Player Discussion: Patrik Laine IVever: a new hope? (Laine out of PAP, trade request still stands)

[VT]

@Marioesque a @Cowumbus

 

[Cowumbus]

You just keep ignoring the argument. I understand, it's kinda impossible to argue against but would be cool if you were capable of addressing it. Maybe you could logically explain why we should continue with bad configuration.

I don’t have an argument, other than with you stating that Laine is the top producer on the PP when there are players here who have produced better than Laine on the PP. I’m not suggesting he shouldn’t be on the PP. Or that it shouldn’t be changed stylistically.

And Laine being the main weapon in PP doesn't mean Marchenko or Chinakhov couldn't be in the same unit. The handedness fits for them, only thing that might limit it is Chinnys passing ability but I think he could be the right wall guy and open for onetimers. Laine is the best one to set him up on the opposite side.

I’m not saying he isn’t, just that there are guys here producing more on the PP than him.

You cannot claim something to be true when it is based on a theory.

 

[Marioesque]

I’m not saying he isn’t, just that there are guys here producing more on the PP than him.

Yeah as they should be, they're quite closer to scoring range than RD Laine. Or PP2 Laine.

However there is nobody better when he's on the left side, especially highlighted when there's a RHD on point.

My argument is he's the best for that position, and that's also a much better producing configuration than anything they have been running. So to improve the team PP, Laine on left with rhd on point is optimal. I want optimal.

Watching Avs PP highlights what we should be doing. It's ridiculous that it hasn't been done in this team for any other reason than injuries forcing it

 

[Cowumbus]

Yeah as they should be, they're quite closer to scoring range than RD Laine.

However there is nobody better when he's on the left side, especially highlighted when there's a RHD on point.

My argument is he's the best for that position, and that's also a much better producing configuration than anything they have been running. So to improve the team PP, Laine on left with rhd on point is optimal. I want optimal.

So then what are you arguing with me about!? I just wanted to understand your reasoning, but it sounds like you understand/agree there are guys out producing him on the PP currently.

 

[MoeBartoli]

My apologies to you as well. I just got triggered by the notion that people like me stay up all the night to watch the games and hoping for the team that we root for to succeed. With or without Laine playing. I’ve had several bags under my eyes during these excruciating seasons when he’s been on the team It’s all good. The CBJ will be a force to reckon in a couple of years, with or without Laine in the lineup.

I also truly believe this team can be force in a few years with or without a Laine.Its my hope that it is with him.,while frustrating at times, I love watching the guy and while every CBJ goal is exciting, Laine goals excite me the most.

 

[Marioesque]

So then what are you arguing with me about!? I just wanted to understand your reasoning, but it sounds like you understand/agree there are guys out producing him on the PP currently.

So your argument this whole time has been "Laine with hands tied behind his back is worse than some others on PP"?

That we agree with then.

My point is, untie the hands because it's a stupid self imposed detriment to the team to have them tied behind his back and expecting great results.

We know how he performs when they're not tied. I prefer that. You don't?

 

[Cowumbus]

So your argument this whole time has been "Laine with hands tied behind his back is worse than some others on PP"?

That we agree with then.

No, I don’t have an argument.

You claimed that Laine was the top PP producer. I asked you to show how that is true. You never did, because you agree that the numbers show that he is not. They show that there are others producing better on the CBJ PP since his arrival. That’s my point.

People can choose to say this is the new normal, or make excuses for him, or talk about hands being tied - they can do whatever they want. I’m not concerned about that.

But to claim he is the top PP producer for us is not true.

 

[Marioesque]

No, I don’t have an argument.

You claimed that Laine was the top PP producer. I asked you to show how that is true. You never did, because you agree that the numbers show that he is not. They show that there are others producing better on the CBJ PP since his arrival. That’s my point.

People can choose to say this is the new normal, or make excuses for him, or talk about hands being tied - they can do whatever they want. I’m not concerned about that.

But to claim he is the top PP producer for us is not true.

Yeah I have clearly outlined why he isn't, and suggested the obvious fixes to that.

That's the part you ignore. Why wouldn't you want to fix it, is my question.

Any player can be nerfed by bad usage. I'm not arguing he's not ruinable. You can choose if you want a productive and useful Laine or not. I would choose productive Laine, you might prefer keeping his hands tied ie. Used incorrectly

 

[Farmboy Patty]

Can you help me to better understand what you mean exactly? Are you talking about real goal totals, or are you talking about rates? Something else?

For instance, in the 21-22 season Jenner and Bjorkstrand both had more PP goals and PP G/60 than Laine.

In the 22-23 season Laine had 1 more PP goal than Jenner and Marchenko, but Marchenko had the better PP G/60.

Obviously in 23-24 Laine has not been as good, with 1 goal and the 6th highest PP G/60 on the team.

The same trend applies to point totals on the PP (trailing others).

Over the last 3 years Jenner has more goals, and Marchenko trails Laine by a single goal despite playing 140 less minutes. Gaudreau leads the team in PP Pts over that time, playing about 20 mins less.

