Speculation: Penguins off day talk thread: Yes, Sully is still the coach

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Smith is on pace for 54 points which is pretty in line with what he accomplished in Vegas.

I'd like a bit more out of him too but historically that's about what he is. We all got baited by his hot start into hoping for more.

Agree on Rakell though. I think if he's producing at the rate he did last year the top six looks great. But sadly he wasn't and now he's hurt.


He's a point per game with one of his wingers being a complete non factor the whole season and with the powerplay being f***in awful. Not sure what more you want from him at 5v5?

On ice goal results are not a great metric to look at anyhow. Too much randomness there.

Sure, I'm not overly concerned, but he's got like 1 assist in his past 8 games or something. Every bit as bad as Rakell's been over that stretch. /shrug

 

[Pancakes]

Not be giving up more goals than his line is scoring?

It's not "randomness" with Malkin, it's been a trend with him. His 5v5 goal differentials have been basically net neutral for years:

-2023-2024: 11 GF, 12 GA
-2022-2023: 53 GF, 50 GA
-2021-2022: 23 GF, 29 GA
-2020-2021: 20 GF, 21 GA

If you think those are the results of a good 2nd line, I've got some bad news for you.

I would argue only the past two years bear any relevance there because prior to that Malkin had absolute dregs on his line at 5v5 in 2021 and 2020.

This year is the first time in a long time that you could say he has two actual good wingers on his line. Except that Rakell has been hot garbage.

Anyways, what he's doing would be good enough if the PP wasn't garbage.

Sure, I'm not overly concerned, but he's got like 1 assist in his past 8 games or something. Every bit as bad as Rakell's been over that stretch. /shrug

50-60 point guys go through those stretches. We'd notice that less if Rakell wasn't A) hurt and B) garbage when he wasn't. One guy goes cold and the other guy picks up the slack. Except now it's one guy goes cold and the other guy stays colder than a chunk of meat hanging in a meat freezer

 

[Empoleon8771]

I would argue only the past two years bear any relevance there because prior to that Malkin had absolute dregs on his line at 5v5 in 2021 and 2020.

This year is the first time in a long time that you could say he has two actual good wingers on his line. Except that Rakell has been hot garbage.

Anyways, what he's doing would be good enough if the PP wasn't garbage.

The powerplay being garbage doesn't erase that he's losing his matchups at 5v5.

I'm not saying Malkin is a bad player, far from it. I'm saying he's no longer good enough to be the center piece of a good scoring top-6 line, or he's at least trending in that direction quickly if he's not there yet. He's trending more and more towards being a Guentzel caliber player rather than what he was in the past. He's arguably at that point already.

 

[Pancakes]

The powerplay being garbage doesn't erase that he's losing his matchups at 5v5.

I'm not saying Malkin is a bad player, far from it. I'm saying he's no longer good enough to be the center piece of a good scoring top-6 line, or he's at least trending in that direction quickly if he's not there yet. He's trending more and more towards being a Guentzel caliber player rather than what he was in the past. He's arguably at that point already.

His decline is part of the reason why I wasn't a big fan of the Smith acquisition. Smith has worked fine and has chemistry with him so it's been ok, but Smith doesn't drive play in terms of possession. Sid and Geno are getting to the point in their careers where I really wish they had some wingers who could hold onto pucks and push the play.

GCR is working fine because Rust has re-established his dog on a bone game this year which is making up for Jake being a lazy (or if I'm being kind, cerebral) player at 5v5. Malkin's line is good when they get the rush game going but that's about it. Smith has had spurts of being good on the forecheck but I don't think it's his game.

I'd kill for a couple of play driving top six wingers even if they were less offensively talented than what we have now. I think the team as a whole would be better off.

 

[Empoleon8771]

His decline is part of the reason why I wasn't a big fan of the Smith acquisition. Smith has worked fine and has chemistry with him so it's been ok, but Smith doesn't drive play in terms of possession. Sid and Geno are getting to the point in their careers where I really wish they had some wingers who could hold onto pucks and push the play.

GCR is working fine because Rust has re-established his dog on a bone game this year which is making up for Jake being a lazy (or if I'm being kind, cerebral) player at 5v5. Malkin's line is good when they get the rush game going but that's about it. Smith has had spurts of being good on the forecheck but I don't think it's his game.

I'd kill for a couple of play driving top six wingers even if they were less offensively talented than what we have now. I think the team as a whole would be better off.

