Speculation: Penguins off day talk thread: Yes, Sully is still the coach

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Believe it or not, but this team has benefited from giving guys that weren't dominating the AHL chances. It's not like Rust or Sheary were putting up such godly numbers they pushed their way into the NHL. The only forward that's really done that in our pipeline is Jake.

I guess Sully felt safer with those guys having coached them personally. You'd think he'd be more open to the concept considered it's yielded results in the past.
Rust came up as a bottom six fill in because he embraced that role in WBS. He was WBS' best PKer at the time while still providing some offense. His game was NHL ready, even if his production wasn't. His offense didn't emerge until he established himself in the NHL as a bottom six regular.

And Sheary was over a point per game when he was called up and had played in all situations.

They're not comparable to Puustinen.
 
Kasper Bjorkqvist scored in his first game.

He's in Finland now.

Scoring a point in the NHL is not a predictor of future success.

As far as Puustinen, he's the same player he was three years ago. There has been repeated talk about him needing to round out his game, to be reliable at all ends of the ice, and he doesn't appear to have done that.
Who knows what guys like Bjorkqvist and Hallinder (and soon to be Puustinen) could have done with the kind of leash DOC has gotten. The former are back in Europe likely because they got sick of making $80k in WBS watching plugs get NHL time above them.

You know what would be refreshing? Taking a young player with offensive talent and just letting them try it at the next level without trying to make them into the next Craig Adams. If you can score, you don’t need to round your game out. The whole object of the game is to score.
 
Who knows what guys like Bjorkqvist and Hallinder (and soon to be Puustinen) could have done with the kind of leash DOC has gotten. The former are back in Europe likely because they got sick of making $80k in WBS watching plugs get NHL time above them.

You know what would be refreshing? Taking a young player with offensive taken and just letting them try it at the next level without trying to make them into the next Craig Adams. If you can score, you don’t need to round your game out. The whole object of the game is to score.
Hallander was in North America for two total seasons, Bjorkqvist for one plus a few games here and there. They were on the standard entry level contract. Neither is lighting it up in Europe. Feels like they expected something to be handed to them and pouted when it didn't happen.

And there aren't many players in the NHL who just score. The ones that do are only able to stick around because they score a ton. Phil Kessel was one, and he registered seven 30+ goal seasons and scored almost 1,000 career points.

The rest are Daniel Sprong - playing sheltered minutes on teams lacking stars.

Puustinen isn't even on Sprong's level.
 
Hallander was in North America for two total seasons, Bjorkqvist for one plus a few games here and there. They were on the standard entry level contract. Neither is lighting it up in Europe. Feels like they expected something to be handed to them and pouted when it didn't happen.

And there aren't many players in the NHL who just score. The ones that do are only able to stick around because they score a ton. Phil Kessel was one, and he registered seven 30+ goal seasons and scored almost 1,000 career points.

The rest are Daniel Sprong - playing sheltered minutes on teams lacking stars.

Puustinen isn't even on Sprong's level.
There are plenty of offensive first 3rd liners in the league (like Sprong - who has developed into a decently useful depth scorer) but to play for Sully’s bottom 6 you gotta PK.

I would argue that a cap strapped team should be leaving few stones unturned to find cheap complimentary offense.

I’m not saying any of these players are a guarantee. I am saying that you should at least give it it a shot.
 
Sorry, that's what I get for scanning through threads too quickly. Thought you were referring to Ty Smith, not Puustinen.

Ty Smith should be dominating the AHL. He hasn't.

As far as Puustinen, I keep waiting for him to take the next step and he hasn't. He and O'Connor have similar vibes to them right now at their respective levels. The opportunity is there for Puustinen to round out his game; he hasn't. The opportunity is there for DOC to produce; he hasn't.

No one around the NHL considers anyone at WBS to be all that good except for Blomqvist and maybe Poulin. Puustinen and Smith are basically considered fringe NHLers at best. The only prospects worth their salt are Yager and Pickering, with an outside shot of a couple of the Russians. I think we just need to accept that.

Ty Smith has 9 points in 14 games.

There are two players younger than him that play defense in the AHL above him in scoring.

Pettersson, Graves and Shea are all defensive defensemen. Letang is being used on the PK. There is absolutely no reason we need “the safe” option on the 3rd pairing and the opportunities given to Smith given he was a central piece of the Marino trade are just absolutely moronic.

If Ty Smith had been given a 10-15 game run on D and had been absolutely terrible, I’d get it. But he had sparkling numbers GF/GA numbers in his minutes and put up 4 points in 9 games.

Reads a whole lot like the “you can’t win with 6 Letangs” quote.

Especially given Ruhwedel has been terrible in terms of GF/GA when he is on the ice for two years and POJ is just as “defensively liable” as Smith.
 
