Player Discussion: Patrik Laine IVever: a new hope? (Laine out of PAP, trade request still stands)

[Cowumbus]

Marchenko played a little bit in the NHL and had too high of a SH% last season. That's changing this season, for example since his hat trick against Buffalo he's only had one goal in 13 games and that was on the PP.

Laine has 1 PP goal this year, in 18 GP. Laine shots are averaging 13 feet further away than Marchy’s on the PP.

Maybe that’s why they moved Laine to his off-side, to try and get him to shoot closer to the net.

Also, don't forget that Kirill played most of the games on the PP, which actually played very well last season.

I don’t understand your point.

Jenner's goals are from a different position.

What does that matter? You don’t have to score from 1-timers coming from the half-wall. Tomas Holmström was a great PP player and scored a crap ton from in front of the net.

Remember:
My post was about wanting to understand the logic behind saying that Laine outproduces everyone on the PP.

 

[VT]

Laine has 1 PP goal this year, in 18 GP. Laine shots are averaging 13 feet further away than Marchy’s on the PP.

Maybe that’s why they moved Laine to his off-side, to try and get him to shoot closer to the net.

I don’t understand your point.

What does that matter? You don’t have to score from 1-timers coming from the half-wall. Tomas Holmström was a great PP player and scored a crap ton from in front of the net.

Remember:
My post was about wanting to understand the logic behind saying that Laine outproduces everyone on the PP.

I don't know how one can comment on this season in the case of Laine, who had a brain injury (because concussion is it).
---
PP improved in the second half of the season, PP Unit:

Jenner
Laine Marchenko Gaudreau
Boqvist

played very well
---
Yes, just moving Ovechkin to the right side had similar reason. But I'd try putting Laine in his position first. He's been out with head injuries for a long time.

 

[Cowumbus]

I don't know how one can comment on this season in the case of Laine, who had a brain injury (because concussion is it).

I don’t think you read my post then, as I talked about 3 seasons worth of Laine’s play.

 

[Marioesque]

Can you help me to better understand what you mean exactly?

I don't know why any of this needs any explanation. He's by far the best shot. He's produced better than any of the others on PP in his career. The threat of his shot opens more room for others on the line.

This is like asking why Steven Stamkos is on
PP over like JT Compher or something.

If Laine takes a shot on PP it's far more likely to go in than say Johnnys shot, or Marchenkos, Chinakhovs.

 

[thebus88]

Laine has 1 PP goal this year, in 18 GP. Laine shots are averaging 13 feet further away than Marchy’s on the PP.

Maybe that’s why they moved Laine to his off-side, to try and get him to shoot closer to the net.

Filatov went to the net and “danger areas” more frequently than Laine. Other than his LACK of “hockey IQ”, his lack of ability or effort to get involved anywhere near the net is probably the biggest thing holding Laine back as a player. No versatility as a player.

Gaudreau also having his issues regarding his intensity around the net or in the offensive zone altogether is the simplest reason why they were/are not effective with each other. Jenner, or any other center, can’t do the work for them in front of the net AND the corners.

A common defense of him is that he “doesn’t need to get close to the net” to score goals. Well, it sure would help. He and his shot ARE NOT prime Alex Ovechkin, and he does NOT beat goalies from distance consistently, or score enough goals overall to play the way he does, or have his shot be perceived in the way it is.

The JJ Moser’s and Charlie Lindgren’s of the world have NO ISSUES shutting down “superstar Laine” on the PP, whether some of you like to acknowledge it or not.

Can’t wait for the trade so everyone can move on and we can start winning games again.

 

[Marioesque]

I don’t think you read my post then, as I talked about 3 seasons worth of Laine’s play.

What Laine can really do on PP is when there's a RHD on the point. Him playing as RD with Werenski is a horrible way of utilizing him, although against all odds he has also scored from there.

If you want to see what he can do on PP, watch him with a RHD in it. It worked well with Boqvist, it has worked with other RHD.

 

[Marioesque]

Filatov went to the net and “danger areas” more frequently than Laine. Other than his LACK of “hockey IQ”, his lack of ability or effort to get involved anywhere near the net is probably the biggest thing holding Laine back as a player. No versatility as a player.

Gaudreau also having his issues regarding his intensity around the net or in the offensive zone altogether is the simplest reason why they were/are not effective with each other. Jenner, or any other center, can’t do the work for them in front of the net AND the corners.

A common defense of him is that he “doesn’t need to get close to the net” to score goals. Well, it sure would help. He and his shot ARE NOT prime Alex Ovechkin, and he does NOT beat goalies from distance consistently, or score enough goals overall to play the way he does, or have his shot be perceived in the way it is.

The JJ Moser’s and Charlie Lindgren’s of the world have NO ISSUES shutting down “superstar Laine” on the PP, whether some of you like to acknowledge it or not.

