Line Combos: Pens 2022-2023 Training Camp thread: Its happenings

[CheckingLineCenter]

L1 Rakell sighting

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I dunno about that fam. It looks to me like they've got the entire ideal line 3 missing - Heinen Carter Kapanen - which maybe suggests Zohorna has the inside track to be with Blueger out of those 4 guys, with the O'Connor-Poehling-Caggiula line fighting to make it.


Also I refuse to get any hope from that top six configuration.

So we're on the Z path to glory timeline? Didn't see that coming.
I'm here for it though.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Z’s GF stats are such an outlier I’d be pretty surprised if Sullivan didn’t know them.

I feel like given those lines they want him in there. But he’s gotta earn it for sure.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I think that's your "starting lineup" (add Zucker-Carter-Kapanen). I think that 4th line is "who gets to be 13F".

Yeah pretty much, except H is Sully's LW3 default guy imo.
The reasoning is probably that since Carter's shelved they can scrap the whole line for today and make space for the battle for 12+13F.

 

[Peat]

What have you ever seen between Zucker and Malkin that suggests he's the best choice there of the 3 guys? They get caved in analytically.

Best performing offensive pairing for Geno last season. Didn't get caved in analytically, should have been break even. Hugely dominant performance vs Montral analytically speaking in the 19-20 playoffs.

Coincidentally, those are the two times Zucker has played with a Malkin who didn't have skating issues.

I dunno how optimistic I want to be about the pairing, but there's clear analytical evidence for thinking the pair can really work if Geno can skate.

People will point to lack of reads, lack of cohesion.... tbh, I'm not sure that's needed for guys to be a good line. I've seen Geno post some great results with some real tunnel vision players. Early Rust is a good example, ditto Hornqvist. What those sort of guys have that works with Geno - dirty area play, possession play, raw speed - Zucker has. And whatever offensive IQ flaws Zucker may have, it's not stopped him from putting up a bunch of points at times.

I dunno whether it's going to work... but I 100% agree with Flying Dego it's got the highest ceiling. Zucker is a better net front player and his speed opens up the ice more. Heinen doesn't have any distinct weaknesses imo, but I don't see many strengths either. He's done well with Geno, but I think there's a ceiling on what he can do and it's lower than Zucker's. So I'm happy this is where we're starting.

(Also back when Sznajder's individually tracked microstats were more available, Zucker's forechecking numbers were great - ton of pressure, plenty of recoveries - don't think takeaways measures that well at all, because that involves taking the puck off of a guy with possession, and there's plenty of forechecks where they guy never really has possession, or makes a bad play instead because of possession).

Zucker and Rust has always been horrible winger pair since they are too similar players…not enough complimentary skills…I hope Sullivan is not going to go with this in the RS

We have 115 minutes of them with Geno from three regular seasons, which shows them as a plus possession line that can score - despite this primarily coming from Geno's worst recent season for personal fitness - and 36 minutes in the post-season, where they were dominant possession wise but just couldn't score. It's not really a big enough sample to say anything definitive about them, but there's hints it can work.

I also think that the players they are now, there's a lot more compliment. Rust has become a lot more of a from distance finisher, has a lot more vision. He goes to the blue paint less, which Zucker does well.

So we're on the Z path to glory timeline? Didn't see that coming.
I'm here for it though.

Maybe. Depends on how they feel about Archibald. Depends what happens in the next few games, who gets injured... but I think it's a plausible explanation of what's going on.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Jason Zucker is clearly a better hockey player than Danton Heinen.

This I agree with. Not sure he will magically find chemistry with Malkin when there was none there before, but Zucker is better than Heinen.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah, not sure why people are acting like Heinen is some solid top six guy. He's a top nine tweener who has shown he can be successful with elite talent in two different markets. He's useful, but Zucker is at another level throughout his career.

I do like Heinen - Carter - Kapanen as a retread of the MoJo - Coyle - Heinen line that had a a lot of success for Boston in the 2019 playoff run though.

 

[SEALBound]

Yeah pretty much, except H is Sully's LW3 default guy imo.
The reasoning is probably that since Carter's shelved they can scrap the whole line for today and make space for the battle for 12+13F.

I meant Heinen-Carter-Kapanen, not Zucker.