Oddly enough, his PP shooting percentage has never been higher than 3rd best (ranging from 3rd to 9th) for forwards on the CBJ over the last 3 years. He does take the most shots on the PP though, and has done so over the last few years. Now I know you have talked about PP usage before, what might be related is the fact that his PP shooting percentage is significantly less than it ever was in Winnipeg, like 5+ percent. Is that due to teams figuring him out, usage, something else - I’m not sure.

I look forward to hearing your reasoning as to why he is the best producer.

We agree that there is more to a PP than just shots (not directing this at Laine, just stating the obvious).

It’s pretty simple. The CBJ PP sucks as a whole unit and system. They move the puck slowly, if there is a system, it’s clearly not working. It’s not about the amount of shots but the quality of the pass and scoring chance, which is where the whole unit contributes by being dangerous enough so that the PK must leave gaps to the cannon at the left circle. Having Boqvist stapled as a quarterback on the first PP would make a huge impact for the whole unit.

 

[Cowumbus]

Yeah I have clearly outlined why he isn't, and suggested the obvious fixes to that.

You have identified what you think the reason is. I have no issue with you voicing your hypothesis.

That's the part you ignore. Why wouldn't you want to fix it, is my question.

I never said anything either way on the subject, as that wasn’t the topic at hand. There is nothing to ignore when the stats tell the story of PP production. The claim he was the TOP PRODUCING player was the subject.

 

[Marioesque]

You have identified what you think the reason is. I have no issue with you voicing your hypothesis.

I never said anything either way on the subject, as that wasn’t the topic at hand. There is nothing to ignore when the stats tell the story of PP production. The claim he was the TOP PRODUCING player was the subject.

You're not attempting to solve the problem. You want to point at the problem but do nothing about it.

Either that's because you know it could be better as evidenced by his career and other working PPs that utilize a RH main shot with RHD feeding them....or you just don't understand that he could be used any better.

If you're not for solving problems, just complaining, then we have nothing to discuss. My approach is "how to fix it", yours is "I want to blame Laine"

 

[Cowumbus]

It’s pretty simple. The CBJ PP sucks as a whole unit and system. They move the puck slowly, if there is a system, it’s clearly not working. It’s not about the amount of shots but the quality of the pass and scoring chance, which is where the whole unit contributes by being dangerous enough so that the PK must leave gaps to the cannon at the left circle. Having Boqvist stapled as a quarterback on the first PP would make a huge impact for the whole unit.

Definitely some differences

Laine with Boqvist over the last 3 years on the PP:
8.38 G/60
22.67 HDCF/60
55.32 SCF/60
HDGF/60 0.91
7.75 On-Ice SH%

Laine with Werenski over the last 3 years on the PP:
7.35 G/60
17.52 HDCF/60
50.03 SCF/60
4.52 HDGF/60
12.81 On-Ice SH%

 

[Cowumbus]

You're not attempting to solve the problem. You want to point at the problem but do nothing about it.

Either that's because you know it could be better as evidenced by his career and other working PPs that utilize a RH main shot with RHD feeding them....or you just don't understand that he could be used any better.

If you're not for solving problems, just complaining, then we have nothing to discuss. My approach is "how to fix it", yours is "I want to blame Laine"

The problem is that you lied when you said he’sthe top PP producer.

@majormajor posted about wanting PP overtime for guys like Marchenko, Gaudreau, Fantilli and your response was “There is nobody better for the 1st PP in this roster. Nobody over produces him. That's the end all, be all argument.” Which is a lie, as you agreed.

If you want to talk about ways to increase Laine’s production go ahead.

But having other players on the team producing better than Laine on the PP is not a “problem” to me. It is a team game after all.

I want Boqvist on the top PP too, but that is not for solely helping Laine. He’s just more effective.

 

[Marioesque]

The problem is that you lied when you said he’sthe top PP producer.

@majormajor posted about wanting PP overtime for guys like Marchenko, Gaudreau, Fantilli and your response was “There is nobody better for the 1st PP in this roster. Nobody over produces him. That's the end all, be all argument.” Which is a lie, as you agreed.

If you want to talk about ways to increase Laine’s production go ahead.

But having other players on the team producing better than Laine on the PP is not a “problem” to me. It is a team game after all.

I want Boqvist on the top PP too, but that is not for solely helping Laine. He’s just more effective.

No no, you cherry picking data is the lie.

He is the proven best out of them if you don't ignore career.

If you cherry pick data to drive a narrative, you can make an argument that someone else at main shooting position on left or right circle can produce more than Laine at RD on PP.

What the hell do you think that proves? Nobody here is arguing that Laine on RD or PP2 is going to outproduce people playing much closer to the goal on PP.

It's a pointless argument. Sure you can make him less effective if you try. Why would you try, is the question?

All things equal, it's most beneficial for the team to maximize Laine's shot output, as it is a known difference maker, much more so than other people's shots. If you have one shot to take, you want it to be taken by him because it has the best chance of going in. It's simple math.

This would benefit the team. Maximizing Laine’s special talent benefits the team he is on.

I don't get why it's so hard to understand. It seems some would rather not see him succeed even if that means team suffers. It's ridiculous, childish even.