There are plenty of offensive first 3rd liners in the league (like Sprong - who has developed into a decently useful depth scorer) but to play for Sully’s bottom 6 you gotta PK.

I would argue that a cap strapped team should be leaving few stones unturned to find cheap complimentary offense.

I’m not saying any of these players are a guarantee. I am saying that you should at least give it it a shot.
The Penguins have elite offensive players in the top six. Players like Sprong carve out a niche on teams where there is less talent. Sprong can get power play minutes on teams like Seattle and Detroit because of that.

The Penguins don't need Sprong type players. They've built their team the right way -- the only issue has been that players with a track record like Acciari and Nieto haven't produced quite as expected. That doesn't mean they won't as the season progresses.

Rakell is out for a while. Nylander can get a run for a bit. If Puustinen gets his act together and Nylander sputters, then fine, give Puustinen a shot while Rakell is out.

But he's not knocking down the door and he hasn't added any dimension to his game. No one in the NHL universe considers him to be a legit NHL prospect.
 
The Penguins have elite offensive players in the top six. Players like Sprong carve out a niche on teams where there is less talent. Sprong can get power play minutes on teams like Seattle and Detroit because of that.

The Penguins don't need Sprong type players. They've built their team the right way -- the only issue has been that players with a track record like Acciari and Nieto haven't produced quite as expected. That doesn't mean they won't as the season progresses.

Rakell is out for a while. Nylander can get a run for a bit. If Puustinen gets his act together and Nylander sputters, then fine, give Puustinen a shot while Rakell is out.

But he's not knocking down the door and he hasn't added any dimension to his game. No one in the NHL universe considers him to be a legit NHL prospect.

Washington found a role for Sprong and have a similar build to us. Seattle did too.

Mike Sullivan is a bad coach when it comes to traditional deployment with his line up. It’s most likely a huge reason we have lost multiple playoff series for half a decade. He is archaic in his line usage and no longer allows players to have an impact offensively on cheap contracts instead advocating for the Nieto, Acciaris and now Jeff Carters of the world.

Harkins playing over Zohorna is another feather in that cap.

It’s okay to admit that this team has been poor at player evaluation for awhile now which is why we haven’t had a single player since 2017 play more than a few NHL games.

The treatment of Puustinen is just downright stupid. Ty Smith too.
 
“He’s got a great shot, he’s got real good offensive instincts, he sees it and thinks it pretty well offensively,” Penguins coach Mike Sullivan said. “Then just rounding out his overall game. Just being more reliable and trustworthy away from the puck, being conscientious defensively in his own end. Those are the things that I think afford you the opportunity to play in the NHL and then build from there. Most forwards, when you look at it, they enter this league through the bottom six. There aren’t too many that enter the league in the top six.

“When players are playing in the bottom six, one of the prerequisites of that is to be reliable and trustworthy defensively. We have to have a certain trust that we can put players over the boards in certain situations and know that they’re going to be able to get the job done. I think (Puustinen) has work to do there. He’s gotten better and grown in that regard. I think he can continue to work and get better in that capacity.”

This is exactly why every prospect here never succeeds. There is an unrealistic focus on what players “can’t do” versus what they “can”. It’s the same issue that plagues teams like Montreal and NYR and has been touched on multiple times by outside influences.

This dumbass thinks every player needs to be “trusted” while he runs out Chad Poopwedel every night he can.

Luckily our GM is very opposite of this mindset.
 
Why do we care about what Ron Hextall, who is no longer the GM of the Penguins, paid to get Smith? Whether Smith plays should be based entirely on his performance. He sucked when he had his change in the pre-season, hence why he cleared waivers and is now in the AHL.

I want Smith to work out because he can play RD and I really like the concept of Ludvig-Smith as a bottom pair. But as this defense is constructed, this team needs guys who can give 10-12 minutes a night on their 3rd pair while playing safe and boring hockey. Smith just isn't that. Unless Smith can play a relatively mistake-free (or low mistake) game, he's not a fit for what the Penguins need on their 3rd pair. A PP specialist (5 of Smith's 9 points this year are on the powerplay) who sucks defensively offers nothing for what the Penguins need out of their 3rd pair defenseman.

A NHL team is not just built of the 12 best forwards and 6 best defensemen in the organization. Players have roles that they need to fill. That's why someone like Puustinen isn't going to play in any Mike Sullivan bottom-6 groups. That is the way this team is structured and that is the way any GM or coach would treat this roster.

If Rust and Rakell are out you know Carter is going in the top 6. Lets be realistic here.

Why would Sullivan play Carter in the top-6 when Carter hasn't played in the top-6 for the Penguins since like 2021?

If Rust is out, Hinostroza is definitely taking his place. If Sullivan thought of Carter as a top-6 option, he would have been mentioned along with Hinostroza, Harkins and Nylander.
 
