Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: We suck again summer edition

[Empoleon8771]

I think the bigger problem with Hellebuyck is that he wants to win and I seriously doubt he'd want to re-sign with the Penguins considering the age and years remaining of their core.

Why would Hellebuyck sign his retirement deal with the Penguins over someone like Buffalo, who looks to be on the upswing and he would be a major difference maker for that team?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It does.

This is Sid's team. You need his buy in. If you don't have his buy in, there'll be no success for the team. You can't just order him around. Sid is no primadonna by star player standards but even so, he's going to have his beliefs about how he's best used and he's going to win the argument most times because the coach can't win it unless Sid lets him.

Whatever the PP fix is, it needs to involve catering to the egos of Sid, Geno and probably Tanger too or it's not going to work. That simple. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it is a thing. You don't sail a boat directly into the wind and you don't try winning fights with star players. You can probably get away with getting them to restructure themselves around a Kessel-level talent, but Granlund isn't that.

Plus again... they've acquiesced to this before. Hell I think just about every season for years barring this past one they have split the units only for things to look even worse. Nobody talks about that for some reason because it doesn't follow the "the stars bully the poor coaches into everything" narrative but it's absolutely been a thing multiple times over multiple years. And it didn't actually fix diddly.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think the bigger problem with Hellebuyck is that he wants to win and I seriously doubt he'd want to re-sign with the Penguins considering the age and years remaining of their core.

Why would Hellebuyck sign his retirement deal with the Penguins over someone like Buffalo, who looks to be on the upswing and he would be a major difference maker for that team?

Yeah, Buffalo or Ottawa seem like prime teams to make a huge run at Hellebuyck.

-edit- LA too, but I dunno. I think they'll be in the running for a few bigger names.

 

[SEALBound]

In a vacuum, Hellebuyck is the best overall choice for us but looking at all goaltender options, it just comes down to price.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

It does.

This is Sid's team. You need his buy in. If you don't have his buy in, there'll be no success for the team. You can't just order him around. Sid is no primadonna by star player standards but even so, he's going to have his beliefs about how he's best used and he's going to win the argument most times because the coach can't win it unless Sid lets him.

Whatever the PP fix is, it needs to involve catering to the egos of Sid, Geno and probably Tanger too or it's not going to work. That simple. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it is a thing. You don't sail a boat directly into the wind and you don't try winning fights with star players. You can probably get away with getting them to restructure themselves around a Kessel-level talent, but Granlund isn't that.

He'd follow orders without complaint, and he'd try hard just the same. And I don't think a hockey prodigy like Sid would be blind to what he can offer as a net-front.

He's got the eye-hand, the timing, the awareness, the strength and the balance.
He would score more PPGs there for sure.

The problem here isn't Sid's ego. It's how the coaches make decisions based on his input, out of abundance of respect. He's not asking them to bend over like that. They just line up to do so.
They should try just making optimal decisions based on what they're actually seeing live, in film and stats. He will respect their decision.

 

[Peat]

Plus again... they've acquiesced to this before. Hell I think just about every season for years barring this past one they have split the units only for things to look even worse. Nobody talks about that for some reason because it doesn't follow the "the stars bully the poor coaches into everything" narrative but it's absolutely been a thing multiple times over multiple years. And it didn't actually fix diddly.

Right. Although tbf, I don't think we're talking splitting the stars, more moving them into the positions they don't want to be in.

He'd follow orders without complaint, and he'd try hard just the same. And I don't think a hockey prodigy like Sid would be blind to what he can offer as a net-front.

He's got the eye-hand, the timing, the awareness, the strength and the balance.
He would score more PPGs there for sure.

The problem here isn't Sid's ego. It's how the coaches make decisions based on his input, out of abundance of respect. He's not asking them to bend over like that. They just line up to do so.
They should try just making optimal decisions based on what they're actually seeing live, in film and stats. He will respect their decision.

Tell that to Phil Kessel or Patric Hornqvist, guys who did good work on Sid's RW but who didn't fit how he enjoyed to play. And the coach absolutely loved putting Hornqvist on Sid's wing until all of a sudden he didn't, despite it still working.

And once you work with the knowledge that Sid is willing to put his foot down about linemates, there is a very simple answer as to why a guy with fantastic net front traits pretty much doesn't play it. It's he doesn't want to.



Incidentally, I just watched a highlights video of every Forsberg goal from 21-22, figuring that's probably the best way to get a quick sample of Granlund's playmaking from his best recent season. Obviously truncated highlights so you don't see everything but he does next to nothing meaningful on the power play umbrella.

He does make a lot of good plays low down. The sort of bang-bang plays that Sid loves. If Granlund had the sort of battle game Sid loves as well, then I think that would be a super obvious pairing (albeit kinda unnecessary when Sid does well with most of our wings). But I suspect he's aged out of that, if he ever had it. And that's oil to Texas as an addition to our power play.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Sid, Geno and Letang are like 36 years old and have been in the league doing their thing for nearly two decades. They're gonna keep doing their thing because it's made them wildly successful and gotten them three Cups (and made a whole lot of players, coaches and GMs a whole lot of money in the process).