There is no downside in getting the best out of Laine, using him to max potential. If you can think of a reason not to, let me know.

It isn't "we have better options " because we don't

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

You're cherry picking data, leaving out most of his career. You're not comparing Laine with Werenski on point vs. Laine with Boqvist because that would be the correct way of analyzing it.

I've told you what "garbage in, garbage out" is right?

Nobody "adjusts" to having onetimer taken out of your arsenal. Ovechkin on RD in PP would not produce like Laine has from that position. Having either one of them as RD on PP is lunacy. That's what needs fixed

To be fair, you’ve been cherry picking data as well, based on your opinion of Laine being used properly or not.

 

[Marioesque]

To be fair, you’ve been cherry picking data as well, based on your opinion of Laine being used properly or not.

I have?

Can you explain?

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I have?

Can you explain?

Yes. You have been cherry picking data by tossing out numbers that show Laine is being out produced. You are suggesting they don’t matter because they were accumulated while Laine wasn’t being used properly.

I mean, that’s still cherry picking.

There is a discussion to be had about Laine’s usage. There is also, in my opinion, a discussion to be had about whether Laine’s early-career stats are any more or less germane to the issue that Laine’s usage.

 

[Marioesque]

Yes. You have been cherry picking data by tossing out numbers that show Laine is being out produced. You are suggesting they don’t matter because they were accumulated while Laine wasn’t being used properly.

I mean, that’s still cherry picking.

There is a discussion to be had about Laine’s usage. There is also, in my opinion, a discussion to be had about whether Laine’s early-career stats are any more or less germane to the issue that Laine’s usage.

No that's apples to apples.

We don't have data of say Marchenko on RD in PP. Laine’s usage was RD position in PP last time I saw it.

You can't compare someone who works on the blueline to those who work the sides or bumper position. They will always score more than anyone from blueline. Marchenko in the OV office is going to have better numbers than Laine at RD position.

But Laine in OV office overproduces the competition.

That's not cherry picking, that's understanding context. Context and detail is important

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

No that's apples to apples.

We don't have data of say Marchenko on RD in PP. Laine’s usage was RD position in PP last time I saw it.

You can't compare someone who works on the blueline to those who work the sides or bumper position. They will always score more than anyone from blueline. Marchenko in the OV office is going to have better numbers than Laine at RD position.

But Laine in OV office overproduces the competition.

That's not cherry picking, that's understanding context. Context and detail is important

Comical. As if all of the data you’ve been presented with that counters your opinions isn’t “context and detail”. Yet you call that “cherry picking.”

In the words of a George Carlin, “Have you ever noticed that other people’s stuff is shit and your shit is stuff?”

 

[Marioesque]

Comical. As if all of the data you’ve been presented with that counters your opinions isn’t “context and detail”. Yet you call that “cherry picking.”

In the words of a George Carlin, “Have you ever noticed that other people’s stuff is shit and your shit is stuff?”

Obviously it's not a detailed enough comparison if it doesn't differentiate between positions.

 

[Cowumbus]

Obviously it's not a detailed enough comparison if it doesn't differentiate between positions.

Position doesn’t matter regarding point totals / scoring rates when talking about who is producing the most on the PP. Holy s*** man it’s not that hard.

Imagine saying Trae Young (PG) is the best scorer in the NBA this year. Then someone corrects you and says no actually there are better scorers, such as Joel Embid (C). Then your response is, no “obviously it's not a detailed enough comparison if it doesn't differentiate between positions.” As if the total points you score needs to be considered by position you play on the court. Cherry picked data lmao, give me a break.

In the words of a George Carlin, “Have you ever noticed that other people’s stuff is shit and your shit is stuff?”

Garbage in = anything I don’t agree with
Garbage out = anyone else’s opinion
Marchenko’s tipped PP goal tonight is worth less than a Laine goal from the blueline. Whats so hard to understand about that?

 

[VT]

I'm starting to get chaotic.

 

[Halfboard]

Again, all this discussion is about a guy with 6 goals. Six.

 

[VT]

Again, all this discussion is about a guy with 6 goals. Six.

Marchenko has 6+2 (both goals in PP) in last 18 games but 2+2 in last 15 games. Both goals are in PP.
Gaudreau has 3+12 in lat 18 games but 5 (0+5) in last 10 games

Both players are health, did not concussion.

Also this player had great stats in the last two season, especially in second.

 

[VT]

Again, all this discussion is about a guy with 6 goals. Six.

Laine has 6 goals and 3 assists in 18 games, 3+1 in last 5 games

Marchenko has 6+2 in last 18 games (one hattrick) and 1+0 in his last 5 games and 2+1 in games after his hattrick (15)
Gaudreau has 3+12 in last 18 games, but 0+5 from from the start this year (10 games) and 0+4 in his last 5 games

Both were health, did not have concussion.

I know there are advanced stats, but @Halfboard was talking about goals. Besides, this is Laine's 5th season, and he's played perfectly in the last two, especially last season. I wonder how many points and goals (+advanced stats) Matthews would have scored if he was playing here and had similarly stupid injuries like Patrik. I'm not saying that worse, just interested.