000 shots = zero goals all you need to know about .. The guy is flying around everywhere all over the ice..

play him with a net front guy that can get the rebounds. but then that would need a coach.

 

[SEALBound]

Remember once reading on Jack Han's blog a post that everyday IQ, academic IQ, is actually sometimes a hinderance to athletes as bright creative kids are more likely to get bored with those repetitive drills quicker. No relevance to anything really, just a passing thought.

IQ tests measure one's innate ability to recognize patterns and then react. Academic IQ would point more toward information retention and the ability to carry out learned processes. So, you're right in that they are different. You can have "dumb" people with high IQs but it's all relevant. If we think about it though, when we talk about "hockey IQ" aren't we just talking about a player's ability to read into a play, see patterns, and be able to determine where they should go to give themselves the best possible chance to score? Pattern recognition and reaction. We talk about it a lot in really good players - how they "think the game" and that usually isn't dependent on them knowing about Christopher Columbus, photosynthesis, and what onomatopoeia is.

I think that's your "starting lineup" (add Zucker-Carter-Kapanen). I think that 4th line is "who gets to be 13F".