Nobody's gonna come in and dramatically alter the way any of the three of them approaches the game, at ES or on the PP. Out of respect, a desire to keep the team's best players and franchise icons comfortable, and because it'd be a fruitless endeavor at this stage of their careers.

Sid's the consummate professional, but it's foolish to act like he's not emotional as shit on the ice and ego-driven just the same. Sid+Hornqvist was dynamite as a line combo and Sid didn't like Hornqvist's inability to make plays with the puck or Hornqvist's pretty awful skating, so they spent less and less time together until Hornqvist was eventually dealt. I don't agree with the bullshit theory that Sid's in the GM or coach's ear telling them what to do and dictating things, but part of being a coach is managing egos and not putting your star players in spots that will potentially annoy them. Sid's as much of a competitor as anyone, but we're pissing in the wind if we're pretending there aren't nights where Sid's coasting out there and kinda checked out.

 

[Pancakes]

I think the bigger problem with Hellebuyck is that he wants to win and I seriously doubt he'd want to re-sign with the Penguins considering the age and years remaining of their core.

Why would Hellebuyck sign his retirement deal with the Penguins over someone like Buffalo, who looks to be on the upswing and he would be a major difference maker for that team?

If Hellebuyck comes here and the Pens have a successful season, he'd probably consider re-signing.

I don't think NHL players have the same outlook on the league as we do. Hell look at Zucker. Absolutely raving about how much he wants to re-sign here but also mentioned that winning a cup is important for him.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Right. Although tbf, I don't think we're talking splitting the stars, more moving them into the positions they don't want to be in.

True enough. Although one of the three sure doesn't seem to mind, at least.

Which I suppose is why he's the only one of them that has migrated all over the ice on the powerplay throughout the years. Honestly a bit frustrating at times... considering he's the most "natural" of the core on the man advantage.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If Hellebuyck comes here and the Pens have a successful season, he'd probably consider re-signing.

I don't think NHL players have the same outlook on the league as we do. Hell look at Zucker. Absolutely raving about how much he wants to re-sign here but also mentioned that winning a cup is important for him.

I don't think it's just a "fan outlook" to say that Hellebuyck wouldn't want to sign a retirement deal with a team that has a core that will be retiring 2 years into his next deal. Even Dubas has noted that the Penguins are going to go through a rebuild/retool era after the Crosby and Malkin era are done.

You might be able to get Hellebuyck to sign a short term deal, but I think the chances of him signing a long term deal with the Penguins would be incredibly low. Especially considering that I don't think the Penguins would want to trade for him without getting that commitment up front.

 

[Pancakes]

I don't think it's just a "fan outlook" to say that Hellebuyck wouldn't want to sign a retirement deal with a team that has a core that will be retiring 2 years into his next deal. Even Dubas has noted that the Penguins are going to go through a rebuild/retool era after the Crosby and Malkin era are done.

You might be able to get Hellebuyck to sign a short term deal, but I think the chances of him signing a long term deal with the Penguins would be incredibly low.

If he re-signed for 3-4 years that'd be enough for me to be comfortable with whatever assets we paid to get him.

 

[Peat]

If he re-signed for 3-4 years that'd be enough for me to be comfortable with whatever assets we paid to get him.

You pretty much never see guys with his age and reputation sign for 3-4 years though.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Hellebuyck just turned 30 like a month ago. There's no way he's gonna sign anything shorter than like a five year deal, imo. This is his last big contract, and he's gonna want as much security as he can get in the best spot he can to give him a legit shot at the Cup.

This team's got maybe two years left if they have any years left at all. Even if they threw the kitchen sink at acquiring Hellebuyck, I don't see a reason he'd want to stick around. Just makes zero sense to me from any angle; the Pens' or Hellebuyck's.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I don't think it's just a "fan outlook" to say that Hellebuyck wouldn't want to sign a retirement deal with a team that has a core that will be retiring 2 years into his next deal. Even Dubas has noted that the Penguins are going to go through a rebuild/retool era after the Crosby and Malkin era are done.

You might be able to get Hellebuyck to sign a short term deal, but I think the chances of him signing a long term deal with the Penguins would be incredibly low. Especially considering that I don't think the Penguins would want to trade for him without getting that commitment up front.

If he re-signed for 3-4 years that'd be enough for me to be comfortable with whatever assets we paid to get him.

If permission to chat about next contract and future would be allowed.

An open discussion of trading him after 3 years possibly retained at 50% to another team. Giving him a NTC with let's say 24 teams and saying thank you.

I do suppose players may want to settle roots but if he's open for 2 or 3 years of go for it and afterwards get traded that may peak his interest.

 

[Empoleon8771]

As unpopular of an opinion as it is among Penguins fans, I have really come around to the idea that the best option with the goalies is to just re-sign Jarry and bring in a big upgrade on DeSmith. Same exact thing the Penguins did in 2012 when they brought in Vokoun to be Fleury's backup after the Flyers series.

It's not that I want to keep Jarry but there really aren't many good options out there right now.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The team definitely needs a new starter, at least. Preferably a new tandem.