The Penguins have elite offensive players in the top six. Players like Sprong carve out a niche on teams where there is less talent. Sprong can get power play minutes on teams like Seattle and Detroit because of that.

The Penguins don't need Sprong type players. They've built their team the right way -- the only issue has been that players with a track record like Acciari and Nieto haven't produced quite as expected. That doesn't mean they won't as the season progresses.

Rakell is out for a while. Nylander can get a run for a bit. If Puustinen gets his act together and Nylander sputters, then fine, give Puustinen a shot while Rakell is out.

But he's not knocking down the door and he hasn't added any dimension to his game. No one in the NHL universe considers him to be a legit NHL prospect.
Sprong did just fine in roles with playoff teams in Seattle and Washington. I would argue the Pens do need at least 1 if not 2 of those type of players as depth forwards.

The model of the top 6 does all the scoring and the bottom 6 defends sucks. Just like the Penguins currently do and have for years now. This team (and all teams) are most successful when they have legitimate complimentary scorers who can actually compliment the stars more than once a month. Nieto and Accari are not those players. Accari I guess did have some decent goal scoring seasons but he’s not the type of player who can do that with the total ineptitude that he’s playing with.

Just because Mike Sullivan went stupid it doesn’t mean the fan base has to. I still can’t grasp how a coach that won 1 cup with the best offensive 3rd line in years now thinks a purely defensive 3rd and 4th line are the way to go.

And yes, Puustinen is considered a legit NHL prospect by many reputable people and outlets and has been essentially since his d+1 year when he had his offensive outburst. Speaking in such hyperbole makes it tough to have a serious debate.

Just like I preached all summer when the dust settled from our moves, this team is going to be in trouble when a top 6 player is injured or sucks. Now we have 2 of those things at once and nobody legitimately to step up. This ship was doomed from the start and now it’s time to put on the life jackets.
 
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Ty Smith has 9 points in 14 games.

There are two players younger than him that play defense in the AHL above him in scoring.

Pettersson, Graves and Shea are all defensive defensemen. Letang is being used on the PK. There is absolutely no reason we need “the safe” option on the 3rd pairing and the opportunities given to Smith given he was a central piece of the Marino trade are just absolutely moronic.

If Ty Smith had been given a 10-15 game run on D and had been absolutely terrible, I’d get it. But he had sparkling numbers GF/GA numbers in his minutes and put up 4 points in 9 games.

Reads a whole lot like the “you can’t win with 6 Letangs” quote.

Especially given Ruhwedel has been terrible in terms of GF/GA when he is on the ice for two years and POJ is just as “defensively liable” as Smith.
Smith was extraordinarily sheltered in his minutes with the Penguins last year. He had a 91.67% offensive zone start. He had four total defensive zone starts in his NHL appearance.

Not four per game. Four total.

Smith's not going to get the appropriate usage here. Karlsson and Letang are getting those zone starts. Shea is at just 37.04% offensive zone starts.

It's just like the bottom six. Kapanen, Heinen, etc. struggled last year because they couldn't handle heavier defensive usage. That's why they went out and got Acciari, Nieto, Eller, etc. Their offensive production hasn't been as expected, but they've been exactly as advertised defensively, and they're a reason why this team is much better defensively as a team.

This isn't just about talent. It's about fit and usage. Smith is helpful if Letang or Karlsson are out. Puustinen is potentially helpful if a top six winger is out (Nylander deservedly got the call this time). They're not helpful lower in the lineup.
 
Sprong did just fine in roles with playoff teams in Seattle and Washington. I would argue the Pens do need at least 1 if not 2 of those type of players as depth forwards.

The model of the top 6 does all the scoring and the bottom 6 defends sucks. Just like the Penguins currently do and have for years now. This team (and all teams) are most successful when they have legitimate complimentary scorers who can actually compliment the stars more than once a month. Nieto and Accari are not those players. Accari I guess did have some decent goal scoring seasons but he’s not the type of player who can do that with the total ineptitude that he’s playing with.

Just because Mike Sullivan went stupid it doesn’t mean the fan base has to.

And yes, Puustinen is considered a legit NHL prospect by many reputable people and outlets and has been essentially since his d+1 year when he had his offensive outburst. Speaking in such hyperbole makes it tough to have a serious debate.
No, he's not. He's one of the best options in the system, but that's like being first in an ugly contest. The Pens have one of the four or five worst systems in the NHL.
 
One comment I'll make though is that I do feel like they have the flexibility to add one more additional offense focused player to their bottom-6. With Smith and Rust being regular PKers and Acciari and Eller as PKing centers, you don't really need many more PKers in your bottom-6. Two is plenty and any more than that would be overkill IMO.