Yeah that's what I meant with my post, I wasn't saying Malkin was a bad player, but he's just not good enough to drive a line like he used to do. He can put up good individual results, like what he has been doing for the last 4 years (PPG and top-30 in league scoring when healthy), but any line where he's the primary guy isn't going to be giving the results needed for a contender caliber top-6 line.

It's the same issue that Guentzel would have if he was asked to be the primary guy on his line, although I think Guentzel would be a bit worse at it than Malkin is at this point.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I would argue only the past two years bear any relevance there because prior to that Malkin had absolute dregs on his line at 5v5 in 2021 and 2020.

This year is the first time in a long time that you could say he has two actual good wingers on his line. Except that Rakell has been hot garbage.

Anyways, what he's doing would be good enough if the PP wasn't garbage.


50-60 point guys go through those stretches. We'd notice that less if Rakell wasn't A) hurt and B) garbage when he wasn't. One guy goes cold and the other guy picks up the slack. Except now it's one guy goes cold and the other guy stays colder than a chunk of meat hanging in a meat freezer

Yeah, I get it. I'm not trying to run the guys outta town or anything. It's just something the team can't really afford for long stretches, they're gonna be right on the knife's edge all season in the Metro.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

His decline is part of the reason why I wasn't a big fan of the Smith acquisition. Smith has worked fine and has chemistry with him so it's been ok, but Smith doesn't drive play in terms of possession. Sid and Geno are getting to the point in their careers where I really wish they had some wingers who could hold onto pucks and push the play.

GCR is working fine because Rust has re-established his dog on a bone game this year which is making up for Jake being a lazy (or if I'm being kind, cerebral) player at 5v5. Malkin's line is good when they get the rush game going but that's about it. Smith has had spurts of being good on the forecheck but I don't think it's his game.

I'd kill for a couple of play driving top six wingers even if they were less offensively talented than what we have now. I think the team as a whole would be better off.

Play drivers are typically the most talented players, and difficult to acquire. Who do you have in mind that is cheaper? The truth is that it's going to be difficult to win if Malkin isn't the superstar he once was.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Yeah that's what I meant with my post, I wasn't saying Malkin was a bad player, but he's just not good enough to drive a line like he used to do. He can put up good individual results, like what he has been doing for the last 4 years (PPG and top-30 in league scoring when healthy), but any line where he's the primary guy isn't going to be giving the results needed for a contender caliber top-6 line.

It's the same issue that Guentzel would have if he was asked to be the primary guy on his line, although I think Guentzel would be a bit worse at it than Malkin is at this point.

Malkin is terrible defensively not due to lack of effort of defensive IQ. He does both very well. It's that his foot speed is terrible. He can barely stop/start. He is in his late 30s with a ton of wear and tear on his legs. That also means that the only way he can do his thing transitionally is to get a gliding start. Meaning he is going to keep looping in the defensive zone resulting in missed assignments and goals against.

He is still a genius offensively and has skill in spades. But he needs people to create space for him and take the defensive burden off.

It also wouldn't kill him to take shorter shifts. If he makes a bad turnover, he gets all mad at himself and tries to play defense. The problem is he's already exhausted and slow. Go for a change.

 

[Pancakes]

Play drivers are typically the most talented players, and difficult to acquire. Who do you have in mind that is cheaper? The truth is that it's going to be difficult to win if Malkin isn't the superstar he once was.

I don't have a specific player in mind tbh. But wish we could find one.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I don't have a specific player in mind tbh. But wish we could find one.

Sidney Crosby. With Malkin at LW and Rust on RW.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Sidney Crosby. With Malkin at LW and Rust on RW.

I don't know that Sid and Geno full time would work very well tbh. Also leaves the 2C role in a real ugly spot with guys like Eller, DOC, or somebody else left to fill in. But it's probably coming to the time where Geno's gotta have his defensive responsibility reduced--and maybe that means shifting to wing. Just dunno how the team solves that given how weak the center depth is in-organization with regard to scoring line potential.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

His decline is part of the reason why I wasn't a big fan of the Smith acquisition. Smith has worked fine and has chemistry with him so it's been ok, but Smith doesn't drive play in terms of possession. Sid and Geno are getting to the point in their careers where I really wish they had some wingers who could hold onto pucks and push the play.

