Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: We suck again summer edition

[Sideline]

I gave up on that. Don't even consider it anymore.

I put better odds on Dubas signing Ryan O'Reilly and moving Geno to his wing.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Maybe my valuation is way off, but I think you can probably poach a significant couple of players from Arizona and maybe get them to take Granlund.

Keller's off the table because of cost, but Vejmelka, Crouse, and Schmaltz are all guys who could plug into this team as upgrades and shouldn't cost the sun and moon to acquire, I think. Dangle the 14th overall, Pickering and whatever else isn't nailed down and walk away with something like Vejmelka + Schmaltz or Crouse and you've got a really successful start to the off-season I think.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Maybe my valuation is way off, but I think you can probably poach a significant couple of players from Arizona and maybe get them to take Granlund.

Keller's off the table because of cost, but Vejmelka, Crouse, and Schmaltz are all guys who could plug into this team as upgrades and shouldn't cost the sun and moon to acquire, I think. Dangle the 14th overall, Pickering and whatever else isn't nailed down and walk away with something like Vejmelka + Schmaltz or Crouse and you've got a really successful start to the off-season I think.

Vej + Schmaltz for Pickering, P14ering and Granlund would be awesome.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I put better odds on Dubas signing Ryan O'Reilly and moving Geno to his wing.

I'd almost take that over watching dude set up a couple of middling turds 20 times a game with no actual results.

 

[Andy99]

As unpopular of an opinion as it is among Penguins fans, I have really come around to the idea that the best option with the goalies is to just re-sign Jarry and bring in a big upgrade on DeSmith. Same exact thing the Penguins did in 2012 when they brought in Vokoun to be Fleury's backup after the Flyers series.

It's not that I want to keep Jarry but there really aren't many good options out there right now.

If he wants and is going to get a 6-7 year term, just no thanks…that’s a killer term for anyone who’s not a Vezina caliber goalie…he should be getting 3-4 years..if they sign him, they also need a 1B goalie when he inevitably loses them leads and games…we can’t be paying him a lot because he’ll need a platoon…I don’t think the Pens’ needs and Jarry’s match up and that’s the problem, even if you can convince yourself he’s a league-average goalie who won’t have injury problems in the future…

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I wouldn't even give Jarry a one year, prove it deal.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I guess at least Bob didn't manage to win the Cup this year. And some guy I didn't even know existed until this year did.

That'll hopefully hold the goaltending bonanza this offseason down a bit.

 

[Pancakes]

Given Mike Sullivan's desire for speed I doubt that Dubas is going to be signing many old guys this off season.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Emp's got the gold medal for mental gymnastics on lockdown. Dude can talk himself into and out of, or vice versa, literally any player/roster scenario.

No this website just has a really damn stupid opinion on Jarry.

The gold medal for mental gymnastics comes from fans who would rather not have a starting goalie over overpaying a starting goalie. It's bizarre how people simultaneously say "the future doesn't matter, the team is going to suck when Crosby and Malkin retire anyway" while also saying "we can't re-sign Jarry because his deal could be an albatross in the future".

I wouldn't even give Jarry a one year, prove it deal.

Exhibit A for this website having really stupid opinions on Jarry.

 

[Andy99]

I wouldn't even give Jarry a one year, prove it deal.

Yeah, I’m over him but some people keep trying to convince themselves he’s the best option…there are way better options, even for a platoon goalie system, than him…

 

[Peat]

Well that's on Sullivan as much as Dubas. Look at 2016 vs 2017.

2016 - Sheary-Sid-Horny for the vast majority of the playoffs. Took while to get the lines figured but they were solid from mid-Caps on.

2017 - Sid had a variety of linemates, including Kunitz, Sheary, Rust, Hornqvist, and Guentzel. It was switched up regularly.

Point being, in 2017 Sullivan not had the options for the top line but there was a willingness to change things up when things got stale. That is something we HAVEN'T seen from Sullivan for several years now. Now just how much influence Sid has on that...who knows. There's some no doubt.

So really, it's a three-man operation that needs to get on the same page:
1. Dubas needs to find and provide capable players.
2. Sullivan needs to get back to being willing to change things up.
3. Sid needs to be open to having new linemates even if they don't play 100% the way he wants.

That's a whole different kettle of fish.

I for the most part see no real need to adjust Sid's 5v5 linemate usage from last season. He had two main combinations, both worked, job's a good 'un. We don't need a carousel when the team finally has the horses and fitness to run like that. My point was Sid doesn't always follow orders without complaint, not that we need to get Sid new options for his line because things need shaking up more.

That said, it would be nice if Dubas could provide a team where this isn't a huge chasm between top 6 wingers and bottom 6 wingers in terms of quality.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'm done with Jarry but I still think you guys are fooling yourselves a little in thinking that just swapping out netminders is the silver bullet you're looking for. Have we not learned how team dependent they are? My big issue with Jarry is frankly durability combined with a STILL "incomplete" grade on his post season work. Not because I think he "sucks."

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah, I’m over him but some people keep trying to convince themselves he’s the best options…there are way better options, even for a platoon goalie system, than him…

Who are these better options?

The only clearly better options out there are Hellebuyck, Ullmark/Swayman and possibly Saros. The Penguins don't have the assets for Saros, Hellebuyck likely would only be a 1 year rental and Boston may still find a way to keep both Ullmark and Swayman if Swayman takes a cheap 1 year deal.

The Penguins should move on from Jarry because they need to make changes with their goalies, but making a downgrade for the sake of making a downgrade is also a stupid decision. They should be moving on from Jarry for an upgrade, and if you can't get that upgrade, then re-signing Jarry may be the correct decision.