Can’t wait for the trade so everyone can move on and we can start winning games again.

Oh yeah because he's been out there losing games lately? Lol

I do feel like after every game they have lost when he's been out that you guys must still be blaming those losses on his bad play. Seems to track.

And there's no era Ovechkin that had a better shot than Laine. Ovie is a volume shooter, he was never a top shot in the league, not on his prime or any other time. Stamkos was posting much higher shot percentage than OV, so does Laine. Ovie wasn't the best Russian either for shots, Semin and Kovalchuk were better individual shots

Ovechkin has been married to John Carlson on PP since he started. That has never been changed. They are smart. Their PP was just getting shots from Ovie. If you do that with Laine, production will be higher. This has only happened in CBJ when Zach has been out, because he's the main shot in his mind when he runs the PP.

Not using a player to their strengths is stupid, but I see some argue for that stupidity. I think you guys enjoy when he's in the wrong spot on PP just because it keeps his numbers artificially lower than they would be if correctly used.

This is actually a totally unique highlight reel, if you compare to other snipers.



If you look at any other high scoring shooters highlight reel it doesn't look anything like his. Most goalscorers score from much closer. If you find anything comparable let me know. Players with almost exclusively snipes from distance.

Check Ovechkin, his is totally different

 

[thebus88]

Oh yeah because he's been out there losing games lately? Lol

I do feel like after every game they have lost when he's been out that you guys must still be blaming those losses on his bad play. Seems to track.

And there's no era Ovechkin that had a better shot than Laine. Ovie is a volume shooter, he was never a top shot in the league, not on his prime or any other time. Stamkos was posting much higher shot percentage than OV, so does Laine.

Ovechkin has been married to John Carlson on PP since he started. That has never been changed. Their PP was just getting shots from Ovie. If you do that with Laine, production will be higher

Yes, if the team could spend $8+ million to use on and play a different player or 2, the team would be BETTER.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THERES MORE TO HOCKEY THAN ONE TIMERS FROM A STATIONARY POSITION!?!

I could make the case that Laine IS THE PROBLEM while on the PP, not the other players. The reason why or how Ovechkin was still able to get open to be able to get all those shots off, even while being such a huge target from the opposing D, is because of his “brain” or “hockey IQ” and his ability to read opposing players or defensive systems AND his willingness to adapt on the ice.

Not only does Laine not have the willingness to attack different areas on the ice to keep the defense 2nd guessing AND OPEN UP SPACE FOR HIMSELF, he simply lacks simple common intelligence and awareness (and an adequate effort level) to make SMALL adjustments on the ice and move his feet enough to open passing lanes for himself consistently, or make the correct decision/ shot when he does in fact get the puck.

 

[Marioesque]

Yes, if the team could spend $8+ million to use on and play a different player or 2, the team would be BETTER.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THERES MORE TO HOCKEY THAN ONE TIMERS FROM A STATIONARY POSITION!?!

I could make the case that Laine IS THE PROBLEM while on the PP, not the other players. The reason why or how Ovechkin was still able to get open to be able to get all those shots off, even while being such a huge target from the opposing D, is because of his “brain” or “hockey IQ” and his ability to read opposing players or defensive systems AND his willingness to adapt on the ice.

Not only does Laine not have the willingness to attack different areas on the ice to keep the defense 2nd guessing AND OPEN UP SPACE FOR HIMSELF, he simply lacks simple common intelligence and awareness (and an adequate effort level) to make SMALL adjustments on the ice and move his feet enough to open passing lanes for himself consistently, or make the correct decision/ shot when he does in fact get the puck.

I could make up the case that MacKinnon is the problem in avs PP. It would be stupid but it can be claimed.

Laine is an excellent playmaker on top of his shooting. He creates high danger chances better than the others do.

Your argument has always been about how he looks to your eyes. "Move his feet" yeah he does, check edge stats.

Are you going to say Caps did it wrong for 20 years feeding STATIONARY Ovechkin?

Laine's problem is he doesn't use his shot enough. He makes too many plays instead of taking the shot.

Laine is a "work smarter" and you're a "work harder".

 

[Cowumbus]

I don't know why any of this needs any explanation. He's by far the best shot.

You are claiming something to be true that the data and eye-test says otherwise, without showing any reasoning behind your stance other than “Laine was good on the PP in Winnipeg.”

He's produced better than any of the others on PP in his career.

You keep saying this and it’s not true for any of his time in Columbus. 5-7 years ago this might be the case, but not now.

This is like asking why Steven Stamkos is on
PP over like JT Compher or something.

Marchenko and Chinakhov are different players than Compher, and you know that.

If Laine takes a shot on PP it's far more likely to go in than say Johnnys shot, or Marchenkos, Chinakhovs.