I think you have one clear spot where you can put another offense-first player: 3rd line RW. The 3rd line is getting heavier defensive usage, but not to the point where I think an offensive player wouldn't be able to survive in the role. Zohorna is at a 37.5 offensive zone start% this year, I don't see why a guy like Kapanen couldn't survive with that kind of usage.

In an ideal world, I'd like to bring in another guy of Kapanen's skillset (speedy sniper with a decent 2-way game), bump O'Connor to L4 and bump Nieto out of the lineup. You can do that while not worrying about defensive fit or anything like that IMO. I don't know how you'd get the cap space to afford that, but that's what I'd be trying to do.
 
Actually if you look at Kapanen's performance this year in St. Louis, he's doing exactly what I'd expect him to do in a defensive 3rd line role. He has a 40.9 offensive zone start% with what looks like good analytics, and he's putting up about a 15 goal and 35 point pace. He's also killing penalties in St. Louis. What he's doing in St. Louis is pretty much exactly what I'd be looking out of a 3rd line RWer via trade.

It sucks that he struggled as much as he did last year. Sullivan certainly made things worse with how he handled him and they don't have the cap space for him to begin with, but he's pretty much exactly what I want out of a 3rd line RW. Hextall also deserves some blame for that, it's not surprising to see him struggle when he's playing with the carcass of Carter and McGinn.
 
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Fingers crossed it's not some groin injury that's gonna bother him until surgery in the off season or something. :laugh: But it's the Pens, so y'know.
 
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The Penguins don't need Sprong type players. They've built their team the right way -- the only issue has been that players with a track record like Acciari and Nieto haven't produced quite as expected. That doesn't mean they won't as the season progresses.
They haven't though. They've built the team how Sullivan envisions a roster should look like, but that's not how most of the good teams are built nowadays.

Building a team where the top six is supposed to do all your scoring while the bottom six does nothing but get heavy defensive minutes and play the opposition to a draw is an archaic way of building a roster.

It's not surprising you defend the roster construction since it's 100% what Sullivan likes, but all you have to do is look around the league to see that the best teams have balanced scoring throughout.

(For the record, I'm not advocating for Sprong in particular. My issue is with this notion that we don't need "offensive" players in our bottom six and how Sullivan wants the team to be built is the "right way")
 
They haven't though. They've built the team how Sullivan envisions a roster should look like, but that's not how most of the good teams are built nowadays.

Building a team where the top six is supposed to do all your scoring while the bottom six does nothing but get heavy defensive minutes and play the opposition to a draw is an archaic way of building a roster.

But that's not actually how the Penguins roster has performed this year. The Penguins have gotten strong results out of their bottom-6 this year, especially Eller's line. The 4th line isn't producing anything, but the 3rd line is producing really well.

Throwing this out there:

-Crosby on-ice: 21 goals for, 13 goals against
-Malkin on-ice: 11 goals for, 12 goals against
-Bottom-6 on-ice: 11 goals for, 8 goals against

There is one problem area in this group and it's not the bottom-6 IMO.

As an aside, this isn't an argument I'm willing to throw my weight on yet, but I'm quickly approaching the point of questioning whether Malkin as the main piece on a top-6 line is good enough to yield a good top-6 line in the NHL today.
 
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It's becoming a serious problem that now *both* Rakell and Smith are ghosting. One was a concern, both is a genuine problem. Gotta figure out how to get at least one of them going again.
Smith is on pace for 54 points which is pretty in line with what he accomplished in Vegas.

I'd like a bit more out of him too but historically that's about what he is. We all got baited by his hot start into hoping for more.

Agree on Rakell though. I think if he's producing at the rate he did last year the top six looks great. But sadly he wasn't and now he's hurt.

As an aside, this isn't an argument I'm willing to throw my weight on yet, but I'm quickly approaching the point of questioning whether Malkin as the main piece on a top-6 line is good enough to yield a good top-6 line in the NHL today.
He's a point per game with one of his wingers being a complete non factor the whole season and with the powerplay being f***in awful. Not sure what more you want from him at 5v5?

On ice goal results are not a great metric to look at anyhow. Too much randomness there.
 
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He's a point per game with one of his wingers being a complete non factor the whole season and with the powerplay being f***in awful. Not sure what more you want from him at 5v5?

On ice goal results are not a great metric to look at anyhow. Too much randomness there.

Not be giving up more goals than his line is scoring?

It's not "randomness" with Malkin, it's been a trend with him. His 5v5 goal differentials have been basically net neutral for years:

-2023-2024: 11 GF, 12 GA
-2022-2023: 53 GF, 50 GA
-2021-2022: 23 GF, 29 GA
-2020-2021: 20 GF, 21 GA

If you think those are the results of a good 2nd line, I've got some bad news for you.
 
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