People have brought up guys like Korpisalo and Varlamov as alternatives, as if Korpisalo didn't have 2 straight seasons below a .900 save% in 2020-2021 and 2021-2022 and Varlamov wasn't just a backup at this point.

 

[Pancakes]

I'm done with Jarry but I still think you guys are fooling yourselves a little in thinking that just swapping out netminders is the silver bullet you're looking for. Have we not learned how team dependent they are? My big issue with Jarry is frankly durability combined with a STILL "incomplete" grade on his post season work. Not because I think he "sucks."

I'm not a change for changes sake kinda guy but I feel like I've seen enough of Jarry to want no part of giving him a big contract.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm done with Jarry but I still think you guys are fooling yourselves a little in thinking that just swapping out netminders is the silver bullet you're looking for. Have we not learned how team dependent they are? My big issue with Jarry is frankly durability combined with a STILL "incomplete" grade on his post season work. Not because I think he "sucks."

Yeah you'd think that Jarry would have had a .875 save% last year based on how people talk about him in here. He'd only be acceptable as a 1B making $2 million to $3 million? He had a .909 save% in 47 games last year.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'm not a change for changes sake kinda guy but I feel like I've seen enough of Jarry to want no part of giving him a big contract.

Absolutely agree.

But I guess I can't help but feel like people are in for some disappointment unless the team changes a LOT about the way they play and how the roster is set up along with the goaltender, himself. I think other netminders could have maybe stolen a few more games last year as Jarry was about as un-clutch as I've ever seen. And hell that would have been the difference between playoffs and no playoffs. But it's still a position that relies a ton on what is going on in front of it.

 

[Pancakes]

Yeah you'd think that Jarry would have had a .875 save% last year based on how people talk about him in here. He'd only be acceptable as a 1B making $2 million to $3 million? He had a .909 save% in 47 games last year.

He was negative 2 in goals saved above expected, which I'd say lines up pretty well with the 909 save %.

It wasn't a bad season, it was just totally mediocre. Not interested in paying out the ass for that and giving huge term.

 

[Weltschmerz]

In a vacuum, Hellebuyck is the best overall choice for us but looking at all goaltender options, it just comes down to price.

But Price is on LTIR

I have a bad feeling about Hellebuck.

 

[Pancakes]

Absolutely agree.

But I guess I can't help but feel like people are in for some disappointment unless the team changes a LOT about the way they play and how the roster is set up along with the goaltender, himself. I think other netminders could have maybe stolen a few more games last year as Jarry was about as un-clutch as I've ever seen. And hell that would have been the difference between playoffs and no playoffs. But it's still a position that relies a ton on what is going on in front of it.

True. But we might be able to replicate what Jarry did for less money and term, which might allow us to address holes elsewhere.

 

[Empoleon8771]

He was negative 2 in goals saved above expected, which I'd say lines up pretty well with the 909 save %.

It wasn't a bad season, it was just totally mediocre. Not interested in paying out the ass for that and giving huge term.

Yeah I agree, he had an entirely mediocre year last year. That's not nearly as bad as what saying "I wouldn't even want him as a reclamation project" or "he's only acceptable as a 1B making less than $3 million a year" implies he is.

He had a mediocre and injury filled season after having a great season in 2021-2022. That's absolutely not in line with how this site treats him. This site overall treats him like he's a horrible goalie.

 

[Peat]

But Price is on LTIR

I have a bad feeling about Hellebuck.

A+ user name.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

True. But we might be able to replicate what Jarry did for less money and term, which might allow us to address holes elsewhere.

That is my sincere hope and something I hope the team understands.

Frankly all of this talk about paying really ANYONE like 7+ million makes me itchy.

I'll say it until I'm blue in the face... this is not a position you dump significant money into.

 

[Weltschmerz]

True. But we might be able to replicate what Jarry did for less money and term, which might allow us to address holes elsewhere.

Is anything out there what Jarry is asking for?

 

[Peat]

As ever, I want no part of giving a goalie a lot of money, and I want no part of cheaping out on goalies and hoping to be the team that wins goalie roulette.

Or in other words, what I want is impossible, and I'm very glad other people have to make the choice.

I am mildly interested as to how aggressive Dubas will be about this. Goalie roulette has not been kind to Dubas.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't want to pay goalies either but I think people are underestimating how difficult it is to get a performance even just like last year Jarry from your goalies. If it was so easy to get solid goalie performances, you wouldn't see teams like Edmonton still struggling to get good goaltending.

I mentioned him already, but people have been bringing up Korpisalo because he had a .914 save% in 39 starts last year. But in the previous 2 years, he had an .887 save% in 55 starts combined. The opposite happened to Elvis Merzlikins in Columbus, he went from a .910 save% in 87 games in the previous 2 years to an .875 save% in 30 games this year.

The main reason you shouldn't want to commit term and money to goalies is because goalies are really inconsistent season to season, way more than any other position. But if you have a consistent goalie from year to year, you should absolutely lock that down and get him signed long-term. What makes the best goalies the best goalies is that they can consistently perform at that level, not that they're any more skilled than any other goalie.

Jarry is closer to a consistent goalie for me, because even with his struggles he still puts up good overall numbers and decent advanced numbers. But he's obviously not fully in that "consistent goalie" category, because we wouldn't be having this discussion if he was there. But if you could get him to a reasonable contract (medium term at around $5 million a year), that pretty clearly seems to be a better option to me than trying to roll the dice with some cheap goalie in net.