Based on what? His time in Winnipeg? Over his tenure with the Jackets I have already shown you the data that highlights this not being the case.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

 

[Cowumbus]

Laine is an excellent playmaker on top of his shooting. He creates high danger chances better than the others do.

He’s 13th on the CBJ PP forward rankings for iHDCF and 21st in iHDCF/60 since 21-22. He’s ranked 3rd in PP assists since 21-22 but 50% of them are secondary assists. IPP is 6th, behind Kent Johnson.

That sucks. Why couldn’t he just stay with the team though?

 

[Marioesque]

You are claiming something to be true that the data and eye-test says otherwise, without showing any reasoning behind your stance other than “Laine was good on the PP in Winnipeg.”

You keep saying this and it’s not true for any of his time in Columbus. 5-7 years ago this might be the case, but not now.

Marchenko and Chinakhov are different players than Compher, and you know that.

Based on what? His time in Winnipeg? Over his tenure with the Jackets I have already shown you the data that highlights this not being the case.

Are you seriously trying to suggest Marchenko or Chinakhovare better shooters than Laine, that they produce more on PP when everything is equal?

As I have pointed out several times, Laine's PP usage in CBJ has been the problem the team needs to fix it (by using Boqvist instead of Werenski on point) and he'll be one of the best PP producers in the league as he usually is when paired with a RHD.

You're basically using the example of Laine with one hand tied behind his back, and pretending that's his level in PP now. When he plays RD spot in PP, that eliminates one-timer completely. That's idiocy.

The ability hasn't gone anywhere. If you use him wrong you get worse results than you would if you used him correctly. That's the issue. Some of you want to continue misusing him, I certainly don't agree and I think it's extremely stupid to NOT try to get the most out of a player.

The PP worked so much better with Boqvist in it. This isn't a Laine problem. The problem is Werenski on PP1. He should run PP2 with Johnny.

 

[Cowumbus]

Are you seriously trying to suggest Marchenko or Chinakhovare better shooters than Laine, that they produce more on PP when everything is equal?

I’m suggesting that they and others shoot at a similar (or worse) level, but are in better locations when shooting the puck, and score more, as the data shows. I don’t want them taking shots from 40+ feet away.

As I have pointed out several times, Laine's PP usage in CBJ has been the problem the team needs to fix it (by using Boqvist instead of Werenski on point) and he'll be one of the best PP producers in the league as he usually is when paired with a RHD.

Ok.

You're basically using the example of Laine with one hand tied behind his back, and pretending that's his level in PP now. When he plays RD spot in PP, that eliminates one-timer completely. That's idiocy.

Whats the saying, “good players adjust?”

I used 3+ seasons of data with Laine here.

It sounds like you agree then that he is not the most productive PP person on the roster. However you believe he could be with changes to our strategy.

 

[thebus88]

, I certainly don't agree and I think it's extremely stupid to NOT try to get the most out of a player.

What about, “trying to get the most” out of other players, or the team overall….??

Or is the solution to that also just getting the puck to Laine to shoot??

If hockey games were won by shooting at targets from the top of the circle’s like the skills competition, some of the things said about Laine would be more accurate. Unfortunately for him and the fan club that’s not how things work.

 

[VT]

That sucks. Why couldn’t he just stay with the team though?

They probably want him to start regenerating again.

 

[thebus88]

Are you seriously trying to suggest Marchenko or Chinakhovare better shooters than Laine, that they produce more on PP when everything is equal?

To be clear, Chinakhov is in the same tier of shooter as Laine 100%. His skating (that he has improved quite significantly the last 2/3 years) is better than both Marchenko and Laine.

While Marchenko isn’t as skilled or heavy of a shooter as the other guys, he has very good shooting ACCURACY, along with a good/unique release. However, I’d consider Marchenko as probably in the same tier of goal scorer as the other 2, as he adds some different aspects, mostly around the net, but also a level of “energy” that neither Chinakhov/Laine bring to the ice.

 

[Marioesque]

I’m suggesting that they and others shoot at a similar (or worse) level, but are in better locations when shooting the puck, and score more, as the data shows. I don’t want them taking shots from 40+ feet away.

Ok.

Whats the saying, “good players adjust?”

I used 3+ seasons of data with Laine here.

It sounds like you agree then that he is not the most productive PP person on the roster. However you believe he could be with changes to our strategy.

You're cherry picking data, leaving out most of his career. You're not comparing Laine with Werenski on point vs. Laine with Boqvist because that would be the correct way of analyzing it.

I've told you what "garbage in, garbage out" is right?