But I'm really starting to lean into the idea of trying for a badass LD as top priority and going from there. Feel like the potential team impact far bigger.

And no I don't have any ideas. I'm not an ideas guy. I'm a "make a lot of noise until someone smarter than you comes up with a good suggestion" guy.

 

[Pancakes]

You pretty much never see guys with his age and reputation sign for 3-4 years though.

He probably would want to sign for longer, true.

I don't think he'd be difficult to re-sign. We're not the Coyotes. Guys who get traded to reasonably good teams generally do re-sign there unless they're blatantly brought over as rentals.

As unpopular of an opinion as it is among Penguins fans, I have really come around to the idea that the best option with the goalies is to just re-sign Jarry and bring in a big upgrade on DeSmith. Same exact thing the Penguins did in 2012 when they brought in Vokoun to be Fleury's backup after the Flyers series.

It's not that I want to keep Jarry but there really aren't many good options out there right now.

I'd rather do anything but that. The only way I'd be remotely comfortable with that is if Jarry re-signs to a short term contract and I sincerely doubt he would.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Emp's got the gold medal for mental gymnastics on lockdown. Dude can talk himself into and out of, or vice versa, literally any player/roster scenario.

 

[SEALBound]

Tell that to Phil Kessel or Patric Hornqvist, guys who did good work on Sid's RW but who didn't fit how he enjoyed to play. And the coach absolutely loved putting Hornqvist on Sid's wing until all of a sudden he didn't, despite it still working.

Well that's on Sullivan as much as Dubas. Look at 2016 vs 2017.

2016 - Sheary-Sid-Horny for the vast majority of the playoffs. Took while to get the lines figured but they were solid from mid-Caps on.

2017 - Sid had a variety of linemates, including Kunitz, Sheary, Rust, Hornqvist, and Guentzel. It was switched up regularly.

Point being, in 2017 Sullivan not had the options for the top line but there was a willingness to change things up when things got stale. That is something we HAVEN'T seen from Sullivan for several years now. Now just how much influence Sid has on that...who knows. There's some no doubt.

So really, it's a three-man operation that needs to get on the same page:
1. Dubas needs to find and provide capable players.
2. Sullivan needs to get back to being willing to change things up.
3. Sid needs to be open to having new linemates even if they don't play 100% the way he wants.

 

[Gurglesons]

Re-signing Jarry is nightmare fuel

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The team definitely needs a new starter, at least. Preferably a new tandem.

But I'm really starting to lean into the idea of trying for a badass LD as top priority and going from there. Feel like the potential team impact far bigger.

And no I don't have any ideas. I'm not an ideas guy. I'm a "make a lot of noise until someone smarter than you comes up with a good suggestion" guy.

I still think my fantasy land wish is a potent scoring option on Geno's wing. A goalie is probably the biggest need, but a goalie's not gonna make this slopshit team any more fun to watch. Gimme a guy who can put pucks in the net so this team's got two scoring line threats.

An entirely new 3rd line, top-4 LD, scoring line winger, goalie(s), removal of Granlund and Carter, a new coaching staff, new scouting department folks. Pretty long list of issues.

 

[Sideline]

Jarry was maybe an acceptable 1B type guy. If he comes back at 3x3 fine whatever. It sucks, but at least there will be flexibility elsewhere. If he wants 5.5x6 I would rather take a couple flyers on the random free agent goalie pile.

 

[Pancakes]

I still think my fantasy land wish is a potent scoring option on Geno's wing. A goalie is probably the biggest need, but a goalie's not gonna make this slopshit team any more fun to watch. Gimme a guy who can put pucks in the net so this team's got two scoring line threats.

An entirely new 3rd line, top-4 LD, scoring line winger, goalie(s), removal of Granlund and Carter, a new coaching staff, new scouting department folks. Pretty long list of issues.

Dubas hinted at that as an option in his intro presser. Said something to the effect of "Do we need another big piece to help out our top guys".

He might do it.

 

[SEALBound]

As unpopular of an opinion as it is among Penguins fans, I have really come around to the idea that the best option with the goalies is to just re-sign Jarry and bring in a big upgrade on DeSmith. Same exact thing the Penguins did in 2012 when they brought in Vokoun to be Fleury's backup after the Flyers series.

It's not that I want to keep Jarry but there really aren't many good options out there right now.

1A-1B, sure provided Jarry signs in the $2-3mil range.

Jarry in a 6-7yr x $5mil+ role? Absolutely not. I'd rather ask any team for their 3rd-4th stringer for a 6th throughout the year than deal with an albatross contract with Jarry.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I still think my fantasy land wish is a potent scoring option on Geno's wing. A goalie is probably the biggest need, but a goalie's not gonna make this slopshit team any more fun to watch. Gimme a guy who can put pucks in the net so this team's got two scoring line threats.

An entirely new 3rd line, top-4 LD, scoring line winger, goalie(s), removal of Granlund and Carter, a new coaching staff, new scouting department folks. Pretty long list of issues.

I gave up on that. Don't even consider it anymore.