GCR is working fine because Rust has re-established his dog on a bone game this year which is making up for Jake being a lazy (or if I'm being kind, cerebral) player at 5v5. Malkin's line is good when they get the rush game going but that's about it. Smith has had spurts of being good on the forecheck but I don't think it's his game.

I'd kill for a couple of play driving top six wingers even if they were less offensively talented than what we have now. I think the team as a whole would be better off.

Dude, I've been beating this drum for YEARS and have been shouted down because apparently we don't need play driving/puck carrying wingers, we just need guys who can get open and shoot while Sid/Geno do all the creating.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I don't know that Sid and Geno full time would work very well tbh. Also leaves the 2C role in a real ugly spot with guys like Eller, DOC, or somebody else left to fill in. But it's probably coming to the time where Geno's gotta have his defensive responsibility reduced--and maybe that means shifting to wing. Just dunno how the team solves that given how weak the center depth is in-organization with regard to scoring line potential.

It saves them from giving out the Guentzel contract, which gives them a ton of space. We should have signed Trocheck to move Malkin to 1LW last year.

Sid/Geno haven't had the best shifts together recently, but its such a "special occasion" and once in a blue moon thing that they think "score at all costs." If they knew they would play together all game, they would definitely tighten up.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

It saves them from giving out the Guentzel contract, which gives them a ton of space. We should have signed Trocheck to move Malkin to 1LW last year.

Sid/Geno haven't had the best shifts together recently, but its such a "special occasion" and once in a blue moon thing that they think "score at all costs." If they knew they would play together all game, they would definitely tighten up.

I just don't know that the cratering of the depth makes it worthwhile. I know they'd eventually figure it out and work well enough, but at the cost of moving one of the miserable options up to 2C? -edit- I think you make the top line marginally better, but the already weak 2nd line gets even weaker imo.

And they're for sure gonna re-sign Jake, imo. Like near 100% certainty. It'll be stupid as f*** and ensure they get some shit like Galchenyuk and POJ for him when he's eventually dealt, but this team can't ever make a proactive, smart move. They gotta hand on too long every time.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I just don't know that the cratering of the depth makes it worthwhile. I know they'd eventually figure it out and work well enough, but at the cost of moving one of the miserable options up to 2C?

And they're for sure gonna re-sign Jake, imo. Like near 100% certainty. It'll be stupid as f*** and ensure they get some shit like Galchenyuk and POJ for him when he's eventually dealt, but this team can't ever make a proactive, smart move. They gotta hand on too long every time.

Empo has pointed it out that the Malkin "scoring depth" 2nd line routinely gets outscored by its opponents and is actually underperforming our bottom 6. Making the 2nd line a simpler, more boring line as opposed to aging/slow Malkin surrounded by two mid-six wingers would result in a better goal differential.

Edit: what about trading Jake for RNH?

 

[Andy99]

“The Penguins dropped Wednesday night’s game 1-0 to a good Rangers team. Losing to the Rangers isn’t isn’t problematic in a vaccuum. How they lost very much is. They let Jonathan Quick shut them out in the year 2023. They got shutout despite having five power plays. This is a totally unacceptable result. There is too much talent on the ice for the power play to not find a way to get a goal in a game like Wednesday night. I would love to assess the power play, but they aren’t committed enough to even get the thing set up in order to make any assessments. They continue to look like they are going through the motions rudderless. It is very frustrating to watch. This should be one of the team’s best weapons. This needs to be one of the team’s best weapons given the injuries in the top six. Yet, it remains a weakness. I was willing to give them some leeway early on in the season. They are a team who has one of the fewest power plays in the league. On a night where they have five opportunities and have three sure fire hall of fame players? C’mon. There are a lot of coaches who would kill to have that kind of talent available to work with on the power play. We might be looking at a situation where Todd Reirden needs to join Matt Canada.

As for tonight’s game, Bryan Rust was skating in a regular jersey earlier today at the morning skate. It was also an optional skate and he stayed on later. Usually a sign of a player not making his way into the lineup and Mike Sullivan confirmed so when he said Rust will be out this evening. He is listed day to day so in the big picture things are heading in the right direction even if it does nothing to help them out tonight.

I’ve beat this drum many times in the past and I’m going to bring it up again because of the current lineup issues. Mike Sullivan is going to have to get more creative in how he deploys Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin at 5v5. He needs to sneak some shifts with them together after TV timeouts, penalty kills, and at the ends of periods. He should also get Erik Karlsson out there as well. You can’t just roll the lines when your team is desperate for wins and now desperate for 5v5 goals.”