Nobody "adjusts" to having onetimer taken out of your arsenal. Ovechkin on RD in PP would not produce like Laine has from that position. Having either one of them as RD on PP is lunacy. That's what needs fixed

 

[Marioesque]

To be clear, Chinakhov is in the same tier of shooter as Laine 100%. His skating (that he has improved quite significantly the last 2/3 years) is better than both Marchenko and Laine.

While Marchenko isn’t as skilled or heavy of a shooter as the other guys, he has very good shooting ACCURACY, along with a good/unique release. However, I’d consider Marchenko as probably in the same tier of goal scorer as the other 2, as he adds some different aspects, mostly around the net, but also a level of “energy” that neither Chinakhov/Laine bring to the ice.

Chinakhov shoots as hard as Laine, his accuracy is far worse. But so is anyone's so it's not a knock on Chinny. He's one of the hardest shots in the league with Laine. He absolutely can't snipe like Laine, there's both of their careers so far to prove that.

 

[Cowumbus]

You're cherry picking data, leaving out most of his career. You're not comparing Laine with Werenski on point vs. Laine with Boqvist because that would be the correct way of analyzing it.

I've told you what "garbage in, garbage out" is right?

Nobody "adjusts" to having onetimer taken out of your arsenal. Ovechkin on RD in PP would not produce like Laine has from that position. Having either one of them as RD on PP is lunacy. That's what needs fixed

If you think ignoring the 4 years worth of data for Laine’s time in Columbus is the only way to not have “garbage” data, than I’m not sure I can attempt to have a logical conversation with you.

All the best man!

 

[Marioesque]

You guys should check out edge stats to see where Laine PP shots have come from this season and see for yourself why he's not properly used. It's crazy that he has scored a couple from RD with wristers from distance, but that's because his shooting is crazy.

If his onetimer is fed on the left, he instantly bumps this PP to over 25%

If you think ignoring the 4 years worth of data for Laine’s time in Columbus is the only way to not have “garbage” data, than I’m not sure I can attempt to have a logical conversation with you.

All the best man!

You're totally ignoring the usage part of the argument because it doesn't fit the narrative you want to convince me of.

Yeah I don't think logic fits you well. You have convinced yourself with cherry picked data, and you won't recognize the arguments against your position.

Laine at RD or Laine on left with a LHD on point is NOT what I am suggesting to continue. It's shit compared to Laine on left with RHD on point. I want to move away from the bad configuration to a known good configuration.

You're ignoring the existence of that issue, using data from bad configuration to justify your view

 

[Cowumbus]

Yeah I don't think logic fits you well.

Right.

You have convinced yourself with cherry picked data, and you won't recognize the arguments against your position.

The Burden of Proof Fallacy​

16 Common Logical Fallacies and How to Spot Them

Logical fallacies might be hiding in your daily conversations. Learn how to identify everyday logical fallacies and improve your argumentation skills.

blog.hubspot.com

 

[Marioesque]

The Burden of Proof Fallacy​

16 Common Logical Fallacies and How to Spot Them

Logical fallacies might be hiding in your daily conversations. Learn how to identify everyday logical fallacies and improve your argumentation skills.

blog.hubspot.com

That's not a reply to anything I said. Try again.

You're trying to sell lazy/bad emotional analysis to the wrong guy

 

[Cowumbus]

That's not a reply to anything I said. Try again.

You're trying to sell lazy/bad emotional analysis to the wrong guy

I’m not emotional. I’m the only one who’s used data in this entire conversation. But I am apparently the illogical one.

There is nobody better for the 1st line or 1st PP in this roster. Nobody over produces him.

^^You said it man, not me!^^​

The Burden of Proof Fallacy​

16 Common Logical Fallacies and How to Spot Them

Logical fallacies might be hiding in your daily conversations. Learn how to identify everyday logical fallacies and improve your argumentation skills.

blog.hubspot.com

I asked you to explain why, and you came up with nothing other than 3rd grade name calling or personal attacks on intelligence/logic.

 

[Marioesque]

I’m not emotional. I’m the only one who’s used data in this entire conversation. But I am apparently the illogical one.

The Burden of Proof Fallacy​

16 Common Logical Fallacies and How to Spot Them

Logical fallacies might be hiding in your daily conversations. Learn how to identify everyday logical fallacies and improve your argumentation skills.

blog.hubspot.com

You said it man, not me.

You just keep ignoring the argument. I understand, it's kinda impossible to argue against but would be cool if you were capable of addressing it. Maybe you could logically explain why we should continue with bad configuration.

And Laine being the main weapon in PP doesn't mean Marchenko or Chinakhov couldn't be in the same unit. The handedness fits for them, only thing that might limit it is Chinnys passing ability but I think he could be the right wall guy and open for onetimers. Laine is the best one to set him up on the opposite side.

If you're looking for a Fallacy befitting this conversation, here's the one you need to know about and learn about and maybe recognize

Recency bias - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org