Jake-Sid-Rakell
Zucker-Malkin-Rust
Heinen-Carter-Kapanen
Zohorna-Bleuger-McGinn
Poehling

Dumo-Letang
Petts-Petry
XXXX-Rutta

Still don't know about 3LD. I think that will be based on pre-season performance and I wouldn't be surprised if opening night it's Freidman-Rudwedel with POJ a scratch and Smith in WBS.

Yeah, not sure why people are acting like Heinen is some solid top six guy. He's a top nine tweener who has shown he can be successful with elite talent in two different markets. He's useful, but Zucker is at another level throughout his career.

Agreed which is why Zucker makes $5.5mil (and is worth about $3mil) and Heinen got a 1x1.

Heinen could easily "break out" just like ERod did. 17g while being up and down the lineup (quite literally) is nothing to shake a stick at so I'm actually fairly glad we brought him back. Better than being forced to used McGinn somewhere.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Best performing offensive pairing for Geno last season. Didn't get caved in analytically, should have been break even.

They played around 57 minutes together last year. Equivalent of 4+ games let's say? Multiple instances of adrenaline driven injury returns to the lineup.
I'm gonna need way more than this before I get on board.
4GF - 5GA
55-53 CF vs CA.
My only hope with this combo is JZ finds something with Rakell, who is a malleable linemate. That's the X-factor.

People will point to lack of reads, lack of cohesion.... tbh, I'm not sure that's needed for guys to be a good line. I've seen Geno post some great results with some real tunnel vision players. Early Rust is a good example, ditto Hornqvist. What those sort of guys have that works with Geno - dirty area play, possession play, raw speed - Zucker has. And whatever offensive IQ flaws Zucker may have, it's not stopped him from putting up a bunch of points at times.

Yes there is a way to success, like I mentioned before. JZ would need to alter his playstyle to be more selfish, simple and straight line. I just don't expect him to make the necessary adjustments. He only plays this way when he gets pissed off after a long, difficult night, much like in the pre-season game after being wasteful all night. He even talked about this frustration post-game.

(Also back when Sznajder's individually tracked microstats were more available, Zucker's forechecking numbers were great - ton of pressure, plenty of recoveries - don't think takeaways measures that well at all, because that involves taking the puck off of a guy with possession, and there's plenty of forechecks where they guy never really has possession, or makes a bad play instead because of possession).

Yeah I may have been a little harsh with the forechecking. Impaired skating is a big factor. Maybe he can get back to better numbers this year if his legs remain in good condition. Massive if though.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The Penguins are certainly using Zohorna like they like him, so that's really encouraging. He's also the center on the 2nd PP unit, although that's only due to Carter's injury.

I'd be willing to bet that their opening day lineup will probably be those top-3 lines with Heinen-Carter-Kapanen as the other forward line and Poehling as the extra.

Also I refuse to get any hope from that top six configuration.

Is that because you don't like it or because you really like it and don't want to be disappointed?

 

[SomeDude]

When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars
This is the dawning of the age of Zohorna
Age of Zohorna

 

[Empoleon8771]

I guess it's also worth wondering if the Penguins would try to slip Poehling and POJ through waivers and let them play big minutes in WBS. I think both would very likely be claimed, but there's also a very real chance that I'm just ignorant of the waiver eligible Poehling and POJ caliber players other teams have.

 

[Flying Dego]

If Sullivan opens the year with
GCRR
Zucker-G-Rust
Heinen-Carter-Kap
Big Z-Blue-McGinn
Poehling

I'll fully endorse Sullys lifetime contract.

People can try to downplay Big Z but he's a force that causes turnovers regularly with position flexibility. I'll be ecstatic if Sully is rolling this.

 

[K Fleur]

Zohorna is too young to play here.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Still don't know about 3LD. I think that will be based on pre-season performance and I wouldn't be surprised if opening night it's Freidman-Rudwedel with POJ a scratch and Smith in WBS.

Agreed. I'm close to giving up on POJ making it. Smith would need to knock the door down for them to ignore waiver eligibility and he didn't in game 1.
If it's Ruhwedel I won't be mad at all. May even be our best option, since he was pretty good for most of last year.