HockeyBuzz.com - Ryan Wilson - Power play needs to get their heads out of their Reirden

www.hockeybuzz.com

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Empo has pointed it out that the Malkin "scoring depth" 2nd line routinely gets outscored by its opponents and is actually underperforming our bottom 6. Making the 2nd line a simpler, more boring line as opposed to aging/slow Malkin surrounded by two mid-six wingers would result in a better goal differential.

Yeah, I made a quick edit there. I just think you're taking an already mediocre/weak 2nd line and just crumpling it for a marginal upgrade on the top line. Geno ain't good defensively, but throwing Eller in his place elevates him above capability imo, and just has a domino effect throughout the lineup.

Personally, I'm just watching for entertainment value nowadays, so throwing Sid/Geno together is whatever. This team's just gonna keep circling the drain in utter mediocrity until Sid hangs 'em up and they can start the rebuild. I just don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell Sullivan would do it, and I'm not sure the positive outweighs the negative that the move would create.

I think that if this team moves Jake, they have to get the biggest return of futures possible. We're beyond the period of trying for a hockey trade at this stage of the era imo. RNH seems pretty vital to Edmonton as well, and I dunno that Jake does anything for them.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Yeah, I made a quick edit there. I just think you're taking an already mediocre/weak 2nd line and just crumpling it for a marginal upgrade on the top line. Geno ain't good defensively, but throwing Eller in his place elevates him above capability imo, and just has a domino effect throughout the lineup.

1) You'd be able to get someone else at 2C if you were willing to move on from Guentzel (or Smith or Rakell).
2) The second line is bad because its offensive ambitions outstrip its actual ability. This is a function of thinking it must score because it's a Malkin line. It would be terrible for entertainment value but if you just plugged a mediocre 2C in there they'd play a low-event game. From a standpoint of winning, it's better to play a low-event game to a draw than play a high-event game that your 2nd line will lose.

A Malkin-Crosby-Rust 1st line would easily win in a high-event game.

I mean maybe there's a way to get some William Nylander type gamebreaker winger for Geno, but that feels like a huge stretch at this point. We've already put a great OFD on the ice 80% of the time between Karlsson and Letang.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

1) You'd be able to get someone else at 2C if you were willing to move on from Guentzel (or Smith or Rakell).
2) The second line is bad because its offensive ambitions outstrip its actual ability. This is a function of thinking it must score because it's a Malkin line. It would be terrible for entertainment value but if you just plugged a mediocre 2C in there they'd play a low-event game. From a standpoint of winning, it's better to play a low-event game to a draw than play a high-event game that your 2nd line will lose.

A Malkin-Crosby-Rust 1st line would easily win in a high-event game.

I mean maybe there's a way to get some William Nylander type gamebreaker winger for Geno, but that feels like a huge stretch at this point. We've already put a great OFD on the ice 80% of the time between Karlsson and Letang.

Yeah, I just think we're pretty much gonna get this roster from here on out more or less. Too many guys are signed for too long, and most with restrictive NTCs (with Jake likely joining the list soon). Not enough flexibility to go out and get another big fish imo. The shitty reality of the way the team's been run for way too long now. Acquire guys, usually at a premium, pay to keep 'em around, or replace them with lateral moves. Always at the cap, nothing coming up through the prospect pipeline, etc. It is what it is. /shrug

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I don't have a specific player in mind tbh. But wish we could find one.

I would have considered Eller one when he was younger.

 

[Josey Wales]

The Penguins have recalled forward Jansen Harkins from the @WBSPenguins.

 

[Grouch]

The Penguins have recalled forward Jansen Harkins from the @WBSPenguins.

He might get a game here…..I assume for Nylander. BUT if he is on L2 I will puke.

G-Sid-Hino/Z
Smith-Malkin-Z/Hino
DOC-Eller-Acciari
Nieto-Carter-Harkins. (7 min ice time or less)

 

[Andy99]

Is he finally going to get in? Or just drive around the state of PA…he probably knows all the best places to eat on the Turnpike lol…

 

[Ginormousthumbs]

Well kids, it’s almost December and the Pens are towards the bottom of the WC race. I know the East is fairly competitive, but this is silly.

 

[BusinessGoose]

Is he finally going to get in? Or just drive around the state of PA…he probably knows all the best places to eat on the Turnpike lol…

Do we expect anything from him if he DOES play?