 

[Peat]

They played around 57 minutes together last year. Equivalent of 4+ games let's say? Multiple instances of adrenaline driven injury returns to the lineup.
I'm gonna need way more than this before I get on board.
4GF - 5GA
55-53 CF vs CA.
My only hope with this combo is JZ finds something with Rakell, who is a malleable linemate. That's the X-factor.

I agree it's a tiny sample but it's still the biggest sample we've got of Zucker with a fit Malkin. Which personally says it all about how much judgment we should make about them.

But it's also a positive sample. The defence can be improved more easily than the offence can. If we're talking about whether there's any signs they can play together, it exists.

Yes there is a way to success, like I mentioned before. JZ would need to alter his playstyle to be more selfish, simple and straight line. I just don't expect him to make the necessary adjustments. He only plays this way when he gets pissed off after a long, difficult night, much like in the pre-season game after being wasteful all night. He even talked about this frustration post-game.

Well, we'll see if that happens.

Yeah I may have been a little harsh with the forechecking. Impaired skating is a big factor. Maybe he can get back to better numbers this year if his legs remain in good condition. Massive if though.

Has anyone published Zucker's forechecking numbers for last year?

 

[Peat]

Is that because you don't like it or because you really like it and don't want to be disappointed?

The latter. They are the screamingly obvious lines to me with huge potential. They take off like they've shown they can and fitness is for once kind to use, they're going to cause a ton of damage.

I guess it's also worth wondering if the Penguins would try to slip Poehling and POJ through waivers and let them play big minutes in WBS. I think both would very likely be claimed, but there's also a very real chance that I'm just ignorant of the waiver eligible Poehling and POJ caliber players other teams have.

Given how reluctant teams are to expose former 1st round picks at this stage of their development, I wouldn't expect many of the other waiver eligible Poehlings and POJs to get exposed. Stating the obvious I know but...

 

[AuroraBorealis]

But it's also a positive sample. The defence can be improved more easily than the offence can. If we're talking about whether there's any signs they can play together, it exists.

The defense and possession would improve with Rakell being the other winger. So that's realistic at least.

Has anyone published Zucker's forechecking numbers for last year?

Not in depth. His takeaway count was pretty bleh compared to the rest of his career though.

At his peak he had 54 in 82 games. Last year 15 in 41 games.
Heinen was much better in this regard, along with being way more responsible with the giveaways.

 

[Zirakzigil]

GDT up:

GDT: - | Preseason Game #3 | Pens vs Wings | 1900hrs EST | The one where we ice our starting line up

Following Sunday's split-squad games against the Columbus Blue Jackets, the Penguins return to PPG Paints Arena to host the Detroit Red Wings on Tuesday, September 27 at 7:00 PM. Doors to the arena will open at 6:00 PM. Last season, the Penguins went 2-0-1 against Detroit, which gives Pittsburgh...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Flying Dego]

So we're on the Z path to glory timeline? Didn't see that coming.
I'm here for it though.

I will take full credit for being his #1 driving supporter..

As long as the Z you're referring to is of the 6'6 variety.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars
This is the dawning of the age of Zohorna
Age of Zohorna

Mars has to be in gatorade too

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Pffft. Look at you guys. Trying to infer things from a preseason game. Talking about hockey on a hockey message board.

Not like me. I maintain the calm demeanor of an outside observer. I am very cool and original.

 

[Flying Dego]

Pffft. Look at you guys. Trying to infer things from a preseason game. Talking about hockey on a hockey message board.

Not like me. I maintain the calm demeanor of an outside observer. I am very cool and original.

Join the cult of Zohorna

 

[SEALBound]

If Zohorna was 5'6 and providing the exact same performance, no one would be breathing a word about him. In fact, most would be actively hating him.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Given how reluctant teams are to expose former 1st round picks at this stage of their development, I wouldn't expect many of the other waiver eligible Poehlings and POJs to get exposed. Stating the obvious I know but...

Honestly, I'm just not sure. It sounds like Valimaki is another former 1st rounder who may end up on waivers as well.

It wouldn't surprise me if POJ went the Cholowski route from last year. Cholowski was waived by Seattle, claimed by Washington (low in the priority) and then waived by Washington a few months later. No one else claimed him, so Seattle got him back and was able to send him